Best and worst judges to clerk for Forum

[Anonymous User]

Thank you for the awesome write up! Do you happen to know about how Lipez or Griffin hire? Are they willing to look past school pedigree for candidates with district court experience?

I think that Lipez places a high value on both school and experience. His writing is very precise and he focuses on how doctrines evolve to produce a legal rule. Also, New England as a culture seems to place a higher value on academic credentials than other places. So I think he likes to see editorial board for law review.

Griffin might be more willing to look past school. I know his application requires something like four writing samples. Two civil and two criminal. Don't quote me on that though.

Judge Arnold on the 8th Cir. is hiring as of yesterday per OSCAR. I clerked in the Dist. where he was a trial judge and I think he is pretty old school in terms of hiring. (He did take senior status in 2006). He would be willing to look past school toward more practical experience I think. However, I have never come across his former clerks, so I cant say for sure. But being around the judges that replaced him on both the USDC (Judge Barnes who passed) and the COA (Judge Shepherd, who generally only hires people connected to Arkansas), I can say there is an overall culture that places a high value on experience rather than academics.

Griffin has one career clerk and I think three term clerks. I don't know if he ever hires clerks for shorter than a two-year term. Many of his clerks have Michigan ties, and many/most have clerked before. One recent clerk of his was on his fifth and sixth years of clerkships in Michigan during his Griffin clerkship (after four years of state-court clerkships), and while that's at least somewhat unusual, that may give you an idea of the types of people Griffin hires.

[Anonymous User]

Thank you for the awesome write up! Do you happen to know about how Lipez or Griffin hire? Are they willing to look past school pedigree for candidates with district court experience?

Griffin might be more willing to look past school. I know his application requires something like four writing samples. Two civil and two criminal. Don't quote me on that though.

Griffin has one career clerk and I think three term clerks. I don't know if he ever hires clerks for shorter than a two-year term. Many of his clerks have Michigan ties, and many/most have clerked before. One recent clerk of his was on his fifth and sixth years of clerkships in Michigan during his Griffin clerkship (after four years of state-court clerkships), and while that's at least somewhat unusual, that may give you an idea of the types of people Griffin hires.

Griffin requires clerkship experience but it doesn’t need to be more than one year. Typically he hires federal district court clerks from within the circuit (not necessarily MI) or state appellate clerks from MI. Agree that Michigan ties seem important.

[Anonymous User]

I know Kenneth Lee has recently hired some liberal clerks even though you’d think he’d be really conservative

[Anonymous User]

For which term?

[Anonymous User]

Thank you for the awesome write up! Do you happen to know about how Lipez or Griffin hire? Are they willing to look past school pedigree for candidates with district court experience?

Griffin might be more willing to look past school. I know his application requires something like four writing samples. Two civil and two criminal. Don't quote me on that though.

Griffin has one career clerk and I think three term clerks. I don't know if he ever hires clerks for shorter than a two-year term. Many of his clerks have Michigan ties, and many/most have clerked before. One recent clerk of his was on his fifth and sixth years of clerkships in Michigan during his Griffin clerkship (after four years of state-court clerkships), and while that's at least somewhat unusual, that may give you an idea of the types of people Griffin hires.

Griffin requires clerkship experience but it doesn’t need to be more than one year. Typically he hires federal district court clerks from within the circuit (not necessarily MI) or state appellate clerks from MI. Agree that Michigan ties seem important.

Thank you for that. I’ll keep an eye on that one, as I fit one of those descriptions.

[Anonymous User]

Has anyone heard anything about how the recent Biden CoA appointees who weren't previously judges (ex. Jackson-Akiwumi Perez, Lee, Rossman, Sung) are to work for/as bosses?

Also interested in this.

And OSCAR lists Sung as sitting in Seattle? That seems weird since they made a whole big deal out of her being the first Asian CoA judge from Oregon (bit of a strange "first" to highlight, but if it helped get her confirmed then I have no complaints)

[Anonymous User]

Could be a mistake—IIRC when I applied Willett’s OSCAR posting was listed as in New Orleans for some reason.

[Anonymous User]

Notable: from a press release by GMU it appears that Bill Pryor has hired a clerk who was (based on public reporting) fired from Turning Point USA in a racism scandal (among other things, she reportedly sent a text that said “I HATE BLACK PEOPLE”). Seems bad.

https://www.law.gmu.edu/assets/files/ca ... st2021.pdf

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-des ... n-activity

And also wow has GMU been killing it recently in the conservative clerkship market for a school of its tier

yes, it’s very impressive when a trash school places an openly racist clerk with a right wing judge. A triumph of networking. Applicants take note!

I know you're being facetious but it probably has more to do with her being besties with the Thomases.
https://twitter.com/oldmanebro/status/1 ... 32/photo/1

To close the door on the latest chapter of the media/ATL being wrong:

https://www.ajc.com/news/georgia-news/j ... MDHO56FU4/

[Anonymous User]

Notable: from a press release by GMU it appears that Bill Pryor has hired a clerk who was (based on public reporting) fired from Turning Point USA in a racism scandal (among other things, she reportedly sent a text that said “I HATE BLACK PEOPLE”). Seems bad.

https://www.law.gmu.edu/assets/files/ca ... st2021.pdf

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-des ... n-activity

And also wow has GMU been killing it recently in the conservative clerkship market for a school of its tier

yes, it’s very impressive when a trash school places an openly racist clerk with a right wing judge. A triumph of networking. Applicants take note!

I know you're being facetious but it probably has more to do with her being besties with the Thomases.
https://twitter.com/oldmanebro/status/1 ... 32/photo/1

To close the door on the latest chapter of the media/ATL being wrong:

https://www.ajc.com/news/georgia-news/j ... MDHO56FU4/

It really doesn't speak well of our judiciary when someone is hired as a clerk, in large part because she, "lived in their [the Thomases] home for one year."

Also, the article says that the reason the clerk was cleared was because Charlie Kirk and TPUSA claimed that the clerk's racist text messages were faked? They aren't exactly unbiased, and it's not exactly like they don't have very strong motivation to come to her defense regardless of what the reality was. Pinning it on this unnamed "rogue employee" seems dubious at best.

[Anonymous User]

Notable: from a press release by GMU it appears that Bill Pryor has hired a clerk who was (based on public reporting) fired from Turning Point USA in a racism scandal (among other things, she reportedly sent a text that said “I HATE BLACK PEOPLE”). Seems bad.

https://www.law.gmu.edu/assets/files/ca ... st2021.pdf

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-des ... n-activity

And also wow has GMU been killing it recently in the conservative clerkship market for a school of its tier

yes, it’s very impressive when a trash school places an openly racist clerk with a right wing judge. A triumph of networking. Applicants take note!

I know you're being facetious but it probably has more to do with her being besties with the Thomases.
https://twitter.com/oldmanebro/status/1 ... 32/photo/1

To close the door on the latest chapter of the media/ATL being wrong:

https://www.ajc.com/news/georgia-news/j ... MDHO56FU4/

It really doesn't speak well of our judiciary when someone is hired as a clerk, in large part because she, "lived in their [the Thomases] home for one year."

Also, the article says that the reason the clerk was cleared was because Charlie Kirk and TPUSA claimed that the clerk's racist text messages were faked? They aren't exactly unbiased, and it's not exactly like they don't have very strong motivation to come to her defense regardless of what the reality was. Pinning it on this unnamed "rogue employee" seems dubious at best.

So the new claim is that multiple members of the judiciary, a Supreme Court justice, and an organization that has no real need to defend the clerk (after all, the supposed story was that they fired her post-racist texts), all lied under oath, and the 2nd Cir. is incompetent? Just take the L.

[nixy]

Yeah, that just seems kind of a stretch (that everyone is lying about the messages being faked, I mean). It just seems that no matter what she thinks, anyone capable of graduating law school is smart enough these days not put something like that in an email (and it would be weird to write about hating black people that much after living with the Thomases for a year. That’s much more consistent with “some of my best friends are black prople!”).

[Reese1]

Yeah, that just seems kind of a stretch (that everyone is lying about the messages being faked, I mean). It just seems that no matter what she thinks, anyone capable of graduating law school is smart enough these days not put something like that in an email (and it would be weird to write about hating black people that much after living with the Thomases for a year. That’s much more consistent with “some of my best friends are black prople!”).

Furthermore it appears that Pryor presented an email from Kirk that was written before the controversy. So the cover up would have had to come before she was even hired. Unless, the argument is that Pryor faked that letter, which would obviously be absurd.

[Joachim2017]

Notable: from a press release by GMU it appears that Bill Pryor has hired a clerk who was (based on public reporting) fired from Turning Point USA in a racism scandal (among other things, she reportedly sent a text that said “I HATE BLACK PEOPLE”). Seems bad.

https://www.law.gmu.edu/assets/files/ca ... st2021.pdf

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-des ... n-activity

And also wow has GMU been killing it recently in the conservative clerkship market for a school of its tier

yes, it’s very impressive when a trash school places an openly racist clerk with a right wing judge. A triumph of networking. Applicants take note!

I know you're being facetious but it probably has more to do with her being besties with the Thomases.
https://twitter.com/oldmanebro/status/1 ... 32/photo/1

To close the door on the latest chapter of the media/ATL being wrong:

https://www.ajc.com/news/georgia-news/j ... MDHO56FU4/

It really doesn't speak well of our judiciary when someone is hired as a clerk, in large part because she, "lived in their [the Thomases] home for one year."

Also, the article says that the reason the clerk was cleared was because Charlie Kirk and TPUSA claimed that the clerk's racist text messages were faked? They aren't exactly unbiased, and it's not exactly like they don't have very strong motivation to come to her defense regardless of what the reality was. Pinning it on this unnamed "rogue employee" seems dubious at best.

Your attempts to keep pressing this are not only factually inaccurate, they are kind of pathetic. What are you, an ATL columnist posting rough drafts of your blog posts anonymously on these boards? Joe whatever his name is?

[Anonymous User]

Notable: from a press release by GMU it appears that Bill Pryor has hired a clerk who was (based on public reporting) fired from Turning Point USA in a racism scandal (among other things, she reportedly sent a text that said “I HATE BLACK PEOPLE”). Seems bad.

https://www.law.gmu.edu/assets/files/ca ... st2021.pdf

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-des ... n-activity

And also wow has GMU been killing it recently in the conservative clerkship market for a school of its tier

yes, it’s very impressive when a trash school places an openly racist clerk with a right wing judge. A triumph of networking. Applicants take note!

I know you're being facetious but it probably has more to do with her being besties with the Thomases.
https://twitter.com/oldmanebro/status/1 ... 32/photo/1

To close the door on the latest chapter of the media/ATL being wrong:

https://www.ajc.com/news/georgia-news/j ... MDHO56FU4/

It really doesn't speak well of our judiciary when someone is hired as a clerk, in large part because she, "lived in their [the Thomases] home for one year."

Also, the article says that the reason the clerk was cleared was because Charlie Kirk and TPUSA claimed that the clerk's racist text messages were faked? They aren't exactly unbiased, and it's not exactly like they don't have very strong motivation to come to her defense regardless of what the reality was. Pinning it on this unnamed "rogue employee" seems dubious at best.

Your attempts to keep pressing this are not only factually inaccurate, they are kind of pathetic. What are you, an ATL columnist posting rough drafts of your blog posts anonymously on these boards? Joe whatever his name is?

https://abovethelaw.com/2022/01/federal ... isconduct/


Weren’t too far off the actual take

[Anonymous User]

I can't tell anonymous posters apart anymore on this thread, but re: ATL, yeah, it's no surprise anymore unfortunately. Since the original ATL founders (Lat and Mystal) left, it's become a hyper-left liberal rag where failed mediocre lawyers-turned-bloggers shoot off-the-cuff opinions as though they're experts on everything from judicial ethics to economics to crim pro. I didn't mind Mystal, who's obviously a huge leftie, because he's talented and funny and good at what he does whatever your political views; these folks are just *bad*. The site's now basically unreadable other than EOY bonus season.

ETA: accidental anon, this is Joachim

[lavarman84]

Yeah, that just seems kind of a stretch (that everyone is lying about the messages being faked, I mean). It just seems that no matter what she thinks, anyone capable of graduating law school is smart enough these days not put something like that in an email (and it would be weird to write about hating black people that much after living with the Thomases for a year. That’s much more consistent with “some of my best friends are black prople!”).

There are plenty of people who graduated law school who are ignorant enough to say something like that over text. Did she actually do it? I don't know. At any rate, if somebody did fabricate it, shame on them.

[nixy]

Yeah, I missed that it was a text, which is a little different from an e-mail, but it still just seems remarkably unsavvy.

[Anonymous User]

Has anyone heard anything about how the recent Biden CoA appointees who weren't previously judges (ex. Jackson-Akiwumi Perez, Lee, Rossman, Sung) are to work for/as bosses?

Also interested in this.

And OSCAR lists Sung as sitting in Seattle? That seems weird since they made a whole big deal out of her being the first Asian CoA judge from Oregon (bit of a strange "first" to highlight, but if it helped get her confirmed then I have no complaints)

Have heard Perez's clerks are working biglaw-plus hours. YMMV with her first year.

[lavarman84]

Yeah, I missed that it was a text, which is a little different from an e-mail, but it still just seems remarkably unsavvy.

Maybe it's part of growing up in the South, but I've found that white people say some very "unsavvy" shit when they think they're speaking privately and surrounded by likeminded people. That includes educated white people. But again, I'm not saying Clanton did it. At this point, there are only a few people who truly know, and I'm not one of them.

[nixy]

Yeah, I missed that it was a text, which is a little different from an e-mail, but it still just seems remarkably unsavvy.

Maybe it's part of growing up in the South, but I've found that white people say some very "unsavvy" shit when they think they're speaking privately and surrounded by likeminded people. That includes educated white people. But again, I'm not saying Clanton did it. At this point, there are only a few people who truly know, and I'm not one of them.

I don't disagree with this at all, but I would think there would be a slightly bigger gulf between speaking and writing. (Though again, my take is colored a little by misreading it as an e-mail to start with.)

And to be clear, I'm not claiming to know what happened either. I think getting a bunch of people to cover up for the alleged statements is less plausible than one person doing something weird, but I absolutely don't know the truth of any of it.

[Anonymous User]

Have heard Perez's clerks are working biglaw-plus hours. YMMV with her first year.

Knowing her somewhat personally, I have nothing but nice things to say about her as a person. That being said, I can definitely see her expecting long hours from her clerks, given that she basically worked big law hours while at Brennan (on top of other commitments like being an adjunct) and really pushed hard those who worked for her. I'd describe her as lovely and kind, but also intense and demanding.

[Anonymous User]

Have heard Perez's clerks are working biglaw-plus hours. YMMV with her first year.

Knowing her somewhat personally, I have nothing but nice things to say about her as a person. That being said, I can definitely see her expecting long hours from her clerks, given that she basically worked big law hours while at Brennan (on top of other commitments like being an adjunct) and really pushed hard those who worked for her. I'd describe her as lovely and kind, but also intense and demanding.

Perez is great (coming from someone that doesn't agree with her politically at all). I wouldn't read too much into long hours right now though, it's pretty common among new judges, and you should expect growing pains for all of them.

[Anonymous User]

Have heard Perez's clerks are working biglaw-plus hours. YMMV with her first year.

Knowing her somewhat personally, I have nothing but nice things to say about her as a person. That being said, I can definitely see her expecting long hours from her clerks, given that she basically worked big law hours while at Brennan (on top of other commitments like being an adjunct) and really pushed hard those who worked for her. I'd describe her as lovely and kind, but also intense and demanding.

Perez is great (coming from someone that doesn't agree with her politically at all). I wouldn't read too much into long hours right now though, it's pretty common among new judges, and you should expect growing pains for all of them.

Perez aside, does anyone know why hours can vary so wildly between judges on the same district or circuit, even if the judges are doing similar jobs (i.e., comparable numbers of dissents, all circulating memos)? I'm aware of several judges that have similar responsibilities, and some of them work their clerks like dogs, but don't seem to produce significantly more, or better, work. Am I missing something? Is it purely hazing?

[Anonymous User]

I can’t speak to all judges, but what I’ve seen that makes a difference: how much the judge refers to the magistrate (the most over-working judge in my courthouse didn’t use magistrates for basically anything, so was handling, for instance, all the basic discovery stuff that many district court judges pass off); how frequently the court holds hearings vs. ruling on the pleadings (same judge held a hearing on virtually everything ever filed on his docket); what kind of work product the judge expects (same judge had a very unique format for orders that I can recognize at a glance to this day, despite having worked in a different circuit for almost 8 years, and that format required excruciatingly detailed facts sections and expositions on the entire development of the relevant law, which must have taken a lot longer than what I usually wrote); and just general workaholic-ness. If the judge is someone who can come up with all kinds of questions about all kinds of related legal stuff and wants to dive down every last legal rabbit hole and likes to review multiple drafts of everything before letting it go out the door, that adds a lot of time. (WRT to the latter, another point is how often the judge wants to publish their orders).

Of course the overall workload matters (even within the same district, if through luck of the draw, one judge ends up with three complex trials that go back to back, they’ll have more work than a judge who has no trials
during that time), and the judge’s basic organizational skills matter, and their level of experience matters. It becomes a lot easier to dispose of a lot of things fairly quickly when you’ve seen them a zillion times.

(Obviously I’m talking about district, not circuit courts. I think for circuits it tends more to boil down to what I’ve labeled workaholic-ness, although some appeals are obviously more complex than others, and overall caseload, though that will vary more between districts than within them, I think.)

[Anonymous User]

I clerked for a circuit judge who was more on the intense side of things. Some common factors I've seen:

• Newer judges tend to be harder on clerks than longer-serving ones, likely because they're still getting up to speed and haven't seen everything before

• Judges who were previously Biglaw partners tend to be harder, for the obvious reasons

• Judges who like to write separate opinions tend to be harder, because it's simply more work

At least on my circuit, some judges were also just harder-working than others--took on more opinions, wrote more detailed opinions in easy cases, prioritized getting things out more quickly, etc.

It's definitely something to think about when selecting a judge, if you're in the fortunate position of having choices. If you want an easy year, look for senior judges who don't write a lot. If you want a more demanding year, invert that advice.