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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:35 pm

This is kinda random but how did Ketanji Brown Jackson manage a SCOTUS clerkship with Breyer as only cum laude at HLS as opposed to magna cum laude or summa cum laude? Doesn't that mean she wasn't top 10% of the class (only top 40%), or was the latin honors system different back in the day? How hard is it for cum laude but not magna cum laude HLS folks to get a SCOTUS clerkship?

And before anyone gets any ideas to the contrary, I fully think KBJ is awesome and I'm thrilled about her elevation to SCOTUS. Just curious if anyone has any insight on this.

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:51 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Apr 14, 2022 11:35 pm
How hard is it for cum laude but not magna cum laude HLS folks to get a SCOTUS clerkship?
Gorsuch also graduated cum laude.

The former SCOTUS clerk spoke on this matter. It happens quite frequently, but these candidates always have a strong hook to them. Strong rec from a famed prof/URM/familial connections/Fed Soc/aligned (professional/academic/personal) interests with the Justice, etc.

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Apr 15, 2022 8:18 am

Cum laude is a big band; she also could’ve been like 11th percentile. YLJ doesn’t have Latin honors but it also seems that strong indications are that Kavanaugh was not at the top of his class.

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Apr 15, 2022 10:31 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:06 pm
throwaway9876 wrote:
Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:26 pm
Hi all, thanks for taking the time to answer questions.

I'm a current 2/9/DC Cir. clerk. Before clerking I did the strong-grades-at-YHS-thing, then an academic/teaching fellowship for a year. I've really enjoyed my clerkship and would like to throw my hat into the ring for a SCOTUS clerkship.

I'm planning to take a biglaw job when I finish this clerkship in the fall, because I have some family expenses and really astounding student loan debt. I'd look to join an appellate practice group, though I'm particularly interested in work with transnational/sovereign-state elements.

My questions, if anyone would be so kind, are these.

First, in terms of my candidacy, how much of a difference does it make what kind of practice group I join? E.g., general appellate versus something perhaps less relevant, like international arbitration.

Second, again in terms of the strength of my candidacy, how much of a difference does it make which firm I join among V20 or so? Given the realities, my decision would be primarily based on things like work and fit. But all things being equal, is there a difference between going to, e.g., Cravath versus White & Case? What about farther down, e.g., Susman?

Thanks again!
Former SCOTUS clerk here. Two things jump out from your post.

First, 2/9/DC isn't a particularly relevant metric. Are you clerking for a feeder, a semi-feeder, or a non-feeder? If a feeder, your firm choice may not matter. If a non-feeder, you'll need all the help you can get. A vouch from a leading light of the appellate bar wouldn't hurt.

Second, Vault rankings are beyond meaningless. No justice considers Susman Godfrey less impressive than Cravath or White & Case. As for going "farther down" the Vault rankings, top liberal "feeder" firms include Munger Tolles (V42) and Jenner & Block (V59). Top conservative "feeder" firms include the unranked Cooper & Kirk and Consovoy McCarthy. What do they all have in common? High concentrations of SCOTUS clerks and SCOTUS advocates. Relationships matter more than you could imagine.
Even if you are clerking for a feeder, I would pick your firm carefully if you want to maximize scotus odds. When I clerked we saw plenty of rec letters from firm lawyers. We definitely paid attention when we came across a recommendation from Paul Clement, Kannon Shanmugam, David Frederick, Lisa Blatt, or someone like that. Those recs carry much more weight than your typical law professor rec (unless the professor is Goldsmith or McConnell or someone of that caliber). Which makes sense, since the work you do in a high end appellate shop is much more relevant than your performance in law school. And even setting aside the big guns/appellate practitioners, don't underestimate the power of recent scotus clerks to nudge or tank applications.

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Apr 15, 2022 10:40 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Apr 15, 2022 8:18 am
Cum laude is a big band; she also could’ve been like 11th percentile. YLJ doesn’t have Latin honors but it also seems that strong indications are that Kavanaugh was not at the top of his class.
Still, even if you're 11th percentile at HLS, that means that 50+ people in your class got better grades. Not very impressive by scotus clerk standards, given that there are only 36 or so scotus clerks each year. I agree that it is not infrequent for a cum laude grad to get hired, but with rare exceptions it seems reserved for folks with strong conservative bona fides or urms.

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:19 am

Probably the most recently announced cum laude HLS SCOTUS clerk hire: https://law.tulane.edu/news/tulane-law- ... -sotomayor

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:19 am
Probably the most recently announced cum laude HLS SCOTUS clerk hire: https://law.tulane.edu/news/tulane-law- ... -sotomayor
Interesting. Seems like an HLS cum laude graduate with prestigious district court and CoA clerkships and strong liberal bona fides!

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by nixy » Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:50 pm

It's the article in the Stanford Law Review that does it for me.

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Apr 19, 2022 4:12 pm

How strong must letters from judges be to have a decent chance? I am clerking for a liberal feeder (not on the D.C. Circuit), and I am just curious how that works because it can't be the case that every clerk is better than the last one that was fed . . .

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Apr 19, 2022 4:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 4:12 pm
How strong must letters from judges be to have a decent chance? I am clerking for a liberal feeder (not on the D.C. Circuit), and I am just curious how that works because it can't be the case that every clerk is better than the last one that was fed . . .
This reminded me of this article from a few years back, giving some insights into the SCOTUS hiring process.
"I tell my clerks, 'Don't count on me.' I don't do anything to push them ordinarily," Reinhardt said. "I have a problem doing that, and I think they all know it. My clerks are all so good. I hate to single one out above the others, and I don't really know at the end of the year which one's the best. Justice Sotomayor and Justice Breyer, in particular, get frustrated when I refuse to say it's the best one I have, because I don't really know."

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Apr 19, 2022 7:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 4:12 pm
How strong must letters from judges be to have a decent chance? I am clerking for a liberal feeder (not on the D.C. Circuit), and I am just curious how that works because it can't be the case that every clerk is better than the last one that was fed . . .
It depends how great a reach your candidacy otherwise would be. If you're valedictorian at a lower T50 school, you'll need a letter claiming you're among the 2 or 3 best clerks the judge has ever had. If you graduated with all Hs from Yale, your judge can get away with more measured praise. "He/she reminds me of your past clerk, [clerk 1], and also has the [favorable quality] of [clerk 2]."

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by WLRKEthan » Tue May 03, 2022 10:15 am

nixy wrote:
Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:50 pm
It's the article in the Stanford Law Review that does it for me.
what article are you referring to? could you post a link?

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by nixy » Tue May 03, 2022 11:44 am

WLRKEthan wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 10:15 am
nixy wrote:
Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:50 pm
It's the article in the Stanford Law Review that does it for me.
what article are you referring to? could you post a link?
The HLS cum laude clerk has an article in the Stanford Law Review. I was snarking at people who thought they were underqualified because they “only” graduated cum laude, because most people aren’t getting published in the Stanford Law Review regardless of grades. I don’t know anything about the article and it’s doubtless otherwise irrelevant to this thread. Sorry to have been unclear.

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Wed May 04, 2022 9:59 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:19 am
Probably the most recently announced cum laude HLS SCOTUS clerk hire: https://law.tulane.edu/news/tulane-law- ... -sotomayor
Random question: is it normal for pupils to be this size in the light?

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Wed May 04, 2022 1:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed May 04, 2022 9:59 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:19 am
Probably the most recently announced cum laude HLS SCOTUS clerk hire: https://law.tulane.edu/news/tulane-law- ... -sotomayor
Random question: is it normal for pupils to be this size in the light?
Is this your way of remarking that she has pretty eyes? She does.

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Thu May 26, 2022 11:47 am

Anyone know how judges view calls from people they have significant disagreements with? For example, would a call/letter from Neal Katyal move the needle with conservatives (for a conservative applicant), or a call/letter from Michael McConnell move the needle with the liberals (for a liberal applicant)?

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Thu May 26, 2022 12:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu May 26, 2022 11:47 am
Anyone know how judges view calls from people they have significant disagreements with? For example, would a call/letter from Neal Katyal move the needle with conservatives (for a conservative applicant), or a call/letter from Michael McConnell move the needle with the liberals (for a liberal applicant)?
Depends on the judge but often very favorably, assuming your judge is not an ideologue and that your recommender has a reputation of being a serious thinker and not a partisan/ideological hack. Larry Tribe had significant pull with many of the conservative justices, to use one very well-known example.

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 04, 2022 1:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu May 26, 2022 12:43 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu May 26, 2022 11:47 am
Anyone know how judges view calls from people they have significant disagreements with? For example, would a call/letter from Neal Katyal move the needle with conservatives (for a conservative applicant), or a call/letter from Michael McConnell move the needle with the liberals (for a liberal applicant)?
Depends on the judge but often very favorably, assuming your judge is not an ideologue and that your recommender has a reputation of being a serious thinker and not a partisan/ideological hack. Larry Tribe had significant pull with many of the conservative justices, to use one very well-known example.
This, with emphasis on the "serious thinker" part. One of McConnell's first feeds on the 10th Circuit was to Sotomayor, and based on his recent representations Katyal may have more pull with conservatives than with progressives at this point.

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by fuzzybug342 » Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:20 pm

Hi! Is it more advantageous to try to go for "brand name" professors who will call for you, or really try to strike it out of the park with another set of professors? Also, if a student's resume seems to scream IP or some specialty, does that cut against them for COA clerkships?

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:34 pm

fuzzybug342 wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:20 pm
Hi! Is it more advantageous to try to go for "brand name" professors who will call for you, or really try to strike it out of the park with another set of professors? Also, if a student's resume seems to scream IP or some specialty, does that cut against them for COA clerkships?
Adding a follow up question to this. For students at T-14 schools like Michigan/Duke/Berkeley, would a top SCOTUS-connection professor (Leah Litman comes to mind, but there are others of course) make them competitive with T6 applicants or T3 applicants for COA? This is assuming you have the baseline grades. Furthermore, does diversity play a role in clerkships? I'd assume that would vary by judge?

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:42 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:34 pm
fuzzybug342 wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:20 pm
Hi! Is it more advantageous to try to go for "brand name" professors who will call for you, or really try to strike it out of the park with another set of professors? Also, if a student's resume seems to scream IP or some specialty, does that cut against them for COA clerkships?
Adding a follow up question to this. For students at T-14 schools like Michigan/Duke/Berkeley, would a top SCOTUS-connection professor (Leah Litman comes to mind, but there are others of course) make them competitive with T6 applicants or T3 applicants for COA? This is assuming you have the baseline grades. Furthermore, does diversity play a role in clerkships? I'd assume that would vary by judge?
If you have the baseline grades, then you would already be competitive with T6 or T3 applicants. Having a big time professor in your corner would certainly help if the professor can give you a strong rec. As for diversity, I think the general answer is yes. Liberal judges look for racial diversity and socio-economic diversity. Conservative judges look for gender diversity and socio-economic diversity. Obviously, each judge is different, but I feel pretty comfortable painting with broad strokes here.

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:05 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:42 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:34 pm
fuzzybug342 wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:20 pm
Hi! Is it more advantageous to try to go for "brand name" professors who will call for you, or really try to strike it out of the park with another set of professors? Also, if a student's resume seems to scream IP or some specialty, does that cut against them for COA clerkships?
Adding a follow up question to this. For students at T-14 schools like Michigan/Duke/Berkeley, would a top SCOTUS-connection professor (Leah Litman comes to mind, but there are others of course) make them competitive with T6 applicants or T3 applicants for COA? This is assuming you have the baseline grades. Furthermore, does diversity play a role in clerkships? I'd assume that would vary by judge?
If you have the baseline grades, then you would already be competitive with T6 or T3 applicants. Having a big time professor in your corner would certainly help if the professor can give you a strong rec. As for diversity, I think the general answer is yes. Liberal judges look for racial diversity and socio-economic diversity. Conservative judges look for gender diversity and socio-economic diversity. Obviously, each judge is different, but I feel pretty comfortable painting with broad strokes here.
How can a judge even ascertain socio-economic diversity from someone's application? Would the applicant mention they're first generation college in the interview? Wouldn't this be kind of difficult to glean from appearances alone, other than in the rare situations where someone's an AnBryce Scholar at NYU Law or something like that (https://www.law.nyu.edu/financialaid/jd ... ps/anbryce)?

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:14 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:05 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:42 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:34 pm
fuzzybug342 wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:20 pm
Hi! Is it more advantageous to try to go for "brand name" professors who will call for you, or really try to strike it out of the park with another set of professors? Also, if a student's resume seems to scream IP or some specialty, does that cut against them for COA clerkships?
Adding a follow up question to this. For students at T-14 schools like Michigan/Duke/Berkeley, would a top SCOTUS-connection professor (Leah Litman comes to mind, but there are others of course) make them competitive with T6 applicants or T3 applicants for COA? This is assuming you have the baseline grades. Furthermore, does diversity play a role in clerkships? I'd assume that would vary by judge?
If you have the baseline grades, then you would already be competitive with T6 or T3 applicants. Having a big time professor in your corner would certainly help if the professor can give you a strong rec. As for diversity, I think the general answer is yes. Liberal judges look for racial diversity and socio-economic diversity. Conservative judges look for gender diversity and socio-economic diversity. Obviously, each judge is different, but I feel pretty comfortable painting with broad strokes here.
How can a judge even ascertain socio-economic diversity from someone's application? Would the applicant mention they're first generation college in the interview? Wouldn't this be kind of difficult to glean from appearances alone, other than in the rare situations where someone's an AnBryce Scholar at NYU Law or something like that (https://www.law.nyu.edu/financialaid/jd ... ps/anbryce)?
First gen stuff on the resume is normally a pretty good (but not perfect) indicator. The other is professors mentioning it in letters of rec. This is 100% something you should have professors mention if you can.

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:27 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:05 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:42 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:34 pm
fuzzybug342 wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:20 pm
Hi! Is it more advantageous to try to go for "brand name" professors who will call for you, or really try to strike it out of the park with another set of professors? Also, if a student's resume seems to scream IP or some specialty, does that cut against them for COA clerkships?
Adding a follow up question to this. For students at T-14 schools like Michigan/Duke/Berkeley, would a top SCOTUS-connection professor (Leah Litman comes to mind, but there are others of course) make them competitive with T6 applicants or T3 applicants for COA? This is assuming you have the baseline grades. Furthermore, does diversity play a role in clerkships? I'd assume that would vary by judge?
If you have the baseline grades, then you would already be competitive with T6 or T3 applicants. Having a big time professor in your corner would certainly help if the professor can give you a strong rec. As for diversity, I think the general answer is yes. Liberal judges look for racial diversity and socio-economic diversity. Conservative judges look for gender diversity and socio-economic diversity. Obviously, each judge is different, but I feel pretty comfortable painting with broad strokes here.
How can a judge even ascertain socio-economic diversity from someone's application? Would the applicant mention they're first generation college in the interview? Wouldn't this be kind of difficult to glean from appearances alone, other than in the rare situations where someone's an AnBryce Scholar at NYU Law or something like that (https://www.law.nyu.edu/financialaid/jd ... ps/anbryce)?
In addition to what the poster above said, I've seen resumes reference working through college in a way that tends to suggest socio-economic status. Where it's not not like, summer internships in your chosen field, but more like waiting tables/bartending, sometimes referencing doing it 30 hrs/wk throughout undergrad or similar. Obviously it's no guarantee of socio-economic status - you could have grown up rich but your family wants you to work in school or whatever - but it tends to stick out. I think you can also reference something like being first-gen, or where you grew up, in your cover letter, if you go with something a little more descriptive than the bare bones (again, where you grew up isn't an absolute tell, and I can't come up with great examples without becoming entirely stereotypical, but for instance growing up in a town of 6000 people in rural Iowa is going to be a kind of socio-economic diversity, especially for a judge not in the midwest).

I agree though that your references saying something about this is going to be the most graceful way to get it across.

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Re: SCOTUS clerk taking questions about federal clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:27 am

In addition to what the poster above said, I've seen resumes reference working through college in a way that tends to suggest socio-economic status. Where it's not not like, summer internships in your chosen field, but more like waiting tables/bartending, sometimes referencing doing it 30 hrs/wk throughout undergrad or similar. Obviously it's no guarantee of socio-economic status - you could have grown up rich but your family wants you to work in school or whatever - but it tends to stick out. I think you can also reference something like being first-gen, or where you grew up, in your cover letter, if you go with something a little more descriptive than the bare bones (again, where you grew up isn't an absolute tell, and I can't come up with great examples without becoming entirely stereotypical, but for instance growing up in a town of 6000 people in rural Iowa is going to be a kind of socio-economic diversity, especially for a judge not in the midwest).

I agree though that your references saying something about this is going to be the most graceful way to get it across.
I am not a SCOTUS clerk and this is not SCOTUS clerk-specific advice. But as someone from a lower-income background, it is generally pretty easy for me to tell who comes from money (the majority of applicants), and who does not. So when there is someone genuinely from a low-income background, it sticks out.

First Generation groups are good, but a lot of people join those because of the facetious claim that being a first-generation lawyer is particularly meaningful, which it is not. Interest sections are a pretty easy tell most of the time.

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