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Posted: **Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:19 pm**

How many H's/DS's do you need for a Kozinski or O'Scannlain?

Posted: **Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:22 pm**

Anonymous User wrote:How many H's/DS's do you need for a Kozinski or O'Scannlain?

PM me.

Posted: **Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:04 am**

Anonymous User wrote:How many H's/DS's do you need for a Kozinski or O'Scannlain?

I don't know about those two, but for my judge anything more than one P (with at least a couple DS's) after three semesters and you are out of the running. Maybe two P's if the majority of your other grades are DS.

Posted: **Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:31 am**

Oops.

Posted: **Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:10 am**

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:How many H's/DS's do you need for a Kozinski or O'Scannlain?
I don't know about those two, but for my judge anything more than one P (with at least a couple DS's) after three semesters and you are out of the running. Maybe two P's if the majority of your other grades are DS.

That's interesting. Is your judge a feeder? Or is this standard for 9th Cir. judges?

Posted: **Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:42 pm**

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:How many H's/DS's do you need for a Kozinski or O'Scannlain?
I don't know about those two, but for my judge anything more than one P (with at least a couple DS's) after three semesters and you are out of the running. Maybe two P's if the majority of your other grades are DS.
That's interesting. Is your judge a feeder? Or is this standard for 9th Cir. judges?

From everything I know, this is somewhat atypical. There are maybe 4-5 judges on the 9th who I think this applies to - that figure may be a little bit bigger, but there are plenty of judges on the 9th who will hire people who graduated cum laude or have equivalent grades.

Posted: **Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:50 pm**

i keep reading this thread title as "Harvard Invades 9th Circuit"

that is all

Posted: **Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:50 pm**

patogordo wrote:i keep reading this thread title as "Harvard Invades 9th Circuit"

that is all

"Harvard Grades 9th Circuit, Awards a LP."

Posted: **Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:23 pm**

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:How many H's/DS's do you need for a Kozinski or O'Scannlain?
I don't know about those two, but for my judge anything more than one P (with at least a couple DS's) after three semesters and you are out of the running. Maybe two P's if the majority of your other grades are DS.

Yeah, what kind of level judge is this, Kozinski/O'Scannlain level? If I had to guess, I'd say Kozinski/O'Scannlain require several more DSs than Ps, but no more than 2 Ps. So, e.g., if you have 1 P, then you need 4-5 DSs. If 2Ps, 6-7 DSs. That's just my estimate. I'm not a clerk though, just a current HLS student guessing at the grade spread of people who got top feeders last cycle.

Posted: **Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:30 pm**

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:How many H's/DS's do you need for a Kozinski or O'Scannlain?
I don't know about those two, but for my judge anything more than one P (with at least a couple DS's) after three semesters and you are out of the running. Maybe two P's if the majority of your other grades are DS.
Yeah, what kind of level judge is this, Kozinski/O'Scannlain level? If I had to guess, I'd say Kozinski/O'Scannlain require several more DSs than Ps, but no more than 2 Ps. So, e.g., if you have 1 P, then you need 3-5 DSs. If 2Ps, 5-7 DSs. That's just a very rough guesstimate. I'm not a clerk though, just a current HLS student guessing at the grade spread of people who got top feeders last cycle.

That's not the entire equation, though. O'Scannlain in particular values conservative ideology in his clerks. His current HLS clerk was President of Fed Soc and he only graduated cum laude.

Posted: **Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:37 pm**

Anonymous User wrote:That's not the entire equation, though. O'Scannlain in particular values conservative ideology in his clerks. His current HLS clerk was President of Fed Soc and he only graduated cum laude.

You're right. If grades is all you're asking about and you're aiming at the top feeders judges that are grade sticklers though then that's probably what you need to be competitive, considerably more DSs than Ps, with no more than a P or two tops.

Posted: **Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:44 pm**

More than 1P and you can forget about it.

Posted: **Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:44 pm**

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:That's not the entire equation, though. O'Scannlain in particular values conservative ideology in his clerks. His current HLS clerk was President of Fed Soc and he only graduated cum laude.
You're right. If grades is all you're asking about and you're aiming at the top feeders judges that are grade sticklers though then that's probably what you need to be competitive, considerably more DSs than Ps, with no more than a P or two tops.

I think that is also accurate. I know that Judge Wilkinson wrote in his OSCAR listing that he requests no more than 1 or 2 Ps and ideally several DS. If that's what Judge Wilkinson is requesting, I think that's a pretty accurate indicator of what the very top feeders are looking for out of HLS.

Posted: **Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:47 pm**

Figured this might also be a good place to ask. Any idea how many DS's are given out in a class? It seems that they are more common than book prizes at other schools, but I am not too certain. It's kind of weird that I will have no idea what the HLS curve is like until I am a clerk, reviewing transcripts. Kind of annoying.

Posted: **Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:50 pm**

Anonymous User wrote:Figured this might also be a good place to ask. Any idea how many DS's are given out in a class? It seems that they are more common than book prizes at other schools, but I am not too certain. It's kind of weird that I will have no idea what the HLS curve is like until I am a clerk, reviewing transcripts. Kind of annoying.

Professor's discretion, but typically in range of 2-4 in your average 1L class.

Posted: **Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:51 pm**

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Figured this might also be a good place to ask. Any idea how many DS's are given out in a class? It seems that they are more common than book prizes at other schools, but I am not too certain. It's kind of weird that I will have no idea what the HLS curve is like until I am a clerk, reviewing transcripts. Kind of annoying.
Professor's discretion, but typically in range of 2-4 in your average 1L class.

Thoughts on whether this holds true for upper-level classes? E.g., 2-4 per 85ish students?

Posted: **Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:54 pm**

ph14 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:That's not the entire equation, though. O'Scannlain in particular values conservative ideology in his clerks. His current HLS clerk was President of Fed Soc and he only graduated cum laude.
You're right. If grades is all you're asking about and you're aiming at the top feeders judges that are grade sticklers though then that's probably what you need to be competitive, considerably more DSs than Ps, with no more than a P or two tops.
I think that is also accurate. I know that Judge Wilkinson wrote in his OSCAR listing that he requests no more than 1 or 2 Ps and ideally several DS. If that's what Judge Wilkinson is requesting, I think that's a pretty accurate indicator of what the very top feeders are looking for out of HLS.

Wilkinson wrote something specific to HLS applicants in his OSCAR listing? Also define "several." Would you agree with the anon up there that said 4-5 DS for every P?

Posted: **Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:56 pm**

Anonymous User wrote:
ph14 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:That's not the entire equation, though. O'Scannlain in particular values conservative ideology in his clerks. His current HLS clerk was President of Fed Soc and he only graduated cum laude.
You're right. If grades is all you're asking about and you're aiming at the top feeders judges that are grade sticklers though then that's probably what you need to be competitive, considerably more DSs than Ps, with no more than a P or two tops.
I think that is also accurate. I know that Judge Wilkinson wrote in his OSCAR listing that he requests no more than 1 or 2 Ps and ideally several DS. If that's what Judge Wilkinson is requesting, I think that's a pretty accurate indicator of what the very top feeders are looking for out of HLS.
Wilkinson wrote something specific to HLS applicants in his OSCAR listing? Also define "several." Would you agree with the anon up there that said 4-5 DS for every P?

Maybe it wasn't in his OSCAR listing and was instead in the list that OCS provided about judge's hiring status. The listing specifically said "several" if I am recalling correctly, hence I'll decline to try and define several. I think that 4-5 DS for every P is deep into magna territory and definitely competitive for feeders. What are you at, specifically?

Posted: **Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:05 pm**

Anonymous User wrote: Maybe it wasn't in his OSCAR listing and was instead in the list that OCS provided about judge's hiring status. The listing specifically said "several" if I am recalling correctly, hence I'll decline to try and define several. I think that 4-5 DS for every P is deep into magna territory and definitely competitive for feeders. What are you at, specifically?

Eh nowhere near 4-5 DS for every P. More DS than P but barely so it's probably a pipe dream for me. But shit how many kids at HLS really have those kinds of grades? I used to be pretty happy with mine, now I feel pretty dumb.

Posted: **Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:07 pm**

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: Maybe it wasn't in his OSCAR listing and was instead in the list that OCS provided about judge's hiring status. The listing specifically said "several" if I am recalling correctly, hence I'll decline to try and define several. I think that 4-5 DS for every P is deep into magna territory and definitely competitive for feeders. What are you at, specifically?
Eh nowhere near 4-5 DS for every P. More DS than P but barely so it's probably a pipe dream for me. But shit how many kids at HLS really have those kinds of grades? I used to be pretty happy with mine, now I feel pretty dumb.

More DS than P puts you into magna territory. That's top 10%. Don't feel bad about your grades friend. You can definitely still get a highly desirable clerkship. I know for a fact that a person with multiple Ps got a super big time feeder. So nothing is out. You'll be competitive everywhere.

Posted: **Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:13 pm**

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: Maybe it wasn't in his OSCAR listing and was instead in the list that OCS provided about judge's hiring status. The listing specifically said "several" if I am recalling correctly, hence I'll decline to try and define several. I think that 4-5 DS for every P is deep into magna territory and definitely competitive for feeders. What are you at, specifically?
Eh nowhere near 4-5 DS for every P. More DS than P but barely so it's probably a pipe dream for me. But shit how many kids at HLS really have those kinds of grades? I used to be pretty happy with mine, now I feel pretty dumb.
More DS than P puts you into magna territory. That's top 10%. Don't feel bad about your grades friend. You can definitely still get a highly desirable clerkship. I know for a fact that a person with multiple Ps got a super big time feeder. So nothing is out. You'll be competitive everywhere.

Thanks mate. Didn't mean to sound down on myself, I'm more just really damn impressed by the folks at this fine institution.

Posted: **Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:15 pm**

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: Maybe it wasn't in his OSCAR listing and was instead in the list that OCS provided about judge's hiring status. The listing specifically said "several" if I am recalling correctly, hence I'll decline to try and define several. I think that 4-5 DS for every P is deep into magna territory and definitely competitive for feeders. What are you at, specifically?
Eh nowhere near 4-5 DS for every P. More DS than P but barely so it's probably a pipe dream for me. But shit how many kids at HLS really have those kinds of grades? I used to be pretty happy with mine, now I feel pretty dumb.
More DS than P puts you into magna territory. That's top 10%. Don't feel bad about your grades friend. You can definitely still get a highly desirable clerkship. I know for a fact that a person with multiple Ps got a super big time feeder. So nothing is out. You'll be competitive everywhere.
Thanks mate. Didn't mean to sound down on myself, I'm more just really damn impressed by the folks at this fine institution.

Yep, some people here are downright brilliant. I don't think that very many people are +4/5 net or greater (number of DS's minus Ps). It's probably just a handful or so.

Edit: Well, if we do some quick math. Magna, top 10%, is roughly 60 people at graduation (I think, just going by what I remember the women's movement cited last year). Magna cut off is roughly 3.95. That's nearly net 0: an equal number of DS and Ps, rest Hs. So nearly 60 people are at net 0 or above. That's seems like a lot when you say it like that.

Posted: **Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:49 pm**

Where are you getting 3.95, just curious? Also, what is that spread like? It's honestly not that difficult to get all H's if you work decently hard 1L year and choose classes carefully in 2L and 3L years. It's the DS's that are tough to get. There are probably a lot of people that have around a 4.00 at graduation, but I would be shocked if there were more than 10 people who have the grades for a Fletcher or a Kozinski or a Reinhardt, or 5 DS's for every P if that's what we're calling it. Think about the clerkship statistics. No more than a dozen or so every year land the really top feeders. When you subtract the people that land those positions despite having lower grades, because of professor connections or because they're president of HLR, then you're left with not that many at all.

Posted: **Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:55 pm**

Anonymous User wrote:Where are you getting 3.95, just curious? Also, what is that spread like? It's honestly not that difficult to get all H's if you work decently hard 1L year and choose classes carefully in 2L and 3L years. It's the DS's that are tough to get. There are probably a lot of people that have around a 4.00 at graduation, but I would be shocked if there were more than 10 people who have the grades for a Fletcher or a Kozinski or a Reinhardt, or 5 DS's for every P if that's what we're calling it. Think about the clerkship statistics. No more than a dozen or so every year land the really top feeders. When you subtract the people that land those positions despite having lower grades, because of professor connections or because they're president of HLR, then you're left with not that many at all.

That seems like a pretty solid analysis. Though I do not know how grade selective Reinhardt is. I would guess he cares more about ideology, especially at this point in his career, but again i'm just speculating.

Feeder list (though this hasn't been updated since last March I don't think).

1. Garland (D.C. Cir.), 20 + 1 Bristow
2. Kavanaugh (D.C. Cir.), 18 + 1 Bristow
3. Wilkinson (4th Cir.), 14 + 2 Bristows
4. Kozinski (9th Cir.), 10
4. Sutton (6th Cir.), 10 + 2 Bristows
6. Katzmann (2d Cir.), 9
7. Tatel (D.C. Cir.), 8 + 1 Bristow
8. Griffith (D.C. Cir.), 7
8. O'Scannlain (9th Cir.), 7
8. Reinhardt (9th Cir.), 7
11. D. Ginsburg (D.C. Cir.), 6
11. Gorsuch (10th Cir.), 6 + 1 Bristow
11. Calabresi (2d Cir.), 6
11. Fletcher (9th Cir.), 6 + 1 Bristow
15. Posner (7th Cir.), 5
15. J.R. Brown (D.C. Cir.), 5
17. Boudin (1st Cir.), 4 + 1 Bristow
17. Randolph (D.C. Cir.), 4 + 1 Bristow
19. E. Jones (5th Cir.), 3 + 1 Bristow
19. Sentelle (D.C. Cir.), 3
19. S. Williams (D.C. Cir.), 3
22. Carnes (11th), 2
22. Chagares (3d), 2
22. Colloton (8th), 2
22. Kethledge (6th), 2 + 2 Bristows
22. Leval (2d), 2
22. Niemeyer (4th), 2 + 1 Bristow
22. Pryor (11th), 2
22. Sack (2d), 2
22. Scirica (3d), 2

This thread has a lot of speculation on magna cum laude, including a couple of data points. Someone with a 3.93 missed magna:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=203988

Posted: **Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:28 am**

BTW, and this is all speculation so take it with a grain of salt:

From what I understand, you need zero or almost zero P's, and quite a few DS's, to get Reinhardt/Kozinski/Fletcher. O'Scannlain is also very selective but rock-solid conservative credentials can shore up slightly worse grades. I would put Ikuta/Thomas/Berzon/Watford in the next tier of selectivity (ie you need magna-ish grades, perhaps somewhat better), followed by the rest of the SF & Pasadena judges, followed by everyone else.

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