3L classes for clerkship Forum

[Anonymous User]

Any suggestions for a fed dist clerkship besides the usual fed courts and district clerk writing seminar?

[Holly Golightly]

Take things that interest you. You have to learn a lot for each case anyway. Getting fedjur and civ pro are enough.

[Anonymous User]

I wish I had taken:

Admin
Employment
IP

-Current Dist Ct clerk

[Anonymous User]

Bankruptcy appeals are a major pain if you've never taken a bankruptcy class.

Title VII comes up a TON.

[Anonymous User]

My district hears a hell of a lot of 1983 cases. Even paying attention during the qualified immunity section of fed courts would've helped me immensely, but a Civil Rights class would have been ideal.

-Current D. Ct. Clerk, but not the one above

[Anonymous User]

If I could go back and do it again, having finished up my d. ct. clerkship:

Civil rights
Securities
Evidence
Crim Pro
First Amendment

(some of those I took)

[Citizen Genet]

If I were designing 2L and 3L classes specifically around preparing for a clerkship, here is what I would do. I am assuming that your judge has you work on both civil and criminal matters. (That's not true of all judges.)

Definitely Take No Matter What
Federal Courts, Advanced Civil Procedure
Evidence
Statutory Interpretation
Criminal Procedure I (Investigation, covering 4th-5th Amendment)
Criminal Procedure II (Litigation, covering 5th-8th Amendment and procedure)
Conflicts of Law
Remedies
Administrative Law
Employment Law

Definitely Take If You're In A Market With Major Commercial Litigation
Business Associations
Complex Civil Litigation / Class Action Litigation

Try To Fit These In
Civil Rights Litigation (especially if 1983 is not covered in-depth in FedCourts)
Bankruptcy
Intellectual Property*** (if your judge is a patent pilot program judge, then make this a definitely have to take; otherwise, do it if you have the time)
Discovery
First Amendment
Secured Transactions
Securities Regulation and Litigation

That is about 55-62 credits worth of classes. Other clerks, did I miss anything?

[Anonymous User]

If I were designing 2L and 3L classes specifically around preparing for a clerkship, here is what I would do. I am assuming that your judge has you work on both civil and criminal matters. (That's not true of all judges.)

Definitely Take No Matter What
Federal Courts, Advanced Civil Procedure
Evidence
Statutory Interpretation
Criminal Procedure I (Investigation, covering 4th-5th Amendment)
Criminal Procedure II (Litigation, covering 5th-8th Amendment and procedure)
Conflicts of Law
Remedies
Administrative Law
Employment Law

Definitely Take If You're In A Market With Major Commercial Litigation
Business Associations
Complex Civil Litigation / Class Action Litigation

Try To Fit These In
Civil Rights Litigation (especially if 1983 is not covered in-depth in FedCourts)
Bankruptcy
Intellectual Property*** (if your judge is a patent pilot program judge, then make this a definitely have to take; otherwise, do it if you have the time)
Discovery
First Amendment
Secured Transactions
Securities Regulation and Litigation

That is about 55-62 credits worth of classes. Other clerks, did I miss anything?

Clerk who recommended a 1983 civil rights course here. This is a very good list, except that my law school didn't have several of these (that sound fascinating, by the way).

If the courses he calls "discovery" and "advanced civil lit" are in-depth civ pro classes that focus on the federal rules, then absolutely take them. If by "advanced civil lit" he means "complex civil lit," then, as much as I super-enjoyed that class and get some use out of it in my clerkship, I can't say it really makes the list. (If your district is MDL-heavy, though, maybe that's another story.)

All I'll add is that some highly important clerkship stuff--First Amendment law leaps to mind--is actually covered pretty well by bar exam prep, assuming you're taking the bar pre-clerkship (which I'm an advocate for). Other than Evidence, I think you could probably forgo the classes covered by the MBE. Just my opinion.

[timmyd]

The lists look good. I know I should take employment law and fed courts is a must. I'm thinking about dropping FIT for admin if I still can. I really wanted to take FIT because of its practical value, but I just cannot see it being of much value for the clerkship.

[Citizen Genet]

The lists look good. I know I should take employment law and fed courts is a must. I'm thinking about dropping FIT for admin if I still can. I really wanted to take FIT because of its practical value, but I just cannot see it being of much value for the clerkship.

Now, whether you should be taking classes just to gear things toward the clerkship, that's a whole different story. If you plan on going into a field where tax would be useful, it might be worth overlooking admin. (Side note: admin is helpful because if you work on any admin issues -- immigration is a big one -- you will have a sense of where you are. Without it, you'll be in a totally different world. But depending on the district, admin issues may not come up that often.)

[Anonymous User]

If I were designing 2L and 3L classes specifically around preparing for a clerkship, here is what I would do. I am assuming that your judge has you work on both civil and criminal matters. (That's not true of all judges.)

Definitely Take No Matter What
Federal Courts, Advanced Civil Procedure
Evidence
Statutory Interpretation
Criminal Procedure I (Investigation, covering 4th-5th Amendment)
Criminal Procedure II (Litigation, covering 5th-8th Amendment and procedure)
Conflicts of Law
Remedies
Administrative Law
Employment Law

Definitely Take If You're In A Market With Major Commercial Litigation
Business Associations
Complex Civil Litigation / Class Action Litigation

Try To Fit These In
Civil Rights Litigation (especially if 1983 is not covered in-depth in FedCourts)
Bankruptcy
Intellectual Property*** (if your judge is a patent pilot program judge, then make this a definitely have to take; otherwise, do it if you have the time)
Discovery
First Amendment
Secured Transactions
Securities Regulation and Litigation

That is about 55-62 credits worth of classes. Other clerks, did I miss anything?

Clerk who recommended a 1983 civil rights course here. This is a very good list, except that my law school didn't have several of these (that sound fascinating, by the way).

If the courses he calls "discovery" and "advanced civil lit" are in-depth civ pro classes that focus on the federal rules, then absolutely take them. If by "advanced civil lit" he means "complex civil lit," then, as much as I super-enjoyed that class and get some use out of it in my clerkship, I can't say it really makes the list. (If your district is MDL-heavy, though, maybe that's another story.)

All I'll add is that some highly important clerkship stuff--First Amendment law leaps to mind--is actually covered pretty well by bar exam prep, assuming you're taking the bar pre-clerkship (which I'm an advocate for). Other than Evidence, I think you could probably forgo the classes covered by the MBE. Just my opinion.

D. ct. clerk here and I agree with most of this.

I wish there had been a class that really, really focused on pleadings/12b6's/MSJs. You see pleading issues repeatedly in every court and it's bizarre to me that they are not nailed down in law school. Figuring out how to sufficiently plead/attack an insufficiently pled complaint or motion is the bread and butter of what clerks do, at least in my court.

Re: substantive law classes. I am very, very glad I took Evidence and Trial Objections (basically Evidence II). I can't believe Evidence is a required 1L class, but I digress. I can't really say I wish I had taken any others or found any particularly useful. And I didn't take Fed Courts or Admin, which everyone swears you need as a clerk. A 1983 class probably wouldn't have hurt, but I don't find that area of the law to be particularly confusing. And it's often such a mess in my circuit (9th) that you really have to do your research and keep up with the new opinions.

Ultimately, I think the absolute most important thing you can do is learn to write well. This requires taking moot court/trial ad type classes--ones where you do pleadings. I also cannot recommend more interning with judges, particularly at the COA level, especially if it's one who will let you draft decisions. IMO, just about anyone can be a good clerk if they know how to write well and think through a case thoroughly. I don't think any elective classes are necessary at all to be a successful clerk.

[Prosecutor]

Definitely Take No Matter What
Federal Courts, Advanced Civil Procedure
Evidence
Statutory Interpretation
Criminal Procedure I (Investigation, covering 4th-5th Amendment)
Criminal Procedure II (Litigation, covering 5th-8th Amendment and procedure)
Conflicts of Law
Remedies
Administrative Law
Employment Law

Are these ranked in order of importance, or how would you rank them?

[Anonymous User]

If I were designing 2L and 3L classes specifically around preparing for a clerkship, here is what I would do. I am assuming that your judge has you work on both civil and criminal matters. (That's not true of all judges.)

Definitely Take No Matter What
Federal Courts, Advanced Civil Procedure
Evidence
Statutory Interpretation
Criminal Procedure I (Investigation, covering 4th-5th Amendment)
Criminal Procedure II (Litigation, covering 5th-8th Amendment and procedure)
Conflicts of Law
Remedies
Administrative Law
Employment Law

Definitely Take If You're In A Market With Major Commercial Litigation
Business Associations
Complex Civil Litigation / Class Action Litigation

Try To Fit These In
Civil Rights Litigation (especially if 1983 is not covered in-depth in FedCourts)
Bankruptcy
Intellectual Property*** (if your judge is a patent pilot program judge, then make this a definitely have to take; otherwise, do it if you have the time)
Discovery
First Amendment
Secured Transactions
Securities Regulation and Litigation

That is about 55-62 credits worth of classes. Other clerks, did I miss anything?

Conflicts was not taught at my law school, so I didn't have a choice in the matter anyway, but it did not come up in a serious way in either of my clerkships (appellate or district). Employment Law would be very practical but it's not especially complex and you'll quickly pick up on it yourself due to the high volume of employment cases. Otherwise I largely agree except that I might move admin down.

But I would move up bankruptcy to a "definitely take" *if* you are clerking on SDNY or D Del, which are overwhelmingly the most common venues for complex Chapter 11 cases (which can be forum shopped by design). Plus bankruptcy is pretty intellectually interesting.

[Anonymous User]

Is there a meaningful difference in clerkship prospects between taking one of these "definitely take" classes, or getting 4 pass/fail credits for externing with a federal judge during the semester?

[nixy]

Is there a meaningful difference in clerkship prospects between taking one of these "definitely take" classes, or getting 4 pass/fail credits for externing with a federal judge during the semester?

My take is, not in any straightforward, predictable way. Maybe the judge loves you and either helps get you a clerkship or hires you. Maybe you don't take one particular "definitely take" classes because of the externship and a judge who requires that class dings you. But overall, I don't think something that entails actual work outside of law school looks worse than a particular class (in other words, I don't think externing looks like filling your schedule with "Law and" seminars).

Besides, you can take the "definitely take" classes in other semesters. No one's going to have all of them.

[Anonymous User]

Is there a meaningful difference in clerkship prospects between taking one of these "definitely take" classes, or getting 4 pass/fail credits for externing with a federal judge during the semester?

My take is, not in any straightforward, predictable way. Maybe the judge loves you and either helps get you a clerkship or hires you. Maybe you don't take one particular "definitely take" classes because of the externship and a judge who requires that class dings you. But overall, I don't think something that entails actual work outside of law school looks worse than a particular class (in other words, I don't think externing looks like filling your schedule with "Law and" seminars).

Besides, you can take the "definitely take" classes in other semesters. No one's going to have all of them.

Assume I DON'T want to do the internship and would rather just do a class, but am wondering how meaningful the boost (if any) would be from doing it

[jotarokujo]

Is there a meaningful difference in clerkship prospects between taking one of these "definitely take" classes, or getting 4 pass/fail credits for externing with a federal judge during the semester?

My take is, not in any straightforward, predictable way. Maybe the judge loves you and either helps get you a clerkship or hires you. Maybe you don't take one particular "definitely take" classes because of the externship and a judge who requires that class dings you. But overall, I don't think something that entails actual work outside of law school looks worse than a particular class (in other words, I don't think externing looks like filling your schedule with "Law and" seminars).

Besides, you can take the "definitely take" classes in other semesters. No one's going to have all of them.

Assume I DON'T want to do the internship and would rather just do a class, but am wondering how meaningful the boost (if any) would be from doing it

the externship looks better than any one class other than fed courts, assuming you have a few of the "definitely takes".

and i wouldn't underestimate how fun/useful externing would be! I mean if you want to clerk, you probably are thinking you would enjoy clerking/think you will get skills from it (unless you are doing it solely for resume). therefore, externing would also be enjoyable/useful skills wise. if you are unsure if you would enjoy clerking, externing is a low cost way of determining that.

[nixy]

Is there a meaningful difference in clerkship prospects between taking one of these "definitely take" classes, or getting 4 pass/fail credits for externing with a federal judge during the semester?

My take is, not in any straightforward, predictable way. Maybe the judge loves you and either helps get you a clerkship or hires you. Maybe you don't take one particular "definitely take" classes because of the externship and a judge who requires that class dings you. But overall, I don't think something that entails actual work outside of law school looks worse than a particular class (in other words, I don't think externing looks like filling your schedule with "Law and" seminars).

Besides, you can take the "definitely take" classes in other semesters. No one's going to have all of them.

Assume I DON'T want to do the internship and would rather just do a class, but am wondering how meaningful the boost (if any) would be from doing it

I’m not as convinced that the internship looks better than any possible class as jotarokujo, but I do think it’s helpful for getting a sense of what clerking is like. It can be potentially very helpful because a good reference from a federal judge is great. But you might not get that (either you’re not that great or the judge is a jerk or you work primarily with the clerks and the judge doesn’t really end up with much to say about you).

I do think it’s important not to overestimate an internship - it’s not really going to move the needle on your candidacy, mostly because I’d guess that most clerkship applicants have done one. But I also think that work experience is way more valuable than classes, just generally speaking.

And finally it also depends on all your other experience and what you want to do long-term.

[Anonymous User]

Is there a meaningful difference in clerkship prospects between taking one of these "definitely take" classes, or getting 4 pass/fail credits for externing with a federal judge during the semester?

My take is, not in any straightforward, predictable way. Maybe the judge loves you and either helps get you a clerkship or hires you. Maybe you don't take one particular "definitely take" classes because of the externship and a judge who requires that class dings you. But overall, I don't think something that entails actual work outside of law school looks worse than a particular class (in other words, I don't think externing looks like filling your schedule with "Law and" seminars).

Besides, you can take the "definitely take" classes in other semesters. No one's going to have all of them.

Assume I DON'T want to do the internship and would rather just do a class, but am wondering how meaningful the boost (if any) would be from doing it

the externship looks better than any one class other than fed courts, assuming you have a few of the "definitely takes".

and i wouldn't underestimate how fun/useful externing would be! I mean if you want to clerk, you probably are thinking you would enjoy clerking/think you will get skills from it (unless you are doing it solely for resume). therefore, externing would also be enjoyable/useful skills wise. if you are unsure if you would enjoy clerking, externing is a low cost way of determining that.

Ehh I’d rather see a black-letter class than an externship, I think judges probably have different preferences

[Anonymous User]

OK, not a conclusive consensus by any means. I guess this just reflects that clerkship hiring depends on the whims of individual clerks and judges and is just somewhat idiosyncratic.

[jotarokujo]

Ehh I’d rather see a black-letter class than an externship, I think judges probably have different preferences

yeah fair enough. the grade in the black-letter class also matters, i think i was assuming an average grade like a B or something compared to a Pass in the externship. if both are pass, i would also pick the externship. an A in the black-letter class probably looks better to a lot (most?) of judges than a pass in an externship.