starting clerkship before bar?? helppp Forum

[Anonymous User]

I just got called to interview for a freshly confirmed fed dist judge in my home district (though not my home city, so slightly less than ideal). his current clerk called me, said that "they have already started working" when i asked about start date. i just graduated. set to take the bar in july. i also have a 3000 or so dollar 2 week trip booked for immediately after. TBH, i think I am a lock for a couple different state govt/prosecution which I have been shooting for from day 1 of LS, but they don't begin until end of August at earliest (hence me thinking booking the trip was safe). additionally, i already signed a lease in my part of the state for next year, but that's less of a concern.

I need advice on how to play this. this is the only fed d judge to call me to interview, and I am honored. that said, I think part of the reason somebody with my grades is getting called in is because he needs somebody immediately and is a bit desperate for somebody to begin right away.

If I have to start work for him immediately, I am fairly confident I will fail the bar. the commute is pretty long and it would take me a while to get a living set up in the area (in other words, I can't just study immediately after work every day). additionally, besides the money I spent for the bar, bailing from this trip will cost me a ton.

here are some questions i have:

Assuming he wants me to start before mid august, is it absurd to take this 2 week vacation? If not, this is probably something that I should mention AFTER i get the offer, right? Would it be a deal breaker even at that point?

Should I mention my bar-related concerns in my interview? Should I push for not starting till mid august in the interview? should i suggest part-time in the interview? what usually happens in these situations, assuming the judge is interested.

finally, let's say i get an offer, but i would have to begin work immediately. would it be absurd to ask to defer it for a year and begin summer of 2015 instead, given the housing situation, the bar exam situation, and to a lesser extent, the trip?

[rpupkin]

Do you want to clerk or not? If you do, forget your vacation and forget taking the bar in July. The judge is probably going to want you to start right away (or close to it).

[objctnyrhnr]

Do you want to clerk or not? If you do, forget your vacation and forget taking the bar in July. The judge is probably going to want you to start right away (or close to it).

you don't think that the judge would respect the bar thing and let me start in mid august? he knows i'm a recent graduate. wouldn't he expect me to take the bar in july? if i don't take the bar in july, i don't know when i would because this would go through the following august.

do you think that there is any chance that deferring a year (after all, most fed dist judges hire a year in advance) is an option?

[Citizen Genet]

Do you want to clerk or not? If you do, forget your vacation and forget taking the bar in July. The judge is probably going to want you to start right away (or close to it).

you don't think that the judge would respect the bar thing and let me start in mid august? he knows i'm a recent graduate. wouldn't he expect me to take the bar in july? if i don't take the bar in july, i don't know when i would because this would go through the following august.

do you think that there is any chance that deferring a year (after all, most fed dist judges hire a year in advance) is an option?

It's not that the judge doesn't respect taking the bar, it's that he may need someone to start right now. (Which is pretty good speculation.) If the judge needs someone to start, the judge needs someone to start. It's nothing personal or that he doesn't want you to do well, it's that he's drowning in new work and needs help.

I think you need to decide what you really want. If you want to clerk, then be willing to kick off the bar and the bar trip for someday later. If those aren't worth it to you, go into the interview, be polite, put your best foot forward, but indicate that you won't be able to start until after.

As for when you could do it -- February administration or next July might work, but you'll have to put the time in after hours to pass.

[Anonymous User]

My answer is based on my experience as a federal COA clerk. Go on the interview and see how it goes. If there's a good time to ask about your potential start date during your interview, ask about it (emphasizing your desire to take the bar and recover from it, not the trip). Most judges are reasonable, decent people who treat their clerks well. Almost all judges also want their clerks to take the bar before they begin clerking.

If the judge ends up wanting you to start right away, it comes down to how important it is for you to take the bar now (having already invested significant time and money in it). You could always practice for a year or two and apply for clerkships in the future; it's not a now-or-never decision. Practicing will make your grades matter less and make you more competitive with many judges.

Good luck!

[Anonymous User]

I want to start by thanking all of you for the advice so far. It has been really helpful.

Let's say he does want somebody to start right now. Would I be out of line to try to discuss a later start date and/or part time during the interview? Should this be something I discuss if and when I get the offer?

If he tells me he wants me to work for him immediately and can't bend on either of the above, would I be out of line trying to defer the offer to 2015-2016?

[Citizen Genet]

I want to start by thanking all of you for the advice so far. It has been really helpful.

Let's say he does want somebody to start right now. Would I be out of line to try to discuss a later start date and/or part time during the interview? Should this be something I discuss if and when I get the offer?

If he tells me he wants me to work for him immediately and can't bend on either of the above, would I be out of line trying to defer the offer to 2015-2016?

As a clerk, I'd be a bit annoyed if you didn't bring it up during the interview.

There's non-aggressive ways to bring it up. They will ask you if you have any questions, to which you can say, "I know you were recently appointed. What kind of timeline do you have for your clerk to start?" As for trying to negotiate a later start date, I think it goes back to your preferences. If you want to clerk enough that you don't mind sacrificing (by taking the bar and trip later), then I would not bring it up. Not knowing the judge in advance, I just think there's too high a chance you'll give the impression that clerking really isn't that important to you. If the bar and trip are more important to you, then you have nothing to lose and you can try to negotiate it all you like and should eventually make clear when you are willing to start.

[Anonymous User]

I want to start by thanking all of you for the advice so far. It has been really helpful.

Let's say he does want somebody to start right now. Would I be out of line to try to discuss a later start date and/or part time during the interview? Should this be something I discuss if and when I get the offer?

If he tells me he wants me to work for him immediately and can't bend on either of the above, would I be out of line trying to defer the offer to 2015-2016?

As a clerk, I'd be a bit annoyed if you didn't bring it up during the interview.

There's non-aggressive ways to bring it up. They will ask you if you have any questions, to which you can say, "I know you were recently appointed. What kind of timeline do you have for your clerk to start?" As for trying to negotiate a later start date, I think it goes back to your preferences. If you want to clerk enough that you don't mind sacrificing (by taking the bar and trip later), then I would not bring it up. Not knowing the judge in advance, I just think there's too high a chance you'll give the impression that clerking really isn't that important to you. If the bar and trip are more important to you, then you have nothing to lose and you can try to negotiate it all you like and should eventually make clear when you are willing to start.

And to the month of part time, or deferral of potential offer for a year? Do you think either one of those are viable?

[Holly Golightly]

Probably not.

I mean, if you don't want the clerkship now then sure, ask during the interview if the judge would consider hiring you for next year. Otherwise, no.

Also, it just doesn't really seem like you want this. Bar and bar trip seem more important to you, based on your posts. And if that's the case, don't do it.

[Anonymous User]

Probably not.

I mean, if you don't want the clerkship now then sure, ask during the interview if the judge would consider hiring you for next year. Otherwise, no.

Also, it just doesn't really seem like you want this. Bar and bar trip seem more important to you, based on your posts. And if that's the case, don't do it.

the bar exam is more important. of course, i want to become a practicing attorney. the bar trip is not important--i've already cancelled the flights (it was within 24 hours so this was possible). i can always book them again if I don't get the offer.

I mean don't we all want to become practicing attorneys? i want to pass the bar. if i don't pass the bar in july, do i really have a better chance at passing it in feb? the following july? I just don't think that I am out of line in saying that.

[Holly Golightly]

Passing the bar this July actually isn't at all important if you're clerking for a year. You can take it in February. I almost didn't even take the bar last summer. *shrug*

But if you think passing the bar this July is more important than a federal clerkship when you have nothing else lined up, then by all means turn it down.

[Elston Gunn]

The idea that you're considering turning down a federal clerkship without a job lined up because you want to take a licensing test you won't even need for at least a year is amazing to me.

It's perfectly reasonable to ask the judge post-offer if you can push your start date off until August (it's not rare for new judges to get by with only 1 clerk or whatever for a month or two), but be prepared for him/her to say no.

[AspiringAcademic]

I know a fair number of clerks who delayed the bar for a year, and I'm likely to do the same when my time comes. This need not be a big deal.

[Holly Golightly]

The idea that you're considering turning down a federal clerkship without a job lined up because you want to take a licensing test you won't even need for at least a year is amazing to me.

It's perfectly reasonable to ask the judge post-offer if you can push your start date off until August (it's not rare for new judges to get by with only 1 clerk or whatever for a month or two), but be prepared for him/her to say no.

I really don't think it's a great idea to ask. Offers can be revoked (and I have heard of clerkship offers getting revoked for asking to push off a start date). But again, it doesn't really seem like OP really cares. And I'm baffled by the bar concern, too.

[Elston Gunn]

The idea that you're considering turning down a federal clerkship without a job lined up because you want to take a licensing test you won't even need for at least a year is amazing to me.

It's perfectly reasonable to ask the judge post-offer if you can push your start date off until August (it's not rare for new judges to get by with only 1 clerk or whatever for a month or two), but be prepared for him/her to say no.

I really don't think it's a great idea to ask. Offers can be revoked (and I have heard of clerkship offers getting revoked for asking to push off a start date). But again, it doesn't really seem like OP really cares. And I'm baffled by the bar concern, too.

Geez, that seems crazily harsh. More to the story?

I think it would depend on the context in which the offer is given/what the judge says in an interview. If s/he make it clear they're looking for someone right away, then, yeah, don't ask. But, I don't know, I definitely know of at least one newly-confirmed judge who was willing to wait a month or two for his second clerk to start.

[Holly Golightly]

Yeah, it was pretty harsh and I don't know the full story, but I know it happens. I agree that if the judge seems flexible, asking to put off the start date or work PT as the OP suggested would probably be fine. But if the judge says they are looking for someone to start immediately, I don't think it's a good idea.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I think in the context of a new judge who's hiring off-schedule, it's perfectly reasonable to ask whether it's possible to put the start date off till after the bar, or maybe work part-time leading up to the bar. If you're interviewing now, the judge will understand that you've already applied to take the bar and signed up for the course and paid the application fee and so on. The judge may say no - they may either insist on someone who can start right away, or may just hire someone who can start right away - but I can't imagine it being inappropriate to ask, given that the schedule is so different from the usual hiring schedule.

I wouldn't ask about deferring for a year, myself, but that's just me.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. I have been studying for about a month now (started right after finals), and I do not think I will have a much better chance of passing the test in Feb or the following July than I will this july (even with working full time leading up to it) because I will have been working full time during both of these periods as well. I guess that's really my concern. So then, following the completion of the clerkship, I would worry about being in kind of a bad spot. I would not want to clerk again. I would want to practice, and the next bar I could take would be the FOLLOWING feb with results in...April? that's bordering on an entire lost year.

I know posters were skeptical of my concern, but that is it, in a nutshell. Is my logic flawed in some way?

[Holly Golightly]

Most people pass the bar and lots of people take bars while working. I just do not at all comprehend the freaking out about passing or the idea that passing the bar right now is more important than a fed clerkship when you don't have a job lined up.

Are WE missing something here? I would assume someone with good enough stats to get a clerkship interview, even last minute, doesn't need to be flipping the fuck out about bar passage.

[DELG]

Holy shit

Do you know like, nothing about the job market for recent grads

Do you think that passing the bar will somehow make decent legal employers want to hire you

Because, no

A clerkship is so much more valuable than passing the measly bar, I just can't even imagine what information you've gotten up to now that this is a real question

[A. Nony Mouse]

I mean, I agree that OP would be able to pass the bar working full time or next summer or whenever. I can also see why you wouldn't want to throw away the money you've put into taking it this summer, so I think it's reasonable to ask (unless the judge makes really clear before you can even ask that the start date is a deal breaker). I wouldn't recommend passing on the job to take the bar, but if you can do both, then I'd at least try for that.

[Total Litigator]

OP, can you tell us what your general school rank and class rank is? If you are, say top 25% at a T25 or top 1/2 at a T10, getting a clerkship = basically winning the lottery. Damn the bar, pursue this clerkship, tell the judge you could start tomorrow if that's what he wants.

[rpupkin]

I think in the context of a new judge who's hiring off-schedule, it's perfectly reasonable to ask whether it's possible to put the start date off till after the bar, or maybe work part-time leading up to the bar. If you're interviewing now, the judge will understand that you've already applied to take the bar and signed up for the course and paid the application fee and so on. The judge may say no - they may either insist on someone who can start right away, or may just hire someone who can start right away - but I can't imagine it being inappropriate to ask, given that the schedule is so different from the usual hiring schedule.

I agree that it's perfectly reasonable to ask the question. But if you ask the question pre-offer, you run the risk of lowering your chances of actually getting the clerkship. Let's say a new judge is considering two applicants for the same spot with similar qualifications. Applicant A can't wait to get started. Applicant B is asking to work part-time for awhile and/or delay her start date. If I'm the judge, I'm probably going with Applicant A.

The first few months on the job are a pretty important time for a judge. A new judge is probably not going to want to take a risk on a clerk who, for whatever reason, doesn't seem all that into the job.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I think in the context of a new judge who's hiring off-schedule, it's perfectly reasonable to ask whether it's possible to put the start date off till after the bar, or maybe work part-time leading up to the bar. If you're interviewing now, the judge will understand that you've already applied to take the bar and signed up for the course and paid the application fee and so on. The judge may say no - they may either insist on someone who can start right away, or may just hire someone who can start right away - but I can't imagine it being inappropriate to ask, given that the schedule is so different from the usual hiring schedule.

I agree that it's perfectly reasonable to ask the question. But if you ask the question pre-offer, you run the risk of lowering your chances of actually getting the clerkship. Let's say a new judge is considering two applicants for the same spot with similar qualifications. Applicant A can't wait to get started. Applicant B is asking to work part-time for awhile and/or delay her start date. If I'm a judge, I'm probably going with Applicant A.

The first few months on the job are a pretty important time for a judge. A new judge is probably not going to want to take a risk on a clerk who, for whatever reason, doesn't seem all that into the job.

I mean, I agree, if you have 2 candidates who are otherwise equal and one can start when you want and the other can't start until later. But you're a little damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't - as someone said above, I think a judge might reasonably be annoyed if someone who knew this was an issue didn't bring it up at all during the interview; though obviously there are people here who would say don't bring it up at all, ever. I just think if you're going to ask at all, which I don't think is unreasonable, you need to bring it up in the interview.

I also don't think someone not being willing to lose a lot of money already sunk into taking the bar exam is the same as not seeming all that into the job (and I don't think any of the judges I've known would see it as not seeming into the job). If the OP were talking about the bar trip, sure. But the bar exam is fricking expensive and if you've started studying and are little over a month out, I'd just want to get it over with, too. I mean, at this point, the OP hasn't even interviewed yet. If s/he started right after the bar exam, we're looking at probably a 4 week gap. And since the judge has the OP's resume, s/he has to know the OP just graduated, and should be able to reasonably assume that OP needs to take the bar, and the judge decided to interview OP anyway.

But obviously people disagree on what's appropriate here.

[DELG]

Know what else is expensive? Not having a fucking job.