Best and worst judges to clerk for Forum

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:40 am

I didn’t see the tweet, but yeah the initials of the filer are meaningless, in our chambers the filing itself was typically done by someone in the clerk of court’s office or the courtroom deputy. Even if a law clerk did it, it doesn’t mean it’s the clerk on the case, it could easily be just whoever was aroubd.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:43 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:23 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:43 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 5:25 pm
This isn’t really surprising, but basically nobody in the conservative legal world on Volokh etc. is willing to defend the Mizelle ruling on OSHA, which is pretty telling. The basic mistakes on the corpus linguistics analysis are frankly embarrassing, for example (“don’t just look at frequency” is like Tom Lee’s First Commandment), as are the errors Sam Bray pointed out in the remedy section, even aside from the statutory interpretation that’s getting most of the heat.
I suppose it doesn’t really matter, but the endless (Judge, J.) cites to minor Fed Soc luminaries also strongly made it seem like the work of an overeager clerk, not a federal judge. The sort of cringey faux pas that some maturity from practice might have cured.
Of all the things to criticize in an opinion potentially filled with errors, this is the stupidest. She cites judges in all her opinions:

https://twitter.com/johnkerkhoff/status ... tbhqBngaQQ
Those examples are of district judges from Florida, which she seemingly flags universally, which is an unusual but not unheard of practice. Some judges prefer to do that because in the Bluebook, district court judges are specified when citing unpublished opinions (in the case number), and it’s slightly weird to specify the author for unpublished but not published opinions.

Doing it for circuit courts is more unusual, and the strong norm in the federal judiciary is to do basically none except for Hand, Friendly, Posner, and later-elevated SCOTUS justices. And since she doesn’t do it on all circuit cites she’s picking and choosing based on which judges she likes, which is especially frowned upon.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:56 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:40 am
I didn’t see the tweet, but yeah the initials of the filer are meaningless, in our chambers the filing itself was typically done by someone in the clerk of court’s office or the courtroom deputy. Even if a law clerk did it, it doesn’t mean it’s the clerk on the case, it could easily be just whoever was aroubd.
That's what I thought, too. Especially in a chambers without a JA, one clerk is sometimes given the ECF duties along with other administrative responsibilities.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Apr 20, 2022 12:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:26 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:22 am
I suppose it doesn’t really matter, but the endless (Judge, J.) cites to minor Fed Soc luminaries also strongly made it seem like the work of an overeager clerk, not a federal judge. The sort of cringey faux pas that some maturity from practice might have cured.
Speaking of which: I was surprised to see some Twitter commentary on the clerk who likely authored the opinion, based on the initials accompanying the ECF entry. While this is a new sleuthing method (to me, anyway), it's long been possible to connect opinions with their likely author through PDF metadata. This never gets discussed, and I assumed it was because of some desire to avoid peeking behind the curtain. Apparently that instinct no longer holds.

(For the clerks out there: clear PDF metadata before posting opinions and orders. Or at the very least, ensure that metadata never makes it to your PDFs in the first place by setting up Adobe properly etc. Last thing you want is some Twitter rando learning your name.)
Uploading a pdf is not metadata, it’s a clerical task which someone more competent and less hackish than a DemandJustice writer thats never worked for a judge would have known immediately.
Given that he has a habit of “outing” clerks he doesn’t like, my assumption is that the clerk is the only person he could readily find information about on the internet and backfilled a justification to try and harass him.

Admittedly, the only interesting information he posted was that the guy graduated top of his class, which he’ll presumably ignore next time he goes on a rant about how FedSoc students can walk into a SCOTUS clerkship. Also cuts against the many posters here on this very thread that continuously claim that judges they don’t like struggle to find clerks, which has never been true.
It is true that less-respected judges often get less-qualified clerks, but obviously they still get people more than qualified to be federal clerks. E.g. Mizelle generally isn’t hiring the level of people that the top Fed Soc DJs are rn from anything I’ve heard (this guy who’s going to Sutton aside). Part of that’s location, but a large part is that at least for now she raises eyebrows in a way that other judges don’t, and this won’t help. And the general principle applies even to entirely non-political stuff—judges known to be terrible to work for, or who the local bar thinks are morons, get weaker apps because very competitive applicants can be picky.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:09 pm

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Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:09 pm
Looking at the backgrounds for the two clerks I could find on LinkedIn and I'm honestly incredulous. I guess it makes sense that given Mizelle's weak educational pedigree she wouldn't care to select for that in her clerks, but Christian University no one has ever heard of --> NDLS, and University of Nebraska, Omaha (!) --> Pepperdine Law (!)...my god. I know this is maybe really shitty of me but yes, undergraduate universities below state flagships are absolutely a red flag to me. Like these people didn't actually go to a competitive/real college, even setting aside the law school question. I am very aware that a "prestigious" undergrad is just not feasible for many people because of reasons outside of their control, but I am also aware from personal experience that all bright and hardworking high school students will absolutely have affordable options at state flagships like Oklahoma, Alabama, etc. I would never, ever look down on someone for going to schools like those, but beyond that? It honestly makes me hard to take you seriously. Guess it just reinforces how incredibly idiosyncratic clerkship hiring is.
Eh she's a DC judge in FL, what did you expect to see? What are the backgrounds of her colleagues' clerks? Also she didn't go to a T14 so might have a soft spot for lower ranked schools.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:30 pm

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Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:09 pm
Looking at the backgrounds for the two clerks I could find on LinkedIn and I'm honestly incredulous. I guess it makes sense that given Mizelle's weak educational pedigree she wouldn't care to select for that in her clerks, but Christian University no one has ever heard of --> NDLS, and University of Nebraska, Omaha (!) --> Pepperdine Law (!)...my god. I know this is maybe really shitty of me but yes, undergraduate universities below state flagships are absolutely a red flag to me. Like these people didn't actually go to a competitive/real college, even setting aside the law school question. I am very aware that a "prestigious" undergrad is just not feasible for many people because of reasons outside of their control, but I am also aware from personal experience that all bright and hardworking high school students will absolutely have affordable options at state flagships like Oklahoma, Alabama, etc. I would never, ever look down on someone for going to schools like those, but beyond that? It honestly makes me hard to take you seriously. Guess it just reinforces how incredibly idiosyncratic clerkship hiring is.
Yes, that is very shitty of you. The idea that all serious students go to UNL over UNO or Creighton, or go to Iowa over Northern Iowa or Luther, or go to OSU over Ohio or Cedarville, is bizarre. That’s just not how people think outside of very elite circles—I went to an Ivy, but I had high school peers with similar grades and scores who chose to go to Truman State or St. Olaf (and later ended up at ultra-elite grad schools). Many people prefer a smaller or more religious college, or to be closer to home, or to go to school on a large merit scholarship, or to go where their family has traditionally gone. There isn’t a huge gulf in student quality between UNL (average ACT: 25) and UNO (average ACT: 23) just because the former has the football team you’ve heard of.

And if you’re #1 at NDLS, you’re certainly smart enough to do well anywhere, so who cares about undergrad.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:09 pm
I know this is maybe really shitty of me but yes, undergraduate universities below state flagships are absolutely a red flag to me. Like these people didn't actually go to a competitive/real college, even setting aside the law school question. I am very aware that a "prestigious" undergrad is just not feasible for many people because of reasons outside of their control, but I am also aware from personal experience that all bright and hardworking high school students will absolutely have affordable options at state flagships like Oklahoma, Alabama, etc. I would never, ever look down on someone for going to schools like those, but beyond that? It honestly makes me hard to take you seriously. Guess it just reinforces how incredibly idiosyncratic clerkship hiring is.
Wild take. Why would whether someone was "hardworking" in high school have any impact whatsoever on their qualifications to clerk many years later? Maybe we should inquire as to how good they were at coloring in kindergarten as well?

In the real world, I clerked for a semi-feeder on CA2/9/DC, and my judge hired plenty of people who went to "bad" undergrad schools. So far as I can tell, they were all excellent clerks. (And lest this seem personal, my undergrad and law degrees are both from Ivy League schools.)

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:50 pm

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Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:33 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:09 pm
Looking at the backgrounds for the two clerks I could find on LinkedIn and I'm honestly incredulous. I guess it makes sense that given Mizelle's weak educational pedigree she wouldn't care to select for that in her clerks, but Christian University no one has ever heard of --> NDLS, and University of Nebraska, Omaha (!) --> Pepperdine Law (!)...my god. I know this is maybe really shitty of me but yes, undergraduate universities below state flagships are absolutely a red flag to me. Like these people didn't actually go to a competitive/real college, even setting aside the law school question. I am very aware that a "prestigious" undergrad is just not feasible for many people because of reasons outside of their control, but I am also aware from personal experience that all bright and hardworking high school students will absolutely have affordable options at state flagships like Oklahoma, Alabama, etc. I would never, ever look down on someone for going to schools like those, but beyond that? It honestly makes me hard to take you seriously. Guess it just reinforces how incredibly idiosyncratic clerkship hiring is.
The idea that all serious students go to UNL over UNO or Creighton, or go to Iowa over Northern Iowa or Luther, or go to OSU over Ohio or Cedarville, is bizarre. That’s just not how people think in the Midwest—where I grew up many sophisticated people think Drake is better than Iowa just because it’s small and private. And if you’re #1 at NDLS, you’re certainly smart enough to do well anywhere, so who cares about undergrad.
I think Mizelle is a Fed Soc hack and her opinion was trash, but judging her based on where her clerks went to undergrad might be the most ridiculous thing I've seen on this site in a long time. As someone who went to a state flagship school for undergrad, it's not all that - there are plenty of folks who have gone to small private colleges and then to fancy law schools/MBAs/med schools. Besides, Mizelle definitely seems like the type to value ideological fit over school pedigree (especially undergrad). If someone's did well at NDLS or even (*gasp*) Pepperdine, who cares where they went to college - despite what some on this forum seem to think, clerking is hardly some insanely difficult job that only HYS grads can do.

Also, let's be honest here - this was a clear play by Mizelle to set herself up for elevation to the 11th when the next Republican administration comes around. She was just signalling that she'll find a way to reach the conservative result come hell or high water, and there's no need to take her "legal analysis" more seriously than that. The Biden admin doesn't seem to have the political will to keep pushing for a mask mandate at this point so I wonder if they'll even appeal, but if they do, odds are that the hard-right 11th Circuit will affirm (and SCOTUS certainly will - though I wonder if they would shore up her reasoning).

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:58 pm

Well, I had peers who barely graduated who went to UNI, but also peers with 4.0s who did. Public schools are large. I value my fancy education, but I know it’s abnormal, and I also know that neither the classes in Iowa City nor those in Cedar Falls are particularly Socratic, so I don’t think there’s an advantage to the flagship in that regard.

I also think even on your own terms, quality of undergrad ed does not correlate much with prestige—I’m certain you can get a better-rounded liberal arts education studying theology at Creighton than you can in certain departments of my undergrad institution with indifferent profs and huge lectures taught by TAs.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:30 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:23 pm

Eh she's a DC judge in FL, what did you expect to see? What are the backgrounds of her colleagues' clerks? Also she didn't go to a T14 so might have a soft spot for lower ranked schools.
Lol, I mean I personally know someone who interviewed with her who had a far, far more impressive pedigree (elite UG, very impressive work experience, T14) and didn't get the job, so I know far more "conventionally" competitive applicants are interested in DC judges in FL. I also interviewed (not with her) for DC judges in FL with just outside top 10% grades at a t14 and didn't get the gig, so, like I said "competitive" people want these jobs. This isn't so much of bitterness (but maybe a little!), as I wound up with something that is a better fit, as much as incredulity at who actually gets these positions given how much people hype up the competitiveness of these district jobs.
If she's interviewing ppl with better resume and rejecting them, maybe this whole line of attack is off base?

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:01 pm

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Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:50 pm

And idk, I guess it's really hard to express this in a way that doesn't come across as mean spirited which isn't really how I want to be. I'm just someone who took the liberal arts education he got in college very seriously as a means of developing one's mind and soul (eg discussing which one of the Euthyphro horns you would like to be gored on with a dozen classmates while a septuagenarian educated at Oxbridge gently guides the discussion) and so I look askance at places where I'm not sure the emphasis is on developing the mind like that, because I know many places aren't like that.
Might as well shut down this thread, we're never going to find a more ridiculous statement.

PS: The only thing I learned at my Ivy is how absurdly rich and out of touch most of my classmates were. Certainly didn't have a single discussion about whatever the Euthyphro horns are.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:06 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:50 pm

And idk, I guess it's really hard to express this in a way that doesn't come across as mean spirited which isn't really how I want to be. I'm just someone who took the liberal arts education he got in college very seriously as a means of developing one's mind and soul (eg discussing which one of the Euthyphro horns you would like to be gored on with a dozen classmates while a septuagenarian educated at Oxbridge gently guides the discussion) and so I look askance at places where I'm not sure the emphasis is on developing the mind like that, because I know many places aren't like that.
Might as well shut down this thread, we're never going to find a more ridiculous statement.

PS: The only thing I learned at my Ivy is how absurdly rich and out of touch most of my classmates were. Certainly didn't have a single discussion about whatever the Euthyphro horns are.

I mean, if that's the only thing you learned at your Ivy, that's on you. Plenty of people at all the Ivies who aren't rich, out of touch, or cruising or partying. You're an adult by then, it's on you to make the most of the experience rather than falling back on lazy stereotypes. If you don't want to, fine, that's on you too. Sounds like you wasted the experience, which is too bad, but hey, sometimes ignorance is bliss right?

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:00 pm

Septuagenarian, huh. Now there's a word I haven't seen in a while. Just means someone in their 70s, right? Is that even that old these day? Everyone in their 70s should teach, tbh.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by nixy » Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:08 pm

Damn what happened to this thread in the last like 3 hours. The UG snobbery is hysterical, even worse than law school snobbery.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by nixy » Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 12:15 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:26 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:22 am
I suppose it doesn’t really matter, but the endless (Judge, J.) cites to minor Fed Soc luminaries also strongly made it seem like the work of an overeager clerk, not a federal judge. The sort of cringey faux pas that some maturity from practice might have cured.
Speaking of which: I was surprised to see some Twitter commentary on the clerk who likely authored the opinion, based on the initials accompanying the ECF entry. While this is a new sleuthing method (to me, anyway), it's long been possible to connect opinions with their likely author through PDF metadata. This never gets discussed, and I assumed it was because of some desire to avoid peeking behind the curtain. Apparently that instinct no longer holds.

(For the clerks out there: clear PDF metadata before posting opinions and orders. Or at the very least, ensure that metadata never makes it to your PDFs in the first place by setting up Adobe properly etc. Last thing you want is some Twitter rando learning your name.)
Uploading a pdf is not metadata, it’s a clerical task which someone more competent and less hackish than a DemandJustice writer thats never worked for a judge would have known immediately.
Given that he has a habit of “outing” clerks he doesn’t like, my assumption is that the clerk is the only person he could readily find information about on the internet and backfilled a justification to try and harass him.

Admittedly, the only interesting information he posted was that the guy graduated top of his class, which he’ll presumably ignore next time he goes on a rant about how FedSoc students can walk into a SCOTUS clerkship. Also cuts against the many posters here on this very thread that continuously claim that judges they don’t like struggle to find clerks, which has never been true.
It is true that less-respected judges often get less-qualified clerks, but obviously they still get people more than qualified to be federal clerks. E.g. Mizelle generally isn’t hiring the level of people that the top Fed Soc DJs are rn from anything I’ve heard (this guy who’s going to Sutton aside). Part of that’s location, but a large part is that at least for now she raises eyebrows in a way that other judges don’t, and this won’t help. And the general principle applies even to entirely non-political stuff—judges known to be terrible to work for, or who the local bar thinks are morons, get weaker apps because very competitive applicants can be picky.
Yeah, I agree with all this. And aside from location and eyebrow-raisingness of appointment (and now this opinion), there’s also the fact that she’s probably purposefully selecting against a certain set of traditionally elite educational institutions. There’s a whole cadre of people in the world who don’t like YHS etc for being snobby, pretentious, elitist, etc (this obviously correlates with political views but I think it’s its own thing as well).

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Sarkhan » Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:16 pm

This has gotten ridiculous like three different kinds of ways. Can we get back to something approaching substantive discussion?

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:06 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:50 pm

And idk, I guess it's really hard to express this in a way that doesn't come across as mean spirited which isn't really how I want to be. I'm just someone who took the liberal arts education he got in college very seriously as a means of developing one's mind and soul (eg discussing which one of the Euthyphro horns you would like to be gored on with a dozen classmates while a septuagenarian educated at Oxbridge gently guides the discussion) and so I look askance at places where I'm not sure the emphasis is on developing the mind like that, because I know many places aren't like that.
Might as well shut down this thread, we're never going to find a more ridiculous statement.

PS: The only thing I learned at my Ivy is how absurdly rich and out of touch most of my classmates were. Certainly didn't have a single discussion about whatever the Euthyphro horns are.
As someone who had to sit through a class like that, I would just count your blessings that you never lost hours of your life to something so useless. The OP really isn't helping combat the (not unreasonable) perception of liberal arts degrees as a waste of time and money. There are ways to "develop one's mind and soul" that don't cost thousands (if not tens or hundreds of thousands) of dollars or force a person to go to get another degree to be employable.

But to get back on topic, any intel on how Stephanie Davis on E.D. Mich. (and probably soon 6th Cir.) is as a boss? Or the new Biden appointees in the Michigan district courts (Beckering & Kumar)?

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:00 pm

shoutout to everyone who quoted that ridiculous poster, sorry your attempt to remove the dumbest messages I've ever read on here didn't work

out of all of the possible reasons to rip them for, you somehow went with the weakest one

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by nixy » Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:43 pm

Reading them again I feel like Euthyphro horns tipped the hand it was a troll, but given the posts are gone, who really knows.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:06 pm

Any under-the-radar SDNY/EDNY judges that have a reputation of being great to clerk for?

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Apr 21, 2022 10:03 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:06 pm
Any under-the-radar SDNY/EDNY judges that have a reputation of being great to clerk for?
I don't think it's possible to be under the radar in those districts, but Karas probably qualifies because he's in White Plains, and he's wonderful.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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