Let's talk 2nd Circuit! Forum

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Re: Let's talk 2nd Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Sat May 22, 2021 1:44 pm

In my (humble and anonymous) opinion, you aren't going to get any of the (active, NYC) 2d Cir judges unless you get a prof to call for you. (Think, Richman, Huang, Judge, Posen, JBP, Metzger, etc).

Agreed that you're definitely out for Katzman and Livingston/Rakoff. On SDNY, probs out for Nathan, Oetken, Furman, etc.

But again, you need to have a conversation with your professors to see who they will push you for.

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Re: Let's talk 2nd Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Sat May 22, 2021 2:55 pm

Different anon from CLS - have pretty similar grades so thanks for the info! Does a 3.8 with a 2L filled with black letters (crim pro, corporations, antitrust etc etc.)would make any difference or do judges generally not care? Also are Raggi, Leval, Jacobs (seniors in general) just as tough? It seems like the actives now either require Fed Soc or near perfect grades so hoping seniors more possible.

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Re: Let's talk 2nd Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Sat May 22, 2021 3:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 2:55 pm
Different anon from CLS - have pretty similar grades so thanks for the info! Does a 3.8 with a 2L filled with black letters (crim pro, corporations, antitrust etc etc.)would make any difference or do judges generally not care? Also are Raggi, Leval, Jacobs (seniors in general) just as tough? It seems like the actives now either require Fed Soc or near perfect grades so hoping seniors more possible.
I can't speak specifically to any of the judges you mentioned, but judges certainly care about what classes you take 2/3L.

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Re: Let's talk 2nd Circuit!

Post by GoneSouth » Sat May 22, 2021 3:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 1:44 pm
In my (humble and anonymous) opinion, you aren't going to get any of the (active, NYC) 2d Cir judges unless you get a prof to call for you. (Think, Richman, Huang, Judge, Posen, JBP, Metzger, etc).

Agreed that you're definitely out for Katzman and Livingston/Rakoff. On SDNY, probs out for Nathan, Oetken, Furman, etc.

But again, you need to have a conversation with your professors to see who they will push you for.
Probably right, but I think this is basically true for circuit judges in most places. Your chances of getting a circuit clerkship anywhere without someone calling to get your application pulled out of the massive stack are not very high.

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Re: Let's talk 2nd Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Sat May 22, 2021 5:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 1:44 pm
In my (humble and anonymous) opinion, you aren't going to get any of the (active, NYC) 2d Cir judges unless you get a prof to call for you. (Think, Richman, Huang, Judge, Posen, JBP, Metzger, etc).

Agreed that you're definitely out for Katzman and Livingston/Rakoff. On SDNY, probs out for Nathan, Oetken, Furman, etc.

But again, you need to have a conversation with your professors to see who they will push you for.
FYI Park's wife Sarah Seo is now on the CLS faculty and one or two of her former RAs are going to clerk for Park, though I think causation on that might run in the other direction. She's also probably pretty useful for clerkships in general, she was on the clerkship committee at Iowa I think and clerked for Chin and Raggi.

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Re: Let's talk 2nd Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Sat May 22, 2021 9:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 3:13 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 2:55 pm
Different anon from CLS - have pretty similar grades so thanks for the info! Does a 3.8 with a 2L filled with black letters (crim pro, corporations, antitrust etc etc.)would make any difference or do judges generally not care? Also are Raggi, Leval, Jacobs (seniors in general) just as tough? It seems like the actives now either require Fed Soc or near perfect grades so hoping seniors more possible.
I can't speak specifically to any of the judges you mentioned, but judges certainly care about what classes you take 2/3L.
Agreed (this is anon from 1:44). Straight As without black letter law (Fed Courts, Corps, Admin) isnt really worth much. RR is very conservative, idk if she screens for Fed Soc. Can't speak to Leval or Jacobs. The point is, you should be applying to everyone and asking your recommenders to get judges pull your app. If you want, you can omit the judges WAY to one side of the spectrum (i.e. RR if you are ACS person, etc), but this is sort of a "take-what-you-can-get" type of situation - at least as far as CA2 in NY.

Also, re: black letter law classes. Consider taking Sentencing (with Richman and Sullivan, obv) and its how crim law will come up on the appellate docket (i.e. people complaining about how the enhancements were applied). Or, look at either (1) employment law or (2) immigration. Neither were considered "black letter" while I was at CLS (sad but true) but they are definitely black letter and the bread and butter of what federal courts do (granted, neither will be helpful if you'd want to work at firm).

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Re: Let's talk 2nd Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Sat May 22, 2021 9:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 1:44 pm
In my (humble and anonymous) opinion, you aren't going to get any of the (active, NYC) 2d Cir judges unless you get a prof to call for you. (Think, Richman, Huang, Judge, Posen, JBP, Metzger, etc).

I clerked for a NYC CA2 judge without having a phone call for me made to chambers. Granted, I was on Law Review at H/Y/S and had top grades in black letter courses. But I know for sure there was no phone call.

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Re: Let's talk 2nd Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Sat May 22, 2021 10:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 9:31 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 3:13 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 2:55 pm
Different anon from CLS - have pretty similar grades so thanks for the info! Does a 3.8 with a 2L filled with black letters (crim pro, corporations, antitrust etc etc.)would make any difference or do judges generally not care? Also are Raggi, Leval, Jacobs (seniors in general) just as tough? It seems like the actives now either require Fed Soc or near perfect grades so hoping seniors more possible.
I can't speak specifically to any of the judges you mentioned, but judges certainly care about what classes you take 2/3L.
Agreed (this is anon from 1:44). Straight As without black letter law (Fed Courts, Corps, Admin) isnt really worth much. RR is very conservative, idk if she screens for Fed Soc. Can't speak to Leval or Jacobs. The point is, you should be applying to everyone and asking your recommenders to get judges pull your app. If you want, you can omit the judges WAY to one side of the spectrum (i.e. RR if you are ACS person, etc), but this is sort of a "take-what-you-can-get" type of situation - at least as far as CA2 in NY.

Also, re: black letter law classes. Consider taking Sentencing (with Richman and Sullivan, obv) and its how crim law will come up on the appellate docket (i.e. people complaining about how the enhancements were applied). Or, look at either (1) employment law or (2) immigration. Neither were considered "black letter" while I was at CLS (sad but true) but they are definitely black letter and the bread and butter of what federal courts do (granted, neither will be helpful if you'd want to work at firm).
I am a bit surprised that employment law was not considered a BLL class. I am a current CLS student, and I would totally consider it a BLL. Although, I would consider most lecture-style classes to be BLL.Maybe things have changed, or maybe I am just out of touch lol.

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Re: Let's talk 2nd Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Sun May 23, 2021 9:32 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 9:33 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat May 22, 2021 1:44 pm
In my (humble and anonymous) opinion, you aren't going to get any of the (active, NYC) 2d Cir judges unless you get a prof to call for you. (Think, Richman, Huang, Judge, Posen, JBP, Metzger, etc).

I clerked for a NYC CA2 judge without having a phone call for me made to chambers. Granted, I was on Law Review at H/Y/S and had top grades in black letter courses. But I know for sure there was no phone call.
My advice is CLS-specific. (CLS is bad at getting clerkships in general).

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Re: Let's talk 2nd Circuit!

Post by aurelian » Wed May 26, 2021 1:47 pm

Does anyone know if Katzmann is hiring this cycle? I've heard word that he is not, but wanted to check.

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Re: Let's talk 2nd Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Wed May 26, 2021 2:05 pm

Any speculation on who the new VT judge might be?

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Re: Let's talk 2nd Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Wed May 26, 2021 5:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 2:05 pm
Any speculation on who the new VT judge might be?
Without any inside (or outside) information, I'd bet it's Beth Robinson.

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Re: Let's talk 2nd Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Fri May 28, 2021 2:38 pm

Any movement in the last month?

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Re: Let's talk 2nd Circuit!

Post by Reese1 » Fri May 28, 2021 7:07 pm

I saw some guy post on LinkedIn about getting a clerkship with Lohier FWIW

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Re: Let's talk 2nd Circuit!

Post by Sarkhan » Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:01 pm

Anyone know anything about/have thoughts on/clerk for Judge Komitee on EDNY?

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Re: Let's talk 2nd Circuit!

Post by phishphan » Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:23 pm

Sarkhan wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:01 pm
Anyone know anything about/have thoughts on/clerk for Judge Komitee on EDNY?
I certainly know more about him after interviewing with him earlier today – I assume you did the same, though.

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Re: Let's talk 2nd Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:40 pm

Calabresi has hired

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Re: Let's talk 2nd Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:34 am

Anyone know about Lee's process?

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Re: Let's talk 2nd Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:50 pm

Any update on Nardini?

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Re: Let's talk 2nd Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Dec 22, 2021 12:05 pm

Anyone know about Robinson's timeline?

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Re: Let's talk 2nd Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:40 pm

Any word on how the new appointees are doing/how they are as bosses? Robinson, Lee, Perez? And, in general, can anyone give a breakdown of what all of the CA2 judges are like?

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Re: Let's talk 2nd Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Feb 04, 2022 11:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:40 pm
Any word on how the new appointees are doing/how they are as bosses? Robinson, Lee, Perez? And, in general, can anyone give a breakdown of what all of the CA2 judges are like?
Can't speak to the newest ones (though I've heard good early things on Perez), but of the Manhattan Trump appointees:

RJS: Notably long hours, not all that ideological in hiring, still does some trial work (which explains part of the workload) and had an excellent reputation on SDNY. You can probably find stuff on here from his time as a DJ. Excellent USAO connections.

MHP: Popular/"fun" personally, works remote quite a bit but that will likely die down by the time you would start, maybe between Sullivan and Menashi in ideology-sensitivity in hiring. Seems to be a great clerkship, and recently fed to SCOTUS.

SJM: Serious personality (seems significantly older than Park even though he isn't), possibly the circuit's most conservative judge, extremely hot bench. By no means a bad clerkship, but more than the other two, probably not for everyone.

All three are among the more selective CA2 judges, and mostly hire from the top of the class at top schools.

I'll also say that based on my impression of early hires--and major caveat that I do not have complete information, and early hires aren't hired by standard processes and can be misleading--the new Biden appointees seem to be maybe less grade-sensitive than most active CA2 judges (which isn't saying much though lol).

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Re: Let's talk 2nd Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:37 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 04, 2022 11:15 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:40 pm
Any word on how the new appointees are doing/how they are as bosses? Robinson, Lee, Perez? And, in general, can anyone give a breakdown of what all of the CA2 judges are like?
Can't speak to the newest ones (though I've heard good early things on Perez), but of the Manhattan Trump appointees:

RJS: Notably long hours, not all that ideological in hiring, still does some trial work (which explains part of the workload) and had an excellent reputation on SDNY. You can probably find stuff on here from his time as a DJ. Excellent USAO connections.

MHP: Popular/"fun" personally, works remote quite a bit but that will likely die down by the time you would start, maybe between Sullivan and Menashi in ideology-sensitivity in hiring. Seems to be a great clerkship, and recently fed to SCOTUS.

SJM: Serious personality (seems significantly older than Park even though he isn't), possibly the circuit's most conservative judge, extremely hot bench. By no means a bad clerkship, but more than the other two, probably not for everyone.

All three are among the more selective CA2 judges, and mostly hire from the top of the class at top schools.

I'll also say that based on my impression of early hires--and major caveat that I do not have complete information, and early hires aren't hired by standard processes and can be misleading--the new Biden appointees seem to be maybe less grade-sensitive than most active CA2 judges (which isn't saying much though lol).
Different Anon. Anyone know more about Livingston and Lohier? And some of the seniors (Raggi, Kearse, Calabresi, etc.)

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Re: Let's talk 2nd Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Feb 05, 2022 12:55 pm

Kearse has a pretty regimented and what you might say is a "traditional" or "classical" system. She draws heavily from places like Harvard and Columbia; she puts weight on black-letter law grades on your law school transcript; Law Review membership; and writing ability (though your sample should be SHORT). She also credits past clerk recommendations (her network is now pretty extensive). A sharp, no-nonsense judge who's now older but still known as among the sharpest minds on CA2, analytically speaking.

Livingston is a legit feeder. You need SCOTUS-level grades from top schools (I mean really top -- HLS, YLS, etc.). Faculty recommenders are key here, as well-placed faculty from HYS can make a difference (if you have the grades).

Lohier is also pretty selective (it's CA2, after all), but probably not as much as Livingston. He takes a while to review, and sometimes people really like him after interviewing but still have to wait a while to get an offer.

Calabresi I'm guessing will be retiring pretty soon; he draws pretty heavily from HLS/YLS (especially Y because of his teaching connection there). Colorful guy, would be a pleasure to clerk for in terms of the interpersonal stuff.

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Re: Let's talk 2nd Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Feb 05, 2022 2:04 pm

Different anon. I agree with all of that.

Kearse is a bit behind on technology--I think she still uses WordPerfect--but remains a well-regarded judge. The Second Circuit is lucky in that it has a lot of very good, very active senior judges, and she's a good example.

Lohier probably isn't quite as grade-selective as he could be, in part because he really emphasizes URM hiring, but he's still one of the most desirable judges on the circuit. My judge thought very highly of him and he seems like a great person to work for.

Calabresi seems to take a lot of budding academics--e.g. I think two or three of the current Bigelow fellows are recent Calabresi clerks. Still very sharp even though he's winding down, and a genuinely legendary professor at YLS. Again, a very attractive clerkship, assuming he's still hiring (and I know he hired for 2023).

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