Let's Talk 4th Circuit! Forum

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Re: Let's Talk 4th Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:24 pm

also interested in Rushing. Also, any movement for Diaz or Richardson?

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Re: Let's Talk 4th Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:13 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:24 pm
also interested in Rushing. Also, any movement for Diaz or Richardson?
Richardson filled for 2021 the first day of the plan. No idea where he is on 2022.

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Re: Let's Talk 4th Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:45 am

Any word on Wilkinson recently?

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Re: Let's Talk 4th Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:52 pm

Any word if Wynn has completed hiring for 21 or his status for 22?

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Re: Let's Talk 4th Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:19 pm

Thoughts/Opinions on Judge Rushing in terms of experience clerking with her? Have heard good early musings but wanted to confirm here.

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Re: Let's Talk 4th Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:44 pm

Anyone hear anything from Wilkinson recently?

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Re: Let's Talk 4th Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:45 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:13 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:24 pm
also interested in Rushing. Also, any movement for Diaz or Richardson?
Richardson filled for 2021 the first day of the plan. No idea where he is on 2022.
In all seriousness, I wouldn’t even bother applying unless you graduated from University of Chicago Law School. He shocked the world by actually hiring one U of South Carolina clerk for this year, but generally is Chicago or bust. He must have some sort of arrangement with his alma mater.

He fancies himself a future SCOTUS Justice (despite Rushing rather than him making Trump’s new list), so credentials are the only thing that matters to him. *Maybe* he’ll make an occasional exception for one (Ivy League grad) clerk every term of two who is from S.C. but I suspect he’s going to continue to be extraordinarily loyal to Chicago.

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Re: Let's Talk 4th Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:45 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:13 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:24 pm
also interested in Rushing. Also, any movement for Diaz or Richardson?
Richardson filled for 2021 the first day of the plan. No idea where he is on 2022.
In all seriousness, I wouldn’t even bother applying unless you graduated from University of Chicago Law School. He shocked the world by actually hiring one U of South Carolina clerk for this year, but generally is Chicago or bust. He must have some sort of arrangement with his alma mater.

He fancies himself a future SCOTUS Justice (despite Rushing rather than him making Trump’s new list), so credentials are the only thing that matters to him. *Maybe* he’ll make an occasional exception for one (Ivy League grad) clerk every term of two who is from S.C. but I suspect he’s going to continue to be extraordinarily loyal to Chicago.
As a recent 4th Circuit clerk, I think this is unfair, and certainly unnecessarily discouraging to applicants. Does Judge Richardson frequently hire from his Alma mater? Yes. Does he also regularly hire from other schools? Yes. He has already hired several from UVA and Harvard, in addition to the USC student mentioned. I have no opinion on his alleged SCOTUS ambitions, though I have heard positive things about a clerkship with him.

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Re: Let's Talk 4th Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:02 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:47 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:45 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:13 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:24 pm
also interested in Rushing. Also, any movement for Diaz or Richardson?
Richardson filled for 2021 the first day of the plan. No idea where he is on 2022.
In all seriousness, I wouldn’t even bother applying unless you graduated from University of Chicago Law School. He shocked the world by actually hiring one U of South Carolina clerk for this year, but generally is Chicago or bust. He must have some sort of arrangement with his alma mater.

He fancies himself a future SCOTUS Justice (despite Rushing rather than him making Trump’s new list), so credentials are the only thing that matters to him. *Maybe* he’ll make an occasional exception for one (Ivy League grad) clerk every term of two who is from S.C. but I suspect he’s going to continue to be extraordinarily loyal to Chicago.
As a recent 4th Circuit clerk, I think this is unfair, and certainly unnecessarily discouraging to applicants. Does Judge Richardson frequently hire from his Alma mater? Yes. Does he also regularly hire from other schools? Yes. He has already hired several from UVA and Harvard, in addition to the USC student mentioned. I have no opinion on his alleged SCOTUS ambitions, though I have heard positive things about a clerkship with him.
Of Richardson's first twelve clerks, three were from Chicago, which is nothing unusual for any judge, especially a conservative one. He's very grade-selective by non-feeder/FedSoc/CA4 standards and all of his Chicago clerks have been in the top 10% afaik. He moves extremely quickly to get the small group of conservative students with top grades. He seems to care a moderate amount about ties. He's been known to hire liberal students in addition to FedSoc types. I've heard wonderful things about how he is as a boss. You read like a bitter South Carolina student; it shouldn't surprise you that students at your school are long shots for selective federal appellate judges.

Also I doubt Richardson cares about making the Trump list, if he's gunning for SCOTUS (haven't heard that fwiw) it's most likely going to be with a future Republican president (the same could be said for Rushing). And the new SCOTUS list expansion was a fairly small group of people to appease social conservatives, not a general list of the brightest lights of the new appointees, e.g. it left off Menashi, Rao, and Park.

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Re: Let's Talk 4th Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:27 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:02 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:47 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:45 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:13 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:24 pm
also interested in Rushing. Also, any movement for Diaz or Richardson?
Richardson filled for 2021 the first day of the plan. No idea where he is on 2022.
In all seriousness, I wouldn’t even bother applying unless you graduated from University of Chicago Law School. He shocked the world by actually hiring one U of South Carolina clerk for this year, but generally is Chicago or bust. He must have some sort of arrangement with his alma mater.

He fancies himself a future SCOTUS Justice (despite Rushing rather than him making Trump’s new list), so credentials are the only thing that matters to him. *Maybe* he’ll make an occasional exception for one (Ivy League grad) clerk every term of two who is from S.C. but I suspect he’s going to continue to be extraordinarily loyal to Chicago.
As a recent 4th Circuit clerk, I think this is unfair, and certainly unnecessarily discouraging to applicants. Does Judge Richardson frequently hire from his Alma mater? Yes. Does he also regularly hire from other schools? Yes. He has already hired several from UVA and Harvard, in addition to the USC student mentioned. I have no opinion on his alleged SCOTUS ambitions, though I have heard positive things about a clerkship with him.
Of Richardson's first twelve clerks, three were from Chicago, which is nothing unusual for any judge, especially a conservative one. He's very grade-selective by non-feeder/FedSoc/CA4 standards and all of his Chicago clerks have been in the top 10% afaik. He moves extremely quickly to get the small group of conservative students with top grades. He seems to care a moderate amount about ties. He's been known to hire liberal students in addition to FedSoc types. I've heard wonderful things about how he is as a boss. You read like a bitter South Carolina student; it shouldn't surprise you that students at your school are long shots for selective federal appellate judges.

Also I doubt Richardson cares about making the Trump list, if he's gunning for SCOTUS (haven't heard that fwiw) it's most likely going to be with a future Republican president (the same could be said for Rushing). And the new SCOTUS list expansion was a fairly small group of people to appease social conservatives, not a general list of the brightest lights of the new appointees, e.g. it left off Menashi, Rao, and Park.
Richardson has also hired a Duke student. The UChicago or bust talk is simply not true.

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Re: Let's Talk 4th Circuit!

Post by lavarman84 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:02 am
And the new SCOTUS list expansion was a fairly small group of people to appease social conservatives, not a general list of the brightest lights of the new appointees, e.g. it left off Menashi, Rao, and Park.
Pause. Did you really just say . . .
Image

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Re: Let's Talk 4th Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:16 pm

lavarman84 wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:02 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:02 am
And the new SCOTUS list expansion was a fairly small group of people to appease social conservatives, not a general list of the brightest lights of the new appointees, e.g. it left off Menashi, Rao, and Park.
Pause. Did you really just say . . .
Image
Not implying she's bright (or any of them, though early indications on Park are good imo, maybe why he missed the list), I meant more "prominent young conservatives you would expect to find on such a list"

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Re: Let's Talk 4th Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:27 pm

any info on Quattlebaum?

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Re: Let's Talk 4th Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:27 pm
any info on Quattlebaum?
Recently received a rejection letter by mail.

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Re: Let's Talk 4th Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:17 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:45 am
Any word on Wilkinson recently?
Yes. He’s still an absolute jerk who treats lawyers like shit, yells in every argument, and doesn’t let lawyers actually speak and advocate for their clients. It would be nice if he would stop and listen for a change during arguments.

As someone who has clerked and practiced for several years, I’m disappointed that there are Judges like Wilkinson on the bench. For what it’s worth, I’ve heard he treats his clerks well and that it’s an easy clerkship because he insists on doing all the work.

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Re: Let's Talk 4th Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:32 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:02 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:47 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:45 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:13 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:24 pm
also interested in Rushing. Also, any movement for Diaz or Richardson?
Richardson filled for 2021 the first day of the plan. No idea where he is on 2022.
In all seriousness, I wouldn’t even bother applying unless you graduated from University of Chicago Law School. He shocked the world by actually hiring one U of South Carolina clerk for this year, but generally is Chicago or bust. He must have some sort of arrangement with his alma mater.

He fancies himself a future SCOTUS Justice (despite Rushing rather than him making Trump’s new list), so credentials are the only thing that matters to him. *Maybe* he’ll make an occasional exception for one (Ivy League grad) clerk every term of two who is from S.C. but I suspect he’s going to continue to be extraordinarily loyal to Chicago.
As a recent 4th Circuit clerk, I think this is unfair, and certainly unnecessarily discouraging to applicants. Does Judge Richardson frequently hire from his Alma mater? Yes. Does he also regularly hire from other schools? Yes. He has already hired several from UVA and Harvard, in addition to the USC student mentioned. I have no opinion on his alleged SCOTUS ambitions, though I have heard positive things about a clerkship with him.
Of Richardson's first twelve clerks, three were from Chicago, which is nothing unusual for any judge, especially a conservative one. He's very grade-selective by non-feeder/FedSoc/CA4 standards and all of his Chicago clerks have been in the top 10% afaik. He moves extremely quickly to get the small group of conservative students with top grades. He seems to care a moderate amount about ties. He's been known to hire liberal students in addition to FedSoc types. I've heard wonderful things about how he is as a boss. You read like a bitter South Carolina student; it shouldn't surprise you that students at your school are long shots for selective federal appellate judges.

Also I doubt Richardson cares about making the Trump list, if he's gunning for SCOTUS (haven't heard that fwiw) it's most likely going to be with a future Republican president (the same could be said for Rushing). And the new SCOTUS list expansion was a fairly small group of people to appease social conservatives, not a general list of the brightest lights of the new appointees, e.g. it left off Menashi, Rao, and Park.
Fair enough, I stand corrected. When I clerked, it seemed like he had several Chicago grads and the rumor among other chambers was that he was going to continue to have UChicago feed him clerks. Glad he’s diversifying.

To be clear, I’m not a USC Law grad. Didn’t apply to Richardson because I didn’t want to work for him. I clerked for another Judge. I have heard nothing but good things about working for Richardson. He treats his people well and is certainly smart. But he’s transparently gunning for a SCOTUS seat. It’s why he writes completely irrelevant and unnecessary concurrences all the time.

Not trying to dissuade anyone from applying to him. Go for it. You’ll really enjoy working at the 4th Circuit. I just think he’s a bit of an elitist. But so are many, if not most, COA judges. I just think it’s sad that 25 year old Ivy League students who have never been in a trial courtroom or represented a client are the people who end up writing the bulk of our appellate case law. Clerkships are great experiences, but there’s nothing more dangerous than an ideological first year lawyer writing an appellate decision. That goes for both ends of the political spectrum.

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Re: Let's Talk 4th Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:50 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:38 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 4:27 pm
any info on Quattlebaum?
Recently received a rejection letter by mail.
same here, but seems like a nice person fwiw

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Re: Let's Talk 4th Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:04 pm

Actually though, Quattlebaum has one of the better reputations on the 4th Cir and is well-like by judges and clerks across the political spectrum. All of his clerks rave about the job too, and he hires from all kinds of schools.

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Re: Let's Talk 4th Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:04 pm
Actually though, Quattlebaum has one of the better reputations on the 4th Cir and is well-like by judges and clerks across the political spectrum. All of his clerks rave about the job too, and he hires from all kinds of schools.

Seconding all of this. He's a reasonable judge and a genuinely nice person. Sounds like a great clerkship and I don't think he hires ideologically.

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:32 am
To be clear, I’m not a USC Law grad. Didn’t apply to Richardson because I didn’t want to work for him. I clerked for another Judge. I have heard nothing but good things about working for Richardson. He treats his people well and is certainly smart. But he’s transparently gunning for a SCOTUS seat. It’s why he writes completely irrelevant and unnecessary concurrences all the time.

Spot on. I'm not sure they're having the effect he's going for, and they might even be backfiring. Don't know what clerking for him is like.

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:17 am
Yes. He’s still an absolute jerk who treats lawyers like shit, yells in every argument, and doesn’t let lawyers actually speak and advocate for their clients. It would be nice if he would stop and listen for a change during arguments.

As someone who has clerked and practiced for several years, I’m disappointed that there are Judges like Wilkinson on the bench. For what it’s worth, I’ve heard he treats his clerks well and that it’s an easy clerkship because he insists on doing all the work.

Wilkinson is obviously still a massive feeder, but I've heard neutral to negative things about clerking for him in recent years. It's not a ton of work, but I don't think it's a pleasant experience, either. (I was also surprised to find that he's one of the least analytically/intellectually rigorous judges on the court. He's an excellent writer, but behind the prose and brand name there's not a lot of substance. He's driven much more by his feelings and intuitions than by text, precedent, or anything else legal.)

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Re: Let's Talk 4th Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:45 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:04 pm
Actually though, Quattlebaum has one of the better reputations on the 4th Cir and is well-like by judges and clerks across the political spectrum. All of his clerks rave about the job too, and he hires from all kinds of schools.

Seconding all of this. He's a reasonable judge and a genuinely nice person. Sounds like a great clerkship and I don't think he hires ideologically.

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:32 am
To be clear, I’m not a USC Law grad. Didn’t apply to Richardson because I didn’t want to work for him. I clerked for another Judge. I have heard nothing but good things about working for Richardson. He treats his people well and is certainly smart. But he’s transparently gunning for a SCOTUS seat. It’s why he writes completely irrelevant and unnecessary concurrences all the time.

Spot on. I'm not sure they're having the effect he's going for, and they might even be backfiring. Don't know what clerking for him is like.

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:17 am
Yes. He’s still an absolute jerk who treats lawyers like shit, yells in every argument, and doesn’t let lawyers actually speak and advocate for their clients. It would be nice if he would stop and listen for a change during arguments.

As someone who has clerked and practiced for several years, I’m disappointed that there are Judges like Wilkinson on the bench. For what it’s worth, I’ve heard he treats his clerks well and that it’s an easy clerkship because he insists on doing all the work.

Wilkinson is obviously still a massive feeder, but I've heard neutral to negative things about clerking for him in recent years. It's not a ton of work, but I don't think it's a pleasant experience, either. (I was also surprised to find that he's one of the least analytically/intellectually rigorous judges on the court. He's an excellent writer, but behind the prose and brand name there's not a lot of substance. He's driven much more by his feelings and intuitions than by text, precedent, or anything else legal.)
Wilkinson is a good example of the fundamental truth that being a feeder is not necessarily a marker of merit, but of tradition, networking, who the justices are buddies with, etc.

See also:

- Dabney Friederich (now a mini-feeder mostly because she's Kavanaugh's ex)

- the huge overrepresentation of the D.C. Circuit (especially the judges who are former appellate practitioners) among feeders

- that there are essentially no liberal feeders outside the Acela corridor and California, even though many judges in the rest of the country have serious claims to be at least as good as the justices/feeders (e.g. Diane Wood, Sidney Thomas, Gregg Costa, and even some district judges like Keith Ellison and Lee Rosenthal)

- Thapar networking his way into feeding by being Sutton's buddy (he's a great writer and serious person, but so are tons of other flyover district judges who aren't remotely feeders)

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Re: Let's Talk 4th Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:40 pm

Wow lots of hot takes on Wilkinson here. Just thought I'd put in a slightly different note--I've talked to a recent (liberal) clerk of his who didn't speak much to the specifics of their experience but seemed to regard him with the same affection you might have for a kooky uncle who has a lot of strong opinions that you disagree with but at the end of the day is a great guy. This clerk also said Wilkinson is not a fan of sycophants and wants his clerks to give it to him straight.

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Re: Let's Talk 4th Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:40 pm

Anyone heard if Motz has started interviewing for 22-23 yet?

Relatedly, any word if she's planning to take senior status at the end of this term?

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Re: Let's Talk 4th Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:41 pm

Anyone heard if Motz has started interviewing for 22-23 yet?

Relatedly, any word if she's planning to take senior status at the end of this term?

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Re: Let's Talk 4th Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:01 pm

Thoughts on or clerking stories about newer appointees: Rushing, Quattlebaum, Richardson?

Looks like some pretty decent praise for Quattlebaum and Richardson based on their backgrounds. Any idea what they're like in chambers?

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Re: Let's Talk 4th Circuit!

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:01 pm
Thoughts on or clerking stories about newer appointees: Rushing, Quattlebaum, Richardson?

Looks like some pretty decent praise for Quattlebaum and Richardson based on their backgrounds. Any idea what they're like in chambers?
I’ve seen warnings on TLS about how Rushing treats her clerks so I recommend looking into those. I don’t have anything to add though.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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