Best and worst judges to clerk for Forum

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:54 pm

I do think a Van Dyke clerkship might be the only one in the country right now that would be a negative to have on your resume, at least for many hiring partners and judges, even conservative ones. It's not even about the ideology. He's just an asshole, and a weird one at that. There is the infamous orientation video, and the various mean, odd, and snarky things he does in his writings. These indicate real personality defects. They are so clearly a waste of time and counterproductive, turning off potential allies. I would assume anyone he hired has a much higher than normal chance of being an asshole, because they applied and were selected by him, and then influenced by him, and I would be very wary of working with them.

Thus, this is similar to Real, where the issue was not ideology but laziness, arbitrariness, and corruption. Anyone who he picked and got along with was suspect.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:50 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:52 pm
Tbh this is one of the few VanDyke gimmicks that's at least actually pretty funny, especially the footnotes to the concurrence. A bit Kozinskiesque. Though it won't help his reputation.
It's objectively hilarious, and correct on the merits, but not appropriate. He should have saved it for a law review piece.

That being said, the ATL level wishcasting that VanDyke blasting off against his fellow judges will have some sort of negative repercussion for his clerks is pretty silly. He's also getting plenty of apps (as far I know know, he prefers to hire locals with ties to either Montana or Nevada), his brother has a SCOTUS clerkship, and he's continually getting invited to the most notable panels. He's doing fine.
It’s not his blasting off per se, it’s his intemperateness. Like I said, conservative judges find him embarrassing too. I don’t see how his brother is relevant. Or whether he’s invited to panels, quite frankly. Sometimes people get invited to panels because people find them entertaining even if they don’t garner respect. Does he prefer to hire those law students, or does he just not get as many applications as his colleagues?

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:50 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:52 pm
Tbh this is one of the few VanDyke gimmicks that's at least actually pretty funny, especially the footnotes to the concurrence. A bit Kozinskiesque. Though it won't help his reputation.
It's objectively hilarious, and correct on the merits, but not appropriate. He should have saved it for a law review piece.

That being said, the ATL level wishcasting that VanDyke blasting off against his fellow judges will have some sort of negative repercussion for his clerks is pretty silly. He's also getting plenty of apps (as far I know know, he prefers to hire locals with ties to either Montana or Nevada), his brother has a SCOTUS clerkship, and he's continually getting invited to the most notable panels. He's doing fine.
On that topic, is he hiring now? I haven't seen him on my school's list.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:19 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:50 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:52 pm
Tbh this is one of the few VanDyke gimmicks that's at least actually pretty funny, especially the footnotes to the concurrence. A bit Kozinskiesque. Though it won't help his reputation.
It's objectively hilarious, and correct on the merits, but not appropriate. He should have saved it for a law review piece.

That being said, the ATL level wishcasting that VanDyke blasting off against his fellow judges will have some sort of negative repercussion for his clerks is pretty silly. He's also getting plenty of apps (as far I know know, he prefers to hire locals with ties to either Montana or Nevada), his brother has a SCOTUS clerkship, and he's continually getting invited to the most notable panels. He's doing fine.
It’s not his blasting off per se, it’s his intemperateness. Like I said, conservative judges find him embarrassing too. I don’t see how his brother is relevant. Or whether he’s invited to panels, quite frankly. Sometimes people get invited to panels because people find them entertaining even if they don’t garner respect. Does he prefer to hire those law students, or does he just not get as many applications as his colleagues?
And all are signs are people who are important (i.e., not random people on TLS forum/Twitter), don't really have an issue, and in fact, I suspect they encourage his war with the Ninth.

I strongly suspect you need a FedSoc connect to get your app pulled (to the above poster), he's not on Plan.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:29 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:19 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:50 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:52 pm
Tbh this is one of the few VanDyke gimmicks that's at least actually pretty funny, especially the footnotes to the concurrence. A bit Kozinskiesque. Though it won't help his reputation.
It's objectively hilarious, and correct on the merits, but not appropriate. He should have saved it for a law review piece.

That being said, the ATL level wishcasting that VanDyke blasting off against his fellow judges will have some sort of negative repercussion for his clerks is pretty silly. He's also getting plenty of apps (as far I know know, he prefers to hire locals with ties to either Montana or Nevada), his brother has a SCOTUS clerkship, and he's continually getting invited to the most notable panels. He's doing fine.
It’s not his blasting off per se, it’s his intemperateness. Like I said, conservative judges find him embarrassing too. I don’t see how his brother is relevant. Or whether he’s invited to panels, quite frankly. Sometimes people get invited to panels because people find them entertaining even if they don’t garner respect. Does he prefer to hire those law students, or does he just not get as many applications as his colleagues?
And all are signs are people who are important (i.e., not random people on TLS forum/Twitter), don't really have an issue, and in fact, I suspect they encourage his war with the Ninth.

I strongly suspect you need a FedSoc connect to get your app pulled (to the above poster), he's not on Plan.
Conservative judges, who I know *for a fact* find Van Dyke embarrassing, are not random people on Twitter. And every federal judge, respected or not, gets plenty of applications just by virtue of being a federal judge. The question is a relative one, not an absolute one.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:35 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:29 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:19 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:50 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:52 pm
Tbh this is one of the few VanDyke gimmicks that's at least actually pretty funny, especially the footnotes to the concurrence. A bit Kozinskiesque. Though it won't help his reputation.
It's objectively hilarious, and correct on the merits, but not appropriate. He should have saved it for a law review piece.

That being said, the ATL level wishcasting that VanDyke blasting off against his fellow judges will have some sort of negative repercussion for his clerks is pretty silly. He's also getting plenty of apps (as far I know know, he prefers to hire locals with ties to either Montana or Nevada), his brother has a SCOTUS clerkship, and he's continually getting invited to the most notable panels. He's doing fine.
It’s not his blasting off per se, it’s his intemperateness. Like I said, conservative judges find him embarrassing too. I don’t see how his brother is relevant. Or whether he’s invited to panels, quite frankly. Sometimes people get invited to panels because people find them entertaining even if they don’t garner respect. Does he prefer to hire those law students, or does he just not get as many applications as his colleagues?
And all are signs are people who are important (i.e., not random people on TLS forum/Twitter), don't really have an issue, and in fact, I suspect they encourage his war with the Ninth.

I strongly suspect you need a FedSoc connect to get your app pulled (to the above poster), he's not on Plan.
Conservative judges, who I know *for a fact* find Van Dyke embarrassing, are not random people on Twitter. And every federal judge, respected or not, gets plenty of applications just by virtue of being a federal judge. The question is a relative one, not an absolute one.
Ok? I'm not arguing with you whether some random judges think VanDyke should be taking shots in every opinion at his fellow judges; I would agree with you that he probably shouldn't. I'm pointing out it has next to zero real-world impact.

Also, not a VanDyke thing, but different judges want different things in their clerks. I'll focus on the Fifth, because it's the Circuit I know the best, but you have six new appointees. Oldham looks for SCOTUS caliber applicants above everything else. Willett looks for the same, but prefers TX ties. Ho, who a lot of people thought would be a feeder, decides to just try and find the most conservative people in the country, which I think hurts his feeding potential. Engelhardt (also wants district court clerks), Wilson, and Duncan generally like locals, with some exceptions.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:45 pm

A lot of judges prefer to hire locals regardless of how many applications they get, especially if they’re not from a major coastal/metro area themselves, so I don’t think you can read anything into the hiring practices. And the brother etc could be pertinent to connections that a VanDyke clerk could benefit from. He may get fewer applications because of his temperament, but the competition for clerkships means he’s not really going to suffer.

I mean, I have no interest in clerking for him, and wouldn’t really want to work with someone who did, unless they were able to otherwise indicate that they were normal and not an asshole. I just think there is going to be some pool of people who think that him trying to stick it to the rest of the 9th Circuit shows he has the balls to stand up for what he believes in and speak truth to power. I think those people are idiots and hope it’s a very small number, but I don’t think it’s none.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:32 pm

Not the point but I don't think that's an accurate statement of Ho's hiring preferences. I know most of the Ho clerks from UChicago, which means like half of his clerks, and Josh Hammer aside, most are not particularly conservative by Fed Soc standards. I'd describe his type as "friendly/outgoing cum laude Fed Soc students who aren't from major metros." It's true that compared to Oldham he's not that grade-selective and he doesn't seem to care about being a feeder.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:32 pm
Not the point but I don't think that's an accurate statement of Ho's hiring preferences. I know most of the Ho clerks from UChicago, which means like half of his clerks, and Josh Hammer aside, most are not particularly conservative by Fed Soc standards. I'd describe his type as "friendly/outgoing cum laude Fed Soc students who aren't from major metros." It's true that compared to Oldham he's not that grade-selective and he doesn't seem to care about being a feeder.
I would say I think I know most of the Ho clerks, and I can't really agree with this, though I'll state they were all friendly, sharp, and great people to be around.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:45 pm
He may get fewer applications because of his temperament, but the competition for clerkships means he’s not really going to suffer.
I don't think this is right. Fed Soc clerkships are a seller's market, not a buyer's market, because of the relatively small number of Fed Soc students at top schools. Fed Soc judges who don't attract top Fed Soc applicants and aren't willing to hire liberals generally end up taking people with relatively weak credentials for COA clerkships. Obviously the traditional credentials aren't the be-all-and-end-all, though, especially if you highly value regional ties.

That said I don't think he's in Judge Real worse-than-no-clerkship-at-all territory, probably especially if you want to work in the Rocky Mountains or the sections of the conservative legal movement that find him palatable.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:48 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:45 pm
He may get fewer applications because of his temperament, but the competition for clerkships means he’s not really going to suffer.
I don't think this is right. Fed Soc clerkships are a seller's market, not a buyer's market, because of the relatively small number of Fed Soc students at top schools. Fed Soc judges who don't attract top Fed Soc applicants and aren't willing to hire liberals generally end up taking people with relatively weak credentials for COA clerkships. Obviously the traditional credentials aren't the be-all-and-end-all, though, especially if you highly value regional ties.

That said I don't think he's in Judge Real worse-than-no-clerkship-at-all territory, probably especially if you want to work in the Rocky Mountains or the sections of the conservative legal movement that find him palatable.
For as unlikable as Van Dyke is, I guarantee there's a handful of ultra-conservatives at top schools and/or with good grades at regional schools that like his shtick. I think that he is happy with candidates with marginal credentials so long as they buy into and fuel his cult of personality.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:39 pm

I share the concerns about Judge VanDyke articulated in this thread. But assuming every VanDyke clerk is unlikeable and unqualified says more about you than VanDyke's sharp elbows implies about his former clerks.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:48 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:45 pm
He may get fewer applications because of his temperament, but the competition for clerkships means he’s not really going to suffer.
I don't think this is right. Fed Soc clerkships are a seller's market, not a buyer's market, because of the relatively small number of Fed Soc students at top schools. Fed Soc judges who don't attract top Fed Soc applicants and aren't willing to hire liberals generally end up taking people with relatively weak credentials for COA clerkships. Obviously the traditional credentials aren't the be-all-and-end-all, though, especially if you highly value regional ties.

That said I don't think he's in Judge Real worse-than-no-clerkship-at-all territory, probably especially if you want to work in the Rocky Mountains or the sections of the conservative legal movement that find him palatable.
I should have clarified further - I also don't think that applicants with "relatively weak" credentials are actually going to be any worse clerks than students with top credentials, so in that respect, he's not going to suffer. The top students at not-top schools are still going to be eminently qualified wrt ability, if not pedigree.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:18 pm

I think my main takeaway from this whole debate is it's sad we even have to discuss it. What a waste of a circuit judgeship.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Quichelorraine » Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:54 pm
There is the infamous orientation video
You are killing me here.

(I so want to know more about this.)

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:31 am

Quichelorraine wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:09 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:54 pm
There is the infamous orientation video
You are killing me here.

(I so want to know more about this.)
There are like 150 clerks on the Ninth Circuit, right? I'm surprised this hasn't been spilled yet given how small this world is and how many people must know about it

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Quichelorraine » Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:05 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:31 am
There are like 150 clerks on the Ninth Circuit, right? I'm surprised this hasn't been spilled yet given how small this world is and how many people must know about it
Yes! It's been brought up several times, often with alluring adjectives attached ("infamous!" "notorious!"), but no deets forthcoming and apparently nobody with the foresight to smuggle it out of chambers.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:07 pm

Quichelorraine wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:05 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:31 am
There are like 150 clerks on the Ninth Circuit, right? I'm surprised this hasn't been spilled yet given how small this world is and how many people must know about it
Yes! It's been brought up several times, often with alluring adjectives attached ("infamous!" "notorious!"), but no deets forthcoming and apparently nobody with the foresight to smuggle it out of chambers.
Is the orientation video people are referring to one that is just circulated in his chambers? He did speak in a zoom intro to the 9th circuit thing this last year, and if I heard correctly, he was lifting weights during it to show off. But I am pretty sure I have been hearing about "the VanDyke orientation video" since before that Zoom, so I think it's a *different* embarrassing orientation video.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:07 pm
Quichelorraine wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:05 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 12:31 am
There are like 150 clerks on the Ninth Circuit, right? I'm surprised this hasn't been spilled yet given how small this world is and how many people must know about it
Yes! It's been brought up several times, often with alluring adjectives attached ("infamous!" "notorious!"), but no deets forthcoming and apparently nobody with the foresight to smuggle it out of chambers.
Is the orientation video people are referring to one that is just circulated in his chambers? He did speak in a zoom intro to the 9th circuit thing this last year, and if I heard correctly, he was lifting weights during it to show off. But I am pretty sure I have been hearing about "the VanDyke orientation video" since before that Zoom, so I think it's a *different* embarrassing orientation video.
Not a CA9 clerk and haven't seen the video, but a CA9 clerk told me something about a video in which his (female) judicial assistant served him a martini.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:34 pm

I have seen the VanDyke orientation video. People here are making waaaay too much of it. It was filmed as part of something that the entire CA9 did: filming "introduction" videos to introduce judges and clerks to other chambers since the pandemic made it impossible to do that in person. CA9 has a lot of judges. So the intro videos got very boring very quickly: I'm Judge A, this is Clerk B (name, law school), this is Clerk B (name, law school), etc.

VanDyke's video was a single shot intro to his chambers and clerks. It is about five minutes long. Being a single shot, it is scripted and the staging is coordinated. It obviously took some effort, but the production value is really low--just someone walking around with an iPhone it seems. It is aiming to be funny. The background music is "I'm Proud To Be An American" or something similar. The tone is joival, tongue-in-cheek, and over-the-top patriotic (think Team America).

Throughout the video, Vandyke plays a Michael Scott type character that is self deprecating and intentionally and obviously overacted. So, for example, the video shows that he has a wet bar in his chambers, a benchpress, etc. (all obviously moved in just for the video). The shot of him lifting weights is just him benchpressing the bar (not difficult, and again, obviously over the top and hammed up). One of his clerks is absent because she is on maternity leave. He jokes that it will be "good to have some extra help around here" once the clerk and her newborn are back and able to pitch in. It is clearly a joke and elsewhere he makes clear that he gave her a lot of time off for the birth (something not all judges do). There is a shot of his high-school looking daughter surrounded by lawbooks and drafting a judicial opinion. She asks something like "Dad, this is one of those BIA cases, what do we do with those? Is that a 'reverse?'" And VanDyke says something like "oh, yeah, we always reverse the BIA" in a joking voice. I think it also shows is daughter asking for a martini. And yes, his judicial assistant hands him a martini. It is very obviously a joke. There is no suggestion of anything sexual or anything like that, and his entire staff (and daughter) are in the office for the entire video.

Clearly: none of this would have been appropriate to post on a public website. But it is not objectionable in the least in the form that it was offered in. SCOTUS and other courts routinely call upon clerks to do a "parody" at the end of the term. This video was very much along those lines, with the caveat being that the judge himself was in some of it. You had a hyperconservative judge joking about how he is hyperconservative. I have personally seen law clerk parodies that do much, much worse. This was nothing approaching those.

Why was the reaction so hostile? Foremost I think it is because so many people already find VanDyke distasteful, to say the least. In concrete terms, the only thing objectionable about the video is that there is a shot of a book called RBG's workout plan or something similar. The video was filmed and circulated before her death but seen by many after her death.

Once you consider the very specific audience (judges and clerks--the same audience that routinely views parodies of exactly the kind the video aimed for), the video is fine. People may wring their hands about the tone, or willfully pretend that video was trying to seriously suggest that the judge's daughter works on opinions, that the judge would enlist help from a newborn, or have a full bar in his chambers. But none of those are fair criticisms of the video on objective grounds.

At worst the video wasn't funny. High-horse arguments that it was beneath the dignity of the office, shows ill temperment, or anything like that are hard to credit given the parodies that judges indulge in every year. People don't like VanDyke, so they didn't like the video.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:47 pm

It sounds super cringe, and I guess there are worse things than cringe. But when a guy got a not qualified for temperament, and writes the kind of opinions/dissents he does, well. Let's just say that within the realm of cringe, choosing to do this type of cringe was a choice. Sounds like he wants to be a "fun" congressman, not a federal judge.

ETA - the RBG workout plan is the least objectionable part of it, if anything seems almost a sop to bipartisanship.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 3:34 pm
I have seen the VanDyke orientation video. People here are making waaaay too much of it.

[Lengthy description committed]
Glad to see orientation-gate has been resolved with the culmination that VanDyke likes dad jokes.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Quichelorraine » Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:49 pm

Thanks for the description. I was expecting way worse ("WE ARE WARRIORS/FIGHTING AGAINST THE SCOURGE OF THE COMMIES AND REINHARDTS/AND ALSO POSSIBLY AGENCIES"), but that sounds fine slash hokey.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:50 pm
It's objectively hilarious, and correct on the merits, but not appropriate. He should have saved it for a law review piece.

That being said, the ATL level wishcasting that VanDyke blasting off against his fellow judges will have some sort of negative repercussion for his clerks is pretty silly. He's also getting plenty of apps (as far I know know, he prefers to hire locals with ties to either Montana or Nevada), his brother has a SCOTUS clerkship, and he's continually getting invited to the most notable panels. He's doing fine.
He also has a few co-clerks with Mizelle, which would further cut against the unsubstantiated notion he's somehow anathema to FedSoc clerks.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:32 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:50 pm
It's objectively hilarious, and correct on the merits, but not appropriate. He should have saved it for a law review piece.

That being said, the ATL level wishcasting that VanDyke blasting off against his fellow judges will have some sort of negative repercussion for his clerks is pretty silly. He's also getting plenty of apps (as far I know know, he prefers to hire locals with ties to either Montana or Nevada), his brother has a SCOTUS clerkship, and he's continually getting invited to the most notable panels. He's doing fine.
He also has a few co-clerks with Mizelle, which would further cut against the unsubstantiated notion he's somehow anathema to FedSoc clerks.
I see he's joining forces w/another NQ-rated appointee lmao

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