Best and worst judges to clerk for Forum

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:01 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:10 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:35 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:29 pm
I’m really surprised things like this don’t come up when they vet judges being considered for elevation. Or maybe they just don’t care. See also Pan, who gave her DDC clerks hell.
Why would the Senate care how clerks are treated? They care about results. And plenty of senators and congressional staff mistreat their workers too.
Who's to say it doesn't come up? But the former clerks have two choices: (1) say nothing and slightly increase the prestige of their judge's name on a resume, or (2) say something that might turn into Congressional testimony attached to their own name. WHC and Senate probably aren't checking these forums for unverified anon reports that Judge Merriam screams or that Judge Pan is a bad boss for no specific reason. These reports are useful for students seeking employment, but they won't sink a nomination.
Yeah, I really doubt WHC and the Senate actively inquire into how judges treated their clerks (or how new nominees treated their subordinates), and it's going to take a lot for a former clerk to come forward and bring it up on their own, if they're even paying that close attention to nominations etc. (not trying to open a can of worms, but see Dr. Blasey Ford/Kavanaugh - obv he wasn't her boss/different facts and it was a long time ago, but I doubt that encourages people to report). I know judicial temperament and courtroom deportment come up in evaluating nominees, but they tend to measure the judge's treatment of litigants, not staff, and a judge who abuses their staff can still run a great courtroom. And even then, I'm not sure bad reviews in those categories ever sink a nominee.

Plus (leaving aside egregious examples like Kozinski), most judges who are shitty bosses aren't doing anything illegal, and even where you have sexism/racism/other illegalities at play, proving that is incredibly hard, especially in such a small setting as chambers (few witnesses, everyone's job depends on the judge). There's a case of a clerk (post-Kosinski) who brought a complaint because she took maternity leave during the clerkship and her judge subsequently fired her, costing her the job she had lined up after the clerkship. The judge and permanent clerk came back with all kinds of examples of her incompetence. I have no idea which side is in the right, but it's hugely messy and now that's going to be out there for every potential employer to see. (I think the clerk sued, not the judge but the judicial complaint people, and lost, but I might be misremembering some of that.)

Don't get me wrong, it would be great if the Senate cared if the judges they elevate are crappy people, but as already suggested, that's definitely not what they're selecting for. The only extent to which they'd potentially care is if the problem is bad enough to result in a lawsuit/impeachment/some other kind of political consequence.

I don't think it helps, either, that clerkships are temporary positions that are so sought after - while I agree that these things don't justify judge abusing you for a year (which is a big deal and can have lasting negative consequences), no one has to take a clerkship, most clerks still probably benefit from having had the job, and there's a built-in end date. It's hard to build up reforms given those circumstances. (Not saying this is how the world should work! But I'm pessimistic about the potential for change. I agree that applicants need more access to this kind of information, though.)

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 10, 2023 9:44 pm

This thread is such an interesting read. At my job before law school I was totally mistreated and spoken to very disrespectfully. I put up with it as a broke 0L since I knew I was leaving when school started anyway. It still stings thinking about it. I made a promise to myself that I would never allow myself to be spoken to that way in the workplace again, no matter what, and if I ever was, I would quit when it happened. No job is worth being demeaned.

Now I am applying to clerkships and reading about these judges like Merriam and Pan being disrespectful to their clerks. I'm wondering if I would really keep my promise if I was in that situation. Walking away from a clerkship on CADC or CA2 would be harder by orders of magnitude than walking away from my shitty little job as a 22-year-old. That's an opportunity I would have spent years clawing my way up the system to get.

Here's hoping that kind of behavior isn't too common. I will say, I was afraid of this happening in biglaw because I read stories about partners throwing stuff, yelling, insulting, etc. Maybe I just landed at a "nice" firm, or haven't seen the bad stuff yet, but biglaw has not been like that at all so far. The firm genuinely seems not to put up with it. I think it is in part a function of cultural changes since the 1980s and 90s. That kind of thing has just become more unacceptable in the workplace.

But even so, a tenured judge in an uber-prestigious circuit, in the private and cloistered environment of chambers, has a lot more unaccountable power over their clerks than, say, a partner at a 1000-person firm, which has to recruit at OCIs across the country every year and has a giant HR department, has over associates. You just never know.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jun 12, 2023 4:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:39 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:27 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:12 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Dec 20, 2022 5:09 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:21 am
Judge Merriam in the 2nd circuit screams loudly and frequently at clerks.
This does not surprise me one bit.
Wondering if anyone else has heard this about her? Surprised to see it crop up only now that she's a CJ, but not from when she was a MJ.
Yes, I have been warned about her from multiple sources.
oooof, good to know!
Multiple people have also strongly cautioned me against applying to Merriam. Even knowing full well what CA2 would do for my career. Just straight up said do not apply.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jun 12, 2023 5:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2023 4:55 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:39 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:27 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:12 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Dec 20, 2022 5:09 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:21 am
Judge Merriam in the 2nd circuit screams loudly and frequently at clerks.
This does not surprise me one bit.
Wondering if anyone else has heard this about her? Surprised to see it crop up only now that she's a CJ, but not from when she was a MJ.
Yes, I have been warned about her from multiple sources.
oooof, good to know!
Multiple people have also strongly cautioned me against applying to Merriam. Even knowing full well what CA2 would do for my career. Just straight up said do not apply.
Interviewed with her and her career clerk and was told in no uncertain terms that she’s extremely demanding (though she seemed quite nice during the interview)

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jun 12, 2023 5:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2023 5:44 pm

Interviewed with her and her career clerk and was told in no uncertain terms that she’s extremely demanding (though she seemed quite nice during the interview)
Demanding doesn't scare me. Unnecessarily berating and belittling does. I always wonder when it's women judges if it's a symptom of misogyny - but there's enough people who have heard bad things about Merriam that it seems like it's beyond that for sure.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jun 12, 2023 6:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2023 5:50 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2023 5:44 pm

Interviewed with her and her career clerk and was told in no uncertain terms that she’s extremely demanding (though she seemed quite nice during the interview)
Demanding doesn't scare me. Unnecessarily berating and belittling does. I always wonder when it's women judges if it's a symptom of misogyny - but there's enough people who have heard bad things about Merriam that it seems like it's beyond that for sure.
I meant demanding in the sense that ur first mistake will be tolerated but the rest will result in a “stern” discussion

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jun 12, 2023 8:07 pm

It’s really strange when Second and DC Circuit judges are not good to their clerks because they don’t actually have much work to do. These judges are often creating busywork, not just being rude.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jun 13, 2023 7:06 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2023 5:44 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2023 4:55 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:39 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:27 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:12 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Dec 20, 2022 5:09 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:21 am
Judge Merriam in the 2nd circuit screams loudly and frequently at clerks.
This does not surprise me one bit.
Wondering if anyone else has heard this about her? Surprised to see it crop up only now that she's a CJ, but not from when she was a MJ.
Yes, I have been warned about her from multiple sources.
oooof, good to know!
Multiple people have also strongly cautioned me against applying to Merriam. Even knowing full well what CA2 would do for my career. Just straight up said do not apply.
Interviewed with her and her career clerk and was told in no uncertain terms that she’s extremely demanding (though she seemed quite nice during the interview)
Same anon you replied to. The way it was put to me, it seems like people in the know would have questioned my judgment for clerking with her.

Anonymous User
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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 14, 2023 12:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jun 13, 2023 7:06 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2023 5:44 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2023 4:55 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:39 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:27 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:12 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Dec 20, 2022 5:09 pm


This does not surprise me one bit.
Wondering if anyone else has heard this about her? Surprised to see it crop up only now that she's a CJ, but not from when she was a MJ.
Yes, I have been warned about her from multiple sources.
oooof, good to know!
Multiple people have also strongly cautioned me against applying to Merriam. Even knowing full well what CA2 would do for my career. Just straight up said do not apply.
Interviewed with her and her career clerk and was told in no uncertain terms that she’s extremely demanding (though she seemed quite nice during the interview)
Same anon you replied to. The way it was put to me, it seems like people in the know would have questioned my judgment for clerking with her.
Yeah, it's just not worth it. You will be able to get another solid clerkship.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jun 23, 2023 9:10 am

Has anyone heard how Natasha Merle (EDNY) is supposed to be?

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jun 23, 2023 9:12 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2023 9:10 am
Has anyone heard how Natasha Merle (EDNY) is supposed to be?
She was confirmed two days ago. How could anyone meaningfully know how working as her clerk would be, even if they worked with her?

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jun 23, 2023 9:15 am

People may have worked with her in her previous positions or know people who have.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jun 23, 2023 11:15 am

Anyone know how to apply to Merle or the other new EDNY judges?

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jun 23, 2023 2:03 pm

Note that Nathan and Oetken now hire together, just like Srinivasan and Boasberg or Rakoff and Katzmann

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jun 23, 2023 2:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2023 2:03 pm
Note that Nathan and Oetken now hire together, just like Srinivasan and Boasberg or Rakoff and Katzmann
Everyone together? Also my understanding was Sri and Boasberg do around two of the four spots. I know quite a few Boasberg clerks—recent and upcoming—that are not clerking for Sri and vice versa.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jun 23, 2023 4:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2023 2:26 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2023 2:03 pm
Note that Nathan and Oetken now hire together, just like Srinivasan and Boasberg or Rakoff and Katzmann
Everyone together? Also my understanding was Sri and Boasberg do around two of the four spots. I know quite a few Boasberg clerks—recent and upcoming—that are not clerking for Sri and vice versa.
News to me that they do any of it together, there's negligible overlap between Sri/Boasberg clerks at my school, which sends 1-2 to each per year

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jun 23, 2023 5:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2023 4:39 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2023 2:26 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2023 2:03 pm
Note that Nathan and Oetken now hire together, just like Srinivasan and Boasberg or Rakoff and Katzmann
Everyone together? Also my understanding was Sri and Boasberg do around two of the four spots. I know quite a few Boasberg clerks—recent and upcoming—that are not clerking for Sri and vice versa.
News to me that they do any of it together, there's negligible overlap between Sri/Boasberg clerks at my school, which sends 1-2 to each per year
Not for all spots but they definitely do some together. It may be a recent thing.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jun 23, 2023 7:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2023 5:09 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2023 4:39 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2023 2:26 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2023 2:03 pm
Note that Nathan and Oetken now hire together, just like Srinivasan and Boasberg or Rakoff and Katzmann
Everyone together? Also my understanding was Sri and Boasberg do around two of the four spots. I know quite a few Boasberg clerks—recent and upcoming—that are not clerking for Sri and vice versa.
News to me that they do any of it together, there's negligible overlap between Sri/Boasberg clerks at my school, which sends 1-2 to each per year
Not for all spots but they definitely do some together. It may be a recent thing.
Is that a conscious effort on their part where they're actively comparing candidates together? Or is it more organic and just happens by chance because they get the same top candidates

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 24, 2023 7:47 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2023 7:10 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2023 5:09 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2023 4:39 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2023 2:26 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 23, 2023 2:03 pm
Note that Nathan and Oetken now hire together, just like Srinivasan and Boasberg or Rakoff and Katzmann
Everyone together? Also my understanding was Sri and Boasberg do around two of the four spots. I know quite a few Boasberg clerks—recent and upcoming—that are not clerking for Sri and vice versa.
News to me that they do any of it together, there's negligible overlap between Sri/Boasberg clerks at my school, which sends 1-2 to each per year
Not for all spots but they definitely do some together. It may be a recent thing.
Is that a conscious effort on their part where they're actively comparing candidates together? Or is it more organic and just happens by chance because they get the same top candidates
It is a conscious effort by one of those two judges.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 24, 2023 2:41 pm

No pair of judges has had anything quite as formal as Rakoff/Katzmann, with (I believe) close to 100% of Rakoff clerks going to Katzmann. What Boasberg/Sri do is more common, with heavy overlap and referrals, but independent hiring processes. Thapar did this with Sutton and Kethledge while he was on E.D. Ky., as one other example.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 24, 2023 3:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2023 2:41 pm
No pair of judges has had anything quite as formal as Rakoff/Katzmann, with (I believe) close to 100% of Rakoff clerks going to Katzmann. What Boasberg/Sri do is more common, with heavy overlap and referrals, but independent hiring processes. Thapar did this with Sutton and Kethledge while he was on E.D. Ky., as one other example.
Totally random prediction, but I can imagine Thapar, Sutton or Kethledge repeating this sort of dynamic with Beaton (EDKY)

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 24, 2023 4:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2023 3:19 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2023 2:41 pm
No pair of judges has had anything quite as formal as Rakoff/Katzmann, with (I believe) close to 100% of Rakoff clerks going to Katzmann. What Boasberg/Sri do is more common, with heavy overlap and referrals, but independent hiring processes. Thapar did this with Sutton and Kethledge while he was on E.D. Ky., as one other example.
Totally random prediction, but I can imagine Thapar, Sutton or Kethledge repeating this sort of dynamic with Beaton (EDKY)
Possibly. Many Beaton clerks have already clerked for a COA or have one lined up, though. It might take a bit before a similar process gets rolling.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 24, 2023 4:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2023 4:08 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2023 3:19 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2023 2:41 pm
No pair of judges has had anything quite as formal as Rakoff/Katzmann, with (I believe) close to 100% of Rakoff clerks going to Katzmann. What Boasberg/Sri do is more common, with heavy overlap and referrals, but independent hiring processes. Thapar did this with Sutton and Kethledge while he was on E.D. Ky., as one other example.
Totally random prediction, but I can imagine Thapar, Sutton or Kethledge repeating this sort of dynamic with Beaton (EDKY)
Possibly. Many Beaton clerks have already clerked for a COA or have one lined up, though. It might take a bit before a similar process gets rolling.
Yeah, that's how it seems to be at my school. Do you have any idea what Beaton's vibe is? It does seem like he is selecting for people who already have a COA clerkship, which is a bit unusual for a district court judge

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 24, 2023 8:27 pm

My understanding is that Nathan and Oetken had a formal joint process this year, not an informal “I happen to hire a lot of my buddy’s clerks and vice versa” arrangement. The latter is more common.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 24, 2023 8:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2023 4:42 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2023 4:08 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2023 3:19 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jun 24, 2023 2:41 pm
No pair of judges has had anything quite as formal as Rakoff/Katzmann, with (I believe) close to 100% of Rakoff clerks going to Katzmann. What Boasberg/Sri do is more common, with heavy overlap and referrals, but independent hiring processes. Thapar did this with Sutton and Kethledge while he was on E.D. Ky., as one other example.
Totally random prediction, but I can imagine Thapar, Sutton or Kethledge repeating this sort of dynamic with Beaton (EDKY)
Possibly. Many Beaton clerks have already clerked for a COA or have one lined up, though. It might take a bit before a similar process gets rolling.
Yeah, that's how it seems to be at my school. Do you have any idea what Beaton's vibe is? It does seem like he is selecting for people who already have a COA clerkship, which is a bit unusual for a district court judge
It’s common for the more selective Fed Soc district judges—they don’t directly compete with the appellate judges so they often hire later, after the appellate hiring is complete. E.g. Friedrich is on-plan. Whereas non-Fed-Soc district judges hiring on the Plan are hiring people who are simultaneously applying for appellate clerkships.

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