Let's talk 6th Circuit! Forum

[Anonymous User]

What's the power ranking of the liberal judges in terms of desirability?

[Anonymous User]

What's the power ranking of the liberal judges in terms of desirability?

From what I understand, Stranch and Cole are wonderful to work for. No clue about Moore, but she seems like a liberal icon and I haven’t heard anything bad about her/hours. Donald travels a lot, but is purportedly a lovely person.

No clue about Davis. Clay is absolutely the worst in terms of hours and attitude out of any judge in the circuit. I have heard he’s cleaned up his act a bit in recent years, but I don’t know to what extent.

[Anonymous User]

What's the power ranking of the liberal judges in terms of desirability?

I'd say, in descending order: Moore, Cole, Stranch, Donald. I wouldn't clerk for Clay. For moderate liberals, all these options are behind counter-clerking for Sutton/Kethledge/Thapar.

[Anonymous User]

Bloomekatz will almost certainly be the most desirable CA6 judge for a liberal though

And if what you want is prestige, Murphy, Sutton, and Thapar all hire counterclerks to some extent (not sure re Kethledge but imo he is the best writer on the circuit and probably one of the top five in the federal judiciary)

[Anonymous User]

Bloomekatz will almost certainly be the most desirable CA6 judge for a liberal though

And if what you want is prestige, Murphy, Sutton, and Thapar all hire counterclerks to some extent (not sure re Kethledge but imo he is the best writer on the circuit and probably one of the top five in the federal judiciary)

Murphy is a smart judge, but he doesn’t belong on the same list as Sutton and Thapar. He hasn’t fed once, and no one outside the Sixth Circuit knows who he is. Seems like a nice guy though.

Absolutely no reason to consider Murphy over Kethledge. Also, Murphy doesn’t share bench memos, so it’s several times more work.

Also from what I hear, Kethledge seems like a better boss than Thapar or even Sutton.

[Anonymous User]

Bloomekatz will almost certainly be the most desirable CA6 judge for a liberal though

And if what you want is prestige, Murphy, Sutton, and Thapar all hire counterclerks to some extent (not sure re Kethledge but imo he is the best writer on the circuit and probably one of the top five in the federal judiciary)

Murphy is a smart judge, but he doesn’t belong on the same list as Sutton and Thapar. He hasn’t fed once, and no one outside the Sixth Circuit knows who he is. Seems like a nice guy though.

Absolutely no reason to consider Murphy over Kethledge. Also, Murphy doesn’t share bench memos, so it’s several times more work.

Also from what I hear, Kethledge seems like a better boss than Thapar or even Sutton.

I didn't mean to say Murphy is better than Kethledge, Kethledge is obviously a better clerkship, I just don't know if he hires counterclerks. Murphy is also likely to become a semi-feeder, he hasn't been on the bench for long.

[Anonymous User]

Bloomekatz will almost certainly be the most desirable CA6 judge for a liberal though

And if what you want is prestige, Murphy, Sutton, and Thapar all hire counterclerks to some extent (not sure re Kethledge but imo he is the best writer on the circuit and probably one of the top five in the federal judiciary)

Murphy is a smart judge, but he doesn’t belong on the same list as Sutton and Thapar. He hasn’t fed once, and no one outside the Sixth Circuit knows who he is. Seems like a nice guy though.

Absolutely no reason to consider Murphy over Kethledge. Also, Murphy doesn’t share bench memos, so it’s several times more work.

Also from what I hear, Kethledge seems like a better boss than Thapar or even Sutton.

I didn't mean to say Murphy is better than Kethledge, Kethledge is obviously a better clerkship, I just don't know if he hires counterclerks. Murphy is also likely to become a semi-feeder, he hasn't been on the bench for long.

You could say that last sentence about basically any of the talented young Trump judges that have recently joined the bench. A little weird to make it sound like clerking for Murphy is a prestige upgrade over other comparable judges, when it’s not. If anything, Murphy seems like the shy quiet type, not someone who will aggressively jostle to become a semi-feeder (like Stras or something)

[Anonymous User]

Bloomekatz will almost certainly be the most desirable CA6 judge for a liberal though

And if what you want is prestige, Murphy, Sutton, and Thapar all hire counterclerks to some extent (not sure re Kethledge but imo he is the best writer on the circuit and probably one of the top five in the federal judiciary)

Murphy is a smart judge, but he doesn’t belong on the same list as Sutton and Thapar. He hasn’t fed once, and no one outside the Sixth Circuit knows who he is. Seems like a nice guy though.

Absolutely no reason to consider Murphy over Kethledge. Also, Murphy doesn’t share bench memos, so it’s several times more work.

Also from what I hear, Kethledge seems like a better boss than Thapar or even Sutton.

I didn't mean to say Murphy is better than Kethledge, Kethledge is obviously a better clerkship, I just don't know if he hires counterclerks. Murphy is also likely to become a semi-feeder, he hasn't been on the bench for long.

My 2c: as bosses, Sutton and Kethledge are out in front, with Thapar a step behind; as feeders, Sutton and Thapar are out in front, with Kethledge a step behind. As far as I know, they all hire counterclerks. Sutton hires the most, then Thapar, then Kethledge. Murphy will be a semi-feeder eventually and is by reputation an amazing boss. I don't know if he hires counterclerks. Larsen is also in the mix.

[Anonymous User]

Bloomekatz will almost certainly be the most desirable CA6 judge for a liberal though

And if what you want is prestige, Murphy, Sutton, and Thapar all hire counterclerks to some extent (not sure re Kethledge but imo he is the best writer on the circuit and probably one of the top five in the federal judiciary)

Murphy is a smart judge, but he doesn’t belong on the same list as Sutton and Thapar. He hasn’t fed once, and no one outside the Sixth Circuit knows who he is. Seems like a nice guy though.

Absolutely no reason to consider Murphy over Kethledge. Also, Murphy doesn’t share bench memos, so it’s several times more work.

Also from what I hear, Kethledge seems like a better boss than Thapar or even Sutton.

I didn't mean to say Murphy is better than Kethledge, Kethledge is obviously a better clerkship, I just don't know if he hires counterclerks. Murphy is also likely to become a semi-feeder, he hasn't been on the bench for long.

My 2c: as bosses, Sutton and Kethledge are out in front, with Thapar a step behind; as feeders, Sutton and Thapar are out in front, with Kethledge a step behind. As far as I know, they all hire counterclerks. Sutton hires the most, then Thapar, then Kethledge. Murphy will be a semi-feeder eventually and is by reputation an amazing boss. I don't know if he hires counterclerks. Larsen is also in the mix.

Larsen is already a semi feeder, unlike Murphy. Not sure why anyone (other than Murphy clerks) would keep lumping him in with these other judges, including Larsen.

[Anonymous User]

Bloomekatz will almost certainly be the most desirable CA6 judge for a liberal though

And if what you want is prestige, Murphy, Sutton, and Thapar all hire counterclerks to some extent (not sure re Kethledge but imo he is the best writer on the circuit and probably one of the top five in the federal judiciary)

Murphy is a smart judge, but he doesn’t belong on the same list as Sutton and Thapar. He hasn’t fed once, and no one outside the Sixth Circuit knows who he is. Seems like a nice guy though.

Absolutely no reason to consider Murphy over Kethledge. Also, Murphy doesn’t share bench memos, so it’s several times more work.

Also from what I hear, Kethledge seems like a better boss than Thapar or even Sutton.

I didn't mean to say Murphy is better than Kethledge, Kethledge is obviously a better clerkship, I just don't know if he hires counterclerks. Murphy is also likely to become a semi-feeder, he hasn't been on the bench for long.

My 2c: as bosses, Sutton and Kethledge are out in front, with Thapar a step behind; as feeders, Sutton and Thapar are out in front, with Kethledge a step behind. As far as I know, they all hire counterclerks. Sutton hires the most, then Thapar, then Kethledge. Murphy will be a semi-feeder eventually and is by reputation an amazing boss. I don't know if he hires counterclerks. Larsen is also in the mix.

Larsen is already a semi feeder, unlike Murphy. Not sure why anyone (other than Murphy clerks) would keep lumping him in with these other judges, including Larsen.

I'm the poster you're responding to and not a Murphy clerk. In my opinion, Larsen is the next most desirable clerkship after the big three. Murphy is next after her. He's a former SCOTUS clerk, he's begun distinguishing himself with his writings, and he's close with Sutton. Based on his recent hires, I wouldn't be surprised if he catches up with Larsen in a few years.

[Anonymous User]

Bloomekatz will almost certainly be the most desirable CA6 judge for a liberal though

And if what you want is prestige, Murphy, Sutton, and Thapar all hire counterclerks to some extent (not sure re Kethledge but imo he is the best writer on the circuit and probably one of the top five in the federal judiciary)

Murphy is a smart judge, but he doesn’t belong on the same list as Sutton and Thapar. He hasn’t fed once, and no one outside the Sixth Circuit knows who he is. Seems like a nice guy though.

Absolutely no reason to consider Murphy over Kethledge. Also, Murphy doesn’t share bench memos, so it’s several times more work.

Also from what I hear, Kethledge seems like a better boss than Thapar or even Sutton.

I didn't mean to say Murphy is better than Kethledge, Kethledge is obviously a better clerkship, I just don't know if he hires counterclerks. Murphy is also likely to become a semi-feeder, he hasn't been on the bench for long.

My 2c: as bosses, Sutton and Kethledge are out in front, with Thapar a step behind; as feeders, Sutton and Thapar are out in front, with Kethledge a step behind. As far as I know, they all hire counterclerks. Sutton hires the most, then Thapar, then Kethledge. Murphy will be a semi-feeder eventually and is by reputation an amazing boss. I don't know if he hires counterclerks. Larsen is also in the mix.

Larsen is already a semi feeder, unlike Murphy. Not sure why anyone (other than Murphy clerks) would keep lumping him in with these other judges, including Larsen.

Original poster who mentioned Murphy (also not a Murphy clerk). Larsen has been on the bench for two terms longer than Murphy, and I know of a Murphy hire who is virtually guaranteed to get SCOTUS if they want it. There's no reason to think Murphy will not feed some, just like every other Fed Soc judge with his resume. I didn't mention Larsen because I believe she does not hire counterclerks, while Murphy does.

[Anonymous User]

Bloomekatz will almost certainly be the most desirable CA6 judge for a liberal though

And if what you want is prestige, Murphy, Sutton, and Thapar all hire counterclerks to some extent (not sure re Kethledge but imo he is the best writer on the circuit and probably one of the top five in the federal judiciary)

Murphy is a smart judge, but he doesn’t belong on the same list as Sutton and Thapar. He hasn’t fed once, and no one outside the Sixth Circuit knows who he is. Seems like a nice guy though.

Absolutely no reason to consider Murphy over Kethledge. Also, Murphy doesn’t share bench memos, so it’s several times more work.

Also from what I hear, Kethledge seems like a better boss than Thapar or even Sutton.

I didn't mean to say Murphy is better than Kethledge, Kethledge is obviously a better clerkship, I just don't know if he hires counterclerks. Murphy is also likely to become a semi-feeder, he hasn't been on the bench for long.

You could say that last sentence about basically any of the talented young Trump judges that have recently joined the bench. A little weird to make it sound like clerking for Murphy is a prestige upgrade over other comparable judges, when it’s not. If anything, Murphy seems like the shy quiet type, not someone who will aggressively jostle to become a semi-feeder (like Stras or something)

Murphy is a former major-state SG, but yes, I think most of the young Trump judges with comparable resumes will feed, as we have seen. E.g. Park and Bress were confirmed around the same time as Murphy, and it was obvious that they would feed even before they got their first feeds this term. Likewise, Menashi, another relatively late Trump appointee, also hasn't fed to my knowledge but I think it's pretty obvious that he will eventually.

[Anonymous User]

Different poster. Yeah, the Murphy clerks I know aren't getting anywhere near SCOTUS anytime soon. Sounds like Murphy clerks are projecting how they'd like their clerkships to be perceived. There's plenty of judges who are SCOTUS clerks who don't feed, think James Ho. And Murphy clerked for Kennedy, so not sure how much that is going to help him. Heck even Bush fed before Murphy and no one thinks he is going to be regular feeder or semi-feeder. The fact is Trump nominated so many high-flying young lawyers that it's impossible to predict who is gonna actually feed.

[Anonymous User]

Different poster. Yeah, the Murphy clerks I know aren't getting anywhere near SCOTUS anytime soon. Sounds like Murphy clerks are projecting how they'd like their clerkships to be perceived. There's plenty of judges who are SCOTUS clerks who don't feed, think James Ho. And Murphy clerked for Kennedy, so not sure how much that is going to help him. Heck even Bush fed before Murphy and no one thinks he is going to be regular feeder or semi-feeder. The fact is Trump nominated so many high-flying young lawyers that it's impossible to predict who is gonna actually feed.

This. Also, not clear why anyone thinks clerking for Kennedy will help Murphy. Also lol at that post that implied Murphy and Larsen are similarly competitive. Thapar and Pryor are as mega feedery as they come, and they didn’t clerk on the Court.

[Anonymous User]

What's the power ranking of the liberal judges in terms of desirability?

My subjective and probably flawed list:

1. Moore. The liberal lioness. Ruthless in her interactions with the conservatives, but that could be a plus if you're a liberal. Guessing she's a stern but good boss.

2. Cole. A class act, both to other judges and clerks. A little bit closer to the center, ideologically.

3. White. Well-respected by both sides. Super smart. But works long and strange hours. Republican nominee but liberal in outlook.

4. Stranch. Extremely friendly. Has that southern charm. Closer to the left end of the spectrum, doesn't have the intellectual heft of a Moore but seems like a great boss.

5. Donald. Lovely person, sings for other judges at gatherings. But travels a lot and isn't always plugged in, so clerks may not get as much supervision or mentorship as they would like.

6. Clay. Lol.

[Anonymous User]

I mean, what is more statistically likely, that the posters saying you're wrong are literal Murphy clerks--of whom there are only eight so far--or that they have information you don't re: future hires. I know of the surefire-SCOTUS Murphy clerk through my law school, which means that hundreds of other people also know of them--not a huge secret. Sure, I also know/know of Murphy clerks who are not remotely plausible SCOTUS candidates, but I know/know of Bibas, Stras, and Willett clerks who aren't either, that's the nature of semi-feeding.

Also lol at the idea that clerking for Kennedy will not help you feed (most obviously with BMK). But you're also ignoring that he was Ohio SG for six years, and major SSG offices tend to have excellent SCOTUS connections. Similarly, the idea that who feeds first feeds most is nonsense--nobody thinks Bush is going to feed more than Menashi. Ho is a good comp for Murphy, but he's an exception that proves the rule, he could feed if he wanted to.

[Anonymous User]

I mean, what is more statistically likely, that the posters saying you're wrong are literal Murphy clerks--of whom there are only eight so far--or that they have information you don't re: future hires. I know of the surefire-SCOTUS Murphy clerk through my law school, which means that hundreds of other people also know of them--not a huge secret. Sure, I also know/know of Murphy clerks who are not remotely plausible SCOTUS candidates, but I know/know of Bibas, Stras, and Willett clerks who aren't either, that's the nature of semi-feeding.

Also lol at the idea that clerking for Kennedy will not help you feed (most obviously with BMK). But you're also ignoring that he was Ohio SG for six years, and major SSG offices tend to have excellent SCOTUS connections. Similarly, the idea that who feeds first feeds most is nonsense--nobody thinks Bush is going to feed more than Menashi.

What does "surefire-SCOTUS" even mean? And if they are that "surefire," why aren't they stacking Katsas and Thapar or something? Wasn't Ho the SG of Texas? Doesn't sound like it made much of a difference, and he is way more nationally prominent than a Murphy.

Also, just curious, why is it 8 clerks? Didn't Murphy join the bench in 2019, so it should be at least 12? Not doubting, just curious. Did one class stay for two years?

[Anonymous User]

I mean, what is more statistically likely, that the posters saying you're wrong are literal Murphy clerks--of whom there are only eight so far--or that they have information you don't re: future hires. I know of the surefire-SCOTUS Murphy clerk through my law school, which means that hundreds of other people also know of them--not a huge secret. Sure, I also know/know of Murphy clerks who are not remotely plausible SCOTUS candidates, but I know/know of Bibas, Stras, and Willett clerks who aren't either, that's the nature of semi-feeding.

Also lol at the idea that clerking for Kennedy will not help you feed (most obviously with BMK). But you're also ignoring that he was Ohio SG for six years, and major SSG offices tend to have excellent SCOTUS connections. Similarly, the idea that who feeds first feeds most is nonsense--nobody thinks Bush is going to feed more than Menashi.

What does "surefire-SCOTUS" even mean? And if they are that "surefire," why aren't they stacking Katsas and Thapar or something? Wasn't Ho the SG of Texas? Doesn't sound like it made much of a difference, and he is way more nationally prominent than a Murphy.

Also, just curious, why is it 8 clerks? Didn't Murphy join the bench in 2019, so it should be at least 12? Not doubting, just curious. Did one class stay for two years?

Surefire-SCOTUS is indeed stacked with an indisputable mega-feeder and also has other characteristics (grades, school, background, ideology) that make them surefire, though I don't want to give enough info to dox someone else to score internet points. Plenty of people on here will know who this is, like I said it isn't a secret. And yeah it's 12, I miscounted.

Ho doesn't care about feeding and doesn't try to hire feeder-level candidates, you missed my edit but he is a good comparator background-wise.

[Anonymous User]

I mean, what is more statistically likely, that the posters saying you're wrong are literal Murphy clerks--of whom there are only eight so far--or that they have information you don't re: future hires. I know of the surefire-SCOTUS Murphy clerk through my law school, which means that hundreds of other people also know of them--not a huge secret. Sure, I also know/know of Murphy clerks who are not remotely plausible SCOTUS candidates, but I know/know of Bibas, Stras, and Willett clerks who aren't either, that's the nature of semi-feeding.

Also lol at the idea that clerking for Kennedy will not help you feed (most obviously with BMK). But you're also ignoring that he was Ohio SG for six years, and major SSG offices tend to have excellent SCOTUS connections. Similarly, the idea that who feeds first feeds most is nonsense--nobody thinks Bush is going to feed more than Menashi.

What does "surefire-SCOTUS" even mean? And if they are that "surefire," why aren't they stacking Katsas and Thapar or something? Wasn't Ho the SG of Texas? Doesn't sound like it made much of a difference, and he is way more nationally prominent than a Murphy.

Also, just curious, why is it 8 clerks? Didn't Murphy join the bench in 2019, so it should be at least 12? Not doubting, just curious. Did one class stay for two years?

Surefire-SCOTUS is indeed stacked with an indisputable mega-feeder and also has other characteristics (grades, school, background, ideology) that make them surefire, though I don't want to give enough info to dox someone else to score internet points. Plenty of people on here will know who this is, like I said it isn't a secret. And yeah it's 12, I miscounted.

Ho doesn't care about feeding and doesn't try to hire feeder-level candidates, you missed my edit but he is a good comparator background-wise.

Well I meant double stacking two mega feeders, because that's what "surefire" people do (assuming that's even a thing...), but that's beside the point. I mean most young Trump judges have paired up at least occasionally with the big feeders, including basically every other Trump judge in the Sixth Circuit. I guess we can agree to disagree, but this thing about Murphy being this up-and-coming feeder is just totally out of left field for me. And that original post that tagged Murphy along with the Sutton, Larsen, etc was just weird and clumsy. 16+ clerks and one feed to a bona fide feeder (when other judges have fed to scotus in that time) isn't that remarkable in the conservative legal world...

[Anonymous User]

What's the power ranking of the liberal judges in terms of desirability?

My subjective and probably flawed list:

1. Moore. The liberal lioness. Ruthless in her interactions with the conservatives, but that could be a plus if you're a liberal. Guessing she's a stern but good boss.

2. Cole. A class act, both to other judges and clerks. A little bit closer to the center, ideologically.

3. White. Well-respected by both sides. Super smart. But works long and strange hours. Republican nominee but liberal in outlook.

4. Stranch. Extremely friendly. Has that southern charm. Closer to the left end of the spectrum, doesn't have the intellectual heft of a Moore but seems like a great boss.

5. Donald. Lovely person, sings for other judges at gatherings. But travels a lot and isn't always plugged in, so clerks may not get as much supervision or mentorship as they would like.

6. Clay. Lol.

Any thoughts on Davis? Sounds like she had a good rep as a district court judge.

[Anonymous User]

A lot of this depends on how finely you want to differentiate among the judges. If you're hyper-precise, I'd suggest that Thapar and Sutton are in a tier with only two or three judges in the country for conservatives (Pryor and Katsas the obvious others but maybe there's another couple).

After that, Kethledge and Larsen would be their own tier and Murphy would be in the tier below. But the Sixth Circuit is so deep that Kethledge and Larsen would be in the top tier of most other circuits (First, Second, Third, Fourth, Seventh, Eighth, Ninth, Tenth for sure – maybe not the Fifth or Eleventh). So saying Murphy is a "third-tier" in the Sixth Circuit doesn't mean he isn't getting great clerks. It just means the Sixth Circuit is unusually rich for conservatives with more starpower than all but the Fifth or Eleventh. And even there, I'm not sure Kethledge and Larsen wouldn't be seen as top tier.

But this is a very granular view. For 99% of things like BigLaw or academia or general conservative politics, it's fine to lump them all together or in just two buckets at most with the recognition that clerk hiring has some noise so some great Murphy clerks are better than your average Sutton or Thapar clerks because they're all competitive on a national level.

[Anonymous User]

A lot of this depends on how finely you want to differentiate among the judges. If you're hyper-precise, I'd suggest that Thapar and Sutton are in a tier with only two or three judges in the country for conservatives (Pryor and Katsas the obvious others but maybe there's another couple).

After that, Kethledge and Larsen would be their own tier and Murphy would be in the tier below. But the Sixth Circuit is so deep that Kethledge and Larsen would be in the top tier of most other circuits (First, Second, Third, Fourth, Seventh, Eighth, Ninth, Tenth for sure – maybe not the Fifth or Eleventh). So saying Murphy is a "third-tier" in the Sixth Circuit doesn't mean he isn't getting great clerks. It just means the Sixth Circuit is unusually rich for conservatives with more starpower than all but the Fifth or Eleventh. And even there, I'm not sure Kethledge and Larsen wouldn't be seen as top tier.

But this is a very granular view. For 99% of things like BigLaw or academia or general conservative politics, it's fine to lump them all together or in just two buckets at most with the recognition that clerk hiring has some noise so some great Murphy clerks are better than your average Sutton or Thapar clerks because they're all competitive on a national level.

Agreed. Arguably the Sixth Circuit has more starpower than the Fifth or Eleventh. As you note, only Pryor and Katsas rival the top Sixth Circuit feeders.

On the Murphy debate: I don't know which clerk the other poster has in mind, but I'd predict Murphy has 2-3 feeds in the next 2-3 SCOTUS terms (with help from other feeders, of course).

[Anonymous User]

I have no dog in the Murphy fight, but the number one thing that makes a feeder judge a feeder is whether they aggressively pitch their clerks to the justices, or to other feeder judges, usually even before the clerk has worked for them.

I don't know if Murphy does this or not, but there is a reason you see some of the Trump judges with an incredible number of clerks lined up for SCOTUS already, and it is not because Alito or Thomas just liked that judge when they were a clerk over their other clerks.

[Anonymous User]

Lol all this talk of some future “surefire” clerk makes it pretty obvious that this is either a Murphy clerk or a gunner in law school that doesn’t know anything.

[Anonymous User]

Really weird to see Murphy draw such a strange conversation. He’s a very smart judge and reportedly quite nice.