Importance of LR Forum
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Importance of LR
I'm not on law review, but my note was selected to be published in the law review. Any idea on how this will be viewed by judges/clerks? I'm hoping it gets me like half a check mark. T14, fwiw.
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Re: Importance of LR
Like most things with the clerkship hiring process, no single credential is dispositive. Some things, however, are heavily weighted. Law Review membership tends to be one of those credentials. This is also heavily dependent on other factors as well (especially your school). There is a wide range of success rates within the T14. For example, I went to a school towards the latter half of the T14 range. During my 2L application year, not one student without LR membership secured a clerkship. The year before me one 3L secured a district clerkship without LR. I didn't go to a school like HYS, but I suspect lack of LR membership becomes less of a liability as you go up the ranking. During the interview process, a few judges specifically told me they only seek applicants with LR membership (again, could be a product of my specific school). Lastly, the few clerks I encountered without LR membership usually had a secondary journal membership and came from the upper end of the T14. Ultimately, I think your note getting published is certainly a positive check and can certainly be a good resume talking point. I think if you have other strong writing credential proxies (secondary journal membership, high 1L writing grade, research for a prof, etc.) you won't be automatically shut out. And this is all with the assumption you are within the grade range of the court/school/judge.
Disclaimer: I applied and interviewed with primarily circuit courts. I suspect these judges care more about LR membership given the nature of their courts/positions. The district judges I interviewed with didn't pay much attention to, or asked question of, my LR membership. Circuit judges, conversely, discusses my responsibilities and student comment much more frequently.
Disclaimer: I applied and interviewed with primarily circuit courts. I suspect these judges care more about LR membership given the nature of their courts/positions. The district judges I interviewed with didn't pay much attention to, or asked question of, my LR membership. Circuit judges, conversely, discusses my responsibilities and student comment much more frequently.
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Re: Importance of LR
Very helpful, thank you!elipad wrote:Like most things with the clerkship hiring process, no single credential is dispositive. Some things, however, are heavily weighted. Law Review membership tends to be one of those credentials. This is also heavily dependent on other factors as well (especially your school). There is a wide range of success rates within the T14. For example, I went to a school towards the latter half of the T14 range. During my 2L application year, not one student without LR membership secured a clerkship. The year before me one 3L secured a district clerkship without LR. I didn't go to a school like HYS, but I suspect lack of LR membership becomes less of a liability as you go up the ranking. During the interview process, a few judges specifically told me they only seek applicants with LR membership (again, could be a product of my specific school). Lastly, the few clerks I encountered without LR membership usually had a secondary journal membership and came from the upper end of the T14. Ultimately, I think your note getting published is certainly a positive check and can certainly be a good resume talking point. I think if you have other strong writing credential proxies (secondary journal membership, high 1L writing grade, research for a prof, etc.) you won't be automatically shut out. And this is all with the assumption you are within the grade range of the court/school/judge.
Disclaimer: I applied and interviewed with primarily circuit courts. I suspect these judges care more about LR membership given the nature of their courts/positions. The district judges I interviewed with didn't pay much attention to, or asked question of, my LR membership. Circuit judges, conversely, discusses my responsibilities and student comment much more frequently.
- MarkRenton
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Re: Importance of LR
Anonymous User wrote:Very helpful, thank you!elipad wrote:Like most things with the clerkship hiring process, no single credential is dispositive. Some things, however, are heavily weighted. Law Review membership tends to be one of those credentials. This is also heavily dependent on other factors as well (especially your school). There is a wide range of success rates within the T14. For example, I went to a school towards the latter half of the T14 range. During my 2L application year, not one student without LR membership secured a clerkship. The year before me one 3L secured a district clerkship without LR. I didn't go to a school like HYS, but I suspect lack of LR membership becomes less of a liability as you go up the ranking. During the interview process, a few judges specifically told me they only seek applicants with LR membership (again, could be a product of my specific school). Lastly, the few clerks I encountered without LR membership usually had a secondary journal membership and came from the upper end of the T14. Ultimately, I think your note getting published is certainly a positive check and can certainly be a good resume talking point. I think if you have other strong writing credential proxies (secondary journal membership, high 1L writing grade, research for a prof, etc.) you won't be automatically shut out. And this is all with the assumption you are within the grade range of the court/school/judge.
Disclaimer: I applied and interviewed with primarily circuit courts. I suspect these judges care more about LR membership given the nature of their courts/positions. The district judges I interviewed with didn't pay much attention to, or asked question of, my LR membership. Circuit judges, conversely, discusses my responsibilities and student comment much more frequently.
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Re: Importance of LR
This seems accurate. There are a handful of 3L students without LR at my HYS who have secured circuit court clerkships (including myself). That being said, there is a huge overlap between circuit court clerks and LR membership. It's clearly not entirely causal (gunners and such), but when I was going through the application process my advisor told me in no uncertain terms that several judges would not consider my application because I lacked that credential.elipad wrote:I didn't go to a school like HYS, but I suspect lack of LR membership becomes less of a liability as you go up the ranking. During the interview process, a few judges specifically told me they only seek applicants with LR membership (again, could be a product of my specific school). Lastly, the few clerks I encountered without LR membership usually had a secondary journal membership and came from the upper end of the T14.
Tl;dr: not being on LR will limit your options even at HYS, but you're not hopelessly sunk without LR.
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Re: Importance of LR
This overstates the situation a bit, I think. I go to a school just outside the T14 (Vandy/UCLA). Every year we get federal district, federal court of appeals, and state supreme court clerkships from secondary journals. Last year, we had a federal court of appeals clerkship without a journal at all, though that is more rare. Certainly the heaviest concentration comes from Law Review, but others can do quite well too.elipad wrote:Like most things with the clerkship hiring process, no single credential is dispositive. Some things, however, are heavily weighted. Law Review membership tends to be one of those credentials. This is also heavily dependent on other factors as well (especially your school). There is a wide range of success rates within the T14. For example, I went to a school towards the latter half of the T14 range. During my 2L application year, not one student without LR membership secured a clerkship. The year before me one 3L secured a district clerkship without LR. I didn't go to a school like HYS, but I suspect lack of LR membership becomes less of a liability as you go up the ranking. During the interview process, a few judges specifically told me they only seek applicants with LR membership (again, could be a product of my specific school). Lastly, the few clerks I encountered without LR membership usually had a secondary journal membership and came from the upper end of the T14. Ultimately, I think your note getting published is certainly a positive check and can certainly be a good resume talking point. I think if you have other strong writing credential proxies (secondary journal membership, high 1L writing grade, research for a prof, etc.) you won't be automatically shut out. And this is all with the assumption you are within the grade range of the court/school/judge.
Disclaimer: I applied and interviewed with primarily circuit courts. I suspect these judges care more about LR membership given the nature of their courts/positions. The district judges I interviewed with didn't pay much attention to, or asked question of, my LR membership. Circuit judges, conversely, discusses my responsibilities and student comment much more frequently.
As the commenter said, though, where the school is ranked will effect the expectations. For example, I believe that there are people who have clerked on SCOTUS from HYS without Law Review whereas, at my school, I don't think we have had anyone to clerk for SCOTUS without LR senior board.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Importance of LR
OP here. My experience viewing friends go through the gambit last year at a non-HYS T14 also suggests that although there is a correlation between LR and likelihood of obtaining a clerkship, people can do quite well without it (I have two friends who will be on COA next year without LR). I guess my question is whether publishing a note in the flagship journal helps overcome the deficit, or whether it's just a nice thing that won't really help much.Anonymous User wrote:This overstates the situation a bit, I think. I go to a school just outside the T14 (Vandy/UCLA). Every year we get federal district, federal court of appeals, and state supreme court clerkships from secondary journals. Last year, we had a federal court of appeals clerkship without a journal at all, though that is more rare. Certainly the heaviest concentration comes from Law Review, but others can do quite well too.elipad wrote:Like most things with the clerkship hiring process, no single credential is dispositive. Some things, however, are heavily weighted. Law Review membership tends to be one of those credentials. This is also heavily dependent on other factors as well (especially your school). There is a wide range of success rates within the T14. For example, I went to a school towards the latter half of the T14 range. During my 2L application year, not one student without LR membership secured a clerkship. The year before me one 3L secured a district clerkship without LR. I didn't go to a school like HYS, but I suspect lack of LR membership becomes less of a liability as you go up the ranking. During the interview process, a few judges specifically told me they only seek applicants with LR membership (again, could be a product of my specific school). Lastly, the few clerks I encountered without LR membership usually had a secondary journal membership and came from the upper end of the T14. Ultimately, I think your note getting published is certainly a positive check and can certainly be a good resume talking point. I think if you have other strong writing credential proxies (secondary journal membership, high 1L writing grade, research for a prof, etc.) you won't be automatically shut out. And this is all with the assumption you are within the grade range of the court/school/judge.
Disclaimer: I applied and interviewed with primarily circuit courts. I suspect these judges care more about LR membership given the nature of their courts/positions. The district judges I interviewed with didn't pay much attention to, or asked question of, my LR membership. Circuit judges, conversely, discusses my responsibilities and student comment much more frequently.
Also, I believe that there are people who clerk on SCOTUS from HYS without Law Review.
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Re: Importance of LR
Is it the same or better than having LR? Probably not. Will it completely make up for no LR with most judges? Probably not. Will some judges be enamored with the fact that you're published? Of course. Will it help ameliorate the lack of LR? Probably at least somewhat, but it's unclear how many judges it will actually make a difference with.Anonymous User wrote:OP here. My experience viewing friends go through the gambit last year at a non-HYS T14 also suggests that although there is a correlation between LR and likelihood of obtaining a clerkship, people can do quite well without it (I have two friends who will be on COA next year without LR). I guess my question is whether publishing a note in the flagship journal helps overcome the deficit, or whether it's just a nice thing that won't really help much.
Judge hiring is incredibly idiosyncratic. There are a whole host of things most judges tend to prefer such as top school/top grades/LR. But there are also judges who like incredibly random things such as working at a specific place, being published, etc. If you happen to apply to a judge that really likes people who've published, then it will probably go a long way (I have heard of at least one judge who was completely enamored by an applicant who had a handful of publications). If you happen to apply to a judge that doesn't particularly care, then my guess is that it is still a decent plus that shows writing chops.
But the bottom line is that worrying about this kind of stuff is irrelevant. You can't get on LR and you already have the publication locked down. Asking just how much each of those things affects your clerkship chances isn't going to change your actual chances. Also, clerkship applications aren't necessarily about meeting a minimum amount of "check marks."
- BearState
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Re: Importance of LR
To your knowledge, do judges appreciate academic publications in fields outside of law?bk1 wrote:Is it the same or better than having LR? Probably not. Will it completely make up for no LR with most judges? Probably not. Will some judges be enamored with the fact that you're published? Of course. Will it help ameliorate the lack of LR? Probably at least somewhat, but it's unclear how many judges it will actually make a difference with.Anonymous User wrote:OP here. My experience viewing friends go through the gambit last year at a non-HYS T14 also suggests that although there is a correlation between LR and likelihood of obtaining a clerkship, people can do quite well without it (I have two friends who will be on COA next year without LR). I guess my question is whether publishing a note in the flagship journal helps overcome the deficit, or whether it's just a nice thing that won't really help much.
Judge hiring is incredibly idiosyncratic. There are a whole host of things most judges tend to prefer such as top school/top grades/LR. But there are also judges who like incredibly random things such as working at a specific place, being published, etc. If you happen to apply to a judge that really likes people who've published, then it will probably go a long way (I have heard of at least one judge who was completely enamored by an applicant who had a handful of publications). If you happen to apply to a judge that doesn't particularly care, then my guess is that it is still a decent plus that shows writing chops.
But the bottom line is that worrying about this kind of stuff is irrelevant. You can't get on LR and you already have the publication locked down. Asking just how much each of those things affects your clerkship chances isn't going to change your actual chances. Also, clerkship applications aren't necessarily about meeting a minimum amount of "check marks."
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Re: Importance of LR
I'm sure some do, but I doubt that it is a big factor for most.BearState wrote:To your knowledge, do judges appreciate academic publications in fields outside of law?
- A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Importance of LR
I think bk1 is probably right. The judges I clerked for both saw my past academic publications as a big plus (one of them has a policy of trying to hire only people who have significant pre-law writing experience) ...but they're 2 judges out of the many many many that I applied to. All things being equal, I would say anything that shows you have writing experience helps more than it hurts, but all those other things are rarely equal.bk1 wrote:I'm sure some do, but I doubt that it is a big factor for most.BearState wrote:To your knowledge, do judges appreciate academic publications in fields outside of law?
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Re: Importance of LR
Former clerk here who wasn't on a journal.Anonymous User wrote:OP here. My experience viewing friends go through the gambit last year at a non-HYS T14 also suggests that although there is a correlation between LR and likelihood of obtaining a clerkship, people can do quite well without it (I have two friends who will be on COA next year without LR). I guess my question is whether publishing a note in the flagship journal helps overcome the deficit, or whether it's just a nice thing that won't really help much.Anonymous User wrote:This overstates the situation a bit, I think. I go to a school just outside the T14 (Vandy/UCLA). Every year we get federal district, federal court of appeals, and state supreme court clerkships from secondary journals. Last year, we had a federal court of appeals clerkship without a journal at all, though that is more rare. Certainly the heaviest concentration comes from Law Review, but others can do quite well too.elipad wrote:Like most things with the clerkship hiring process, no single credential is dispositive. Some things, however, are heavily weighted. Law Review membership tends to be one of those credentials. This is also heavily dependent on other factors as well (especially your school). There is a wide range of success rates within the T14. For example, I went to a school towards the latter half of the T14 range. During my 2L application year, not one student without LR membership secured a clerkship. The year before me one 3L secured a district clerkship without LR. I didn't go to a school like HYS, but I suspect lack of LR membership becomes less of a liability as you go up the ranking. During the interview process, a few judges specifically told me they only seek applicants with LR membership (again, could be a product of my specific school). Lastly, the few clerks I encountered without LR membership usually had a secondary journal membership and came from the upper end of the T14. Ultimately, I think your note getting published is certainly a positive check and can certainly be a good resume talking point. I think if you have other strong writing credential proxies (secondary journal membership, high 1L writing grade, research for a prof, etc.) you won't be automatically shut out. And this is all with the assumption you are within the grade range of the court/school/judge.
Disclaimer: I applied and interviewed with primarily circuit courts. I suspect these judges care more about LR membership given the nature of their courts/positions. The district judges I interviewed with didn't pay much attention to, or asked question of, my LR membership. Circuit judges, conversely, discusses my responsibilities and student comment much more frequently.
Also, I believe that there are people who clerk on SCOTUS from HYS without Law Review.
As everyone mentioned it's chamber specific. Some judges require it, some do not. Of the people who clerked in my class, there were people besides me who got clerkships without being on a journal (though I don't remember anyone getting COA without it).
Other factors can easily help you overcome not being a journal also. For instance, if a well respected professor is willing to call on your behalf and say why you are great and why you should be interviewed, that will likely overcome any journal issues.
Anyway outside of HYS, the whole process seems to be a mixture of knowing the right people, applying at the right time, and, ultimately, just getting lucky.
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Re: Importance of LR
Hell, even at HYS it's a mixture of knowing the right people, applying a the right time, and getting lucky. Compared to other schools you can get away with weaker connections to judges/current clerks, slightly less optimal timing, and slightly less luck, but it's still pretty crapshooty.Anonymous User wrote:Anyway outside of HYS, the whole process seems to be a mixture of knowing the right people, applying at the right time, and, ultimately, just getting lucky.
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Re: Importance of LR
This is not really true. I know multiple people at H who are clerking for top feeder judges without being on LR. They all have fantastic grades, but not being a LR member is not a per se bar on anything really at HYS if your grades are good enough and you have the right faculty pulling for you.Anonymous User wrote:This seems accurate. There are a handful of 3L students without LR at my HYS who have secured circuit court clerkships (including myself). That being said, there is a huge overlap between circuit court clerks and LR membership. It's clearly not entirely causal (gunners and such), but when I was going through the application process my advisor told me in no uncertain terms that several judges would not consider my application because I lacked that credential.elipad wrote:I didn't go to a school like HYS, but I suspect lack of LR membership becomes less of a liability as you go up the ranking. During the interview process, a few judges specifically told me they only seek applicants with LR membership (again, could be a product of my specific school). Lastly, the few clerks I encountered without LR membership usually had a secondary journal membership and came from the upper end of the T14.
Tl;dr: not being on LR will limit your options even at HYS, but you're not hopelessly sunk without LR.
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Re: Importance of LR
Also consider whether the LR at your school does "grade on." If it does, you're basically selecting on the dependent variable: judges care about grades, so LR is also a proxy for good grades after 1L year.
At Y grades have no bearing on LR membership, and while LR membership definitely correlates with more feeder-y clerkships, amazing people without LR get amazing clerkships. I think it's simply that the people who want amazing clerkships also want LR and will do everything they can to get both. My sense is that outside of a handful of judges, LR matters FAR FAR less than grades when LR is not mostly a proxy for grades.
At Y grades have no bearing on LR membership, and while LR membership definitely correlates with more feeder-y clerkships, amazing people without LR get amazing clerkships. I think it's simply that the people who want amazing clerkships also want LR and will do everything they can to get both. My sense is that outside of a handful of judges, LR matters FAR FAR less than grades when LR is not mostly a proxy for grades.
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