Best and worst judges to clerk for Forum

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jul 19, 2022 4:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:50 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jul 17, 2022 4:24 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jul 17, 2022 4:10 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jul 17, 2022 3:50 pm
Are there any classic/normal think Roberts (so still decidedly right-wing) GOP appointed Fifth Circuit Judges? Bonus if they are in Texas, but can be in Louisiana or Mississippi too (this is the OP who asked about district judges).
Maybe Judge Smith? Wouldn't call him a "Roberts" conservative, but he's a generation removed from the younger Trump appointees, so less laser-focused on strict originalism/textualism at the expense of precedent. (Others may disagree.)

I would have said Judge Elrod but my impression is she (wrongly) believes she has a shot at SCOTUS and is really trying to up her national conservative creds
Elrod and Smith are both very very conservative. Not Roberts-esque at all.
Doesn't Elrod routinely take counter-clerks or am I just completely confusing her for someone else?
Yes, she does. She has a couple counter clerks lined up for the coming terms. But I guess there’s a tad more uncertainty around her as her jurisprudence seems to have taken a turn right in the last couple years.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jul 19, 2022 11:30 pm

With regard to the Texas convo, Steve Vladeck put together a list of forum-shopped Texas AG cases (Appendix 1). The AG seems to think that Kacsmaryk and Tipton are its best bets, though Barker, Brown, Hendrix, Pittman, and O’Connor have all gotten smaller numbers. Hendrix’s was low-profile and he declined to issue a nationwide injunction so I doubt he’ll get many going forwards. As mentioned earlier they’ve also had no luck in front of Pittman, though he recently got a big gun case.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/ ... ladeck.pdf

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jul 19, 2022 11:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 4:07 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:50 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jul 17, 2022 4:24 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jul 17, 2022 4:10 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jul 17, 2022 3:50 pm
Are there any classic/normal think Roberts (so still decidedly right-wing) GOP appointed Fifth Circuit Judges? Bonus if they are in Texas, but can be in Louisiana or Mississippi too (this is the OP who asked about district judges).
Maybe Judge Smith? Wouldn't call him a "Roberts" conservative, but he's a generation removed from the younger Trump appointees, so less laser-focused on strict originalism/textualism at the expense of precedent. (Others may disagree.)

I would have said Judge Elrod but my impression is she (wrongly) believes she has a shot at SCOTUS and is really trying to up her national conservative creds
Elrod and Smith are both very very conservative. Not Roberts-esque at all.
Doesn't Elrod routinely take counter-clerks or am I just completely confusing her for someone else?
Yes, she does. She has a couple counter clerks lined up for the coming terms. But I guess there’s a tad more uncertainty around her as her jurisprudence seems to have taken a turn right in the last couple years.
I know former clerks of Elrod's who are liberals. Her recent hard-right turn is a head-scratcher, since I don't remember her being as crazy even a few years ago. I doubt that she thinks she has a shot at SCOTUS like the above poster mentioned though - I just looked it up, and she'll be 58 by 2024. Maybe she's just easily swayed by the Trump judges on her panel?

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jul 19, 2022 11:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 11:30 pm
With regard to the Texas convo, Steve Vladeck put together a list of forum-shopped Texas AG cases (Appendix 1). The AG seems to think that Kacsmaryk and Tipton are its best bets, though Barker, Brown, Hendrix, Pittman, and O’Connor have all gotten smaller numbers. Hendrix’s was low-profile and he declined to issue a nationwide injunction so I doubt he’ll get many going forwards. As mentioned earlier they’ve also had no luck in front of Pittman, though he recently got a big gun case.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/ ... ladeck.pdf
Steve Vladeck's discovery of the hitherto unknown concept of forum shopping aside, this basically just tells you which judges are likely to hear civil cases filed in their division. It's not like anyone thinks Tipton is more conservative than say, Andrew Hanen.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:18 pm

What's Elrod like as a boss? Also, is there anything to the rumor that Jones actively dislikes Elrod?

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:18 pm
What's Elrod like as a boss? Also, is there anything to the rumor that Jones actively dislikes Elrod?
Not going to lie if it is true that Jones actively dislikes then maybe Elrod is actually alright after all.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jul 20, 2022 9:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 11:54 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 11:30 pm
With regard to the Texas convo, Steve Vladeck put together a list of forum-shopped Texas AG cases (Appendix 1). The AG seems to think that Kacsmaryk and Tipton are its best bets, though Barker, Brown, Hendrix, Pittman, and O’Connor have all gotten smaller numbers. Hendrix’s was low-profile and he declined to issue a nationwide injunction so I doubt he’ll get many going forwards. As mentioned earlier they’ve also had no luck in front of Pittman, though he recently got a big gun case.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/ ... ladeck.pdf
Steve Vladeck's discovery of the hitherto unknown concept of forum shopping aside, this basically just tells you which judges are likely to hear civil cases filed in their division. It's not like anyone thinks Tipton is more conservative than say, Andrew Hanen.
No, because there are tons of tiny divisions in TX and the AG only picks a few. This metric does miss conservatives in the Houston division though.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:55 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:18 pm
What's Elrod like as a boss? Also, is there anything to the rumor that Jones actively dislikes Elrod?
Have heard enough bad things to stay away. Doesn't sound like it's anything like Kozinski or Holmes, but maybe the tier right below. Also, apparently the other Fifth Circuit judges don't think she is particularly bright.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:17 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:18 pm
What's Elrod like as a boss? Also, is there anything to the rumor that Jones actively dislikes Elrod?
Have heard she yells, is wildly temperamental, and forces her clerks to spend a substantial amount of time working on her weird annual musical/play.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:17 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:18 pm
What's Elrod like as a boss? Also, is there anything to the rumor that Jones actively dislikes Elrod?
Have heard she yells, is wildly temperamental, and forces her clerks to spend a substantial amount of time working on her weird annual musical/play.
Can someone elaborate about what this is?

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Chokenhauer » Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:45 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:17 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:18 pm
What's Elrod like as a boss? Also, is there anything to the rumor that Jones actively dislikes Elrod?
Have heard she yells, is wildly temperamental, and forces her clerks to spend a substantial amount of time working on her weird annual musical/play.
Can someone elaborate about what this is?
Don’t know, but I recall her singing constantly in any of her interviews

https://abovethelaw.com/2020/11/federal ... 020/?amp=1

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jul 23, 2022 1:14 pm

Chokenhauer wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:55 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:45 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:17 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:18 pm
What's Elrod like as a boss? Also, is there anything to the rumor that Jones actively dislikes Elrod?
Have heard she yells, is wildly temperamental, and forces her clerks to spend a substantial amount of time working on her weird annual musical/play.
Can someone elaborate about what this is?
Don’t know, but I recall her singing constantly in any of her interviews

https://abovethelaw.com/2020/11/federal ... 020/?amp=1
Immediately withdraws application

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jul 23, 2022 3:58 pm

Huh they actually have good voices

And yeah there’s an annual law revue thing down in Texas that Elrod is involved in. Iirc some other courts have similar traditions, including SCOTUS.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jul 24, 2022 11:31 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:55 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:18 pm
What's Elrod like as a boss? Also, is there anything to the rumor that Jones actively dislikes Elrod?
Have heard enough bad things to stay away. Doesn't sound like it's anything like Kozinski or Holmes, but maybe the tier right below. Also, apparently the other Fifth Circuit judges don't think she is particularly bright.
I heard similar things when I thought about applying - Elrod went from Texas state trial court to the 5th Circuit and didn't seem to have much appellate experience before, which might be part of it? A senator who opposed her nomination (Democratic senator, but still) noted that she hadn't written any opinions while she was on the state trial court, only 1-page orders: https://www.cardin.senate.gov/press-rel ... h-circuit/.

It's not like there's a shortage of experienced and conservative appellate lawyers in Texas, so I wonder what led the Bush White House to select her.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jul 24, 2022 6:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:18 pm
What's Elrod like as a boss? Also, is there anything to the rumor that Jones actively dislikes Elrod?
This is true, although Jones also just isn't shy about acknowledging who she dislikes. But it's a reported fact that she resigned as Chief early in order to push back Elrod's chiefship as far as possible (Richman would have been skipped if Jones finished her term, instead she's getting 5 full years).

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jul 24, 2022 6:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 6:14 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:18 pm
What's Elrod like as a boss? Also, is there anything to the rumor that Jones actively dislikes Elrod?
This is true, although Jones also just isn't shy about acknowledging who she dislikes. But it's a reported fact that she resigned as Chief early in order to push back Elrod's chiefship as far as possible (Richman would have been skipped if Jones finished her term, instead she's getting 5 full years).
This conspiracy theory has already been proven false on this forum.
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Feb 16, 2022 5:41 pm
Jones thinks Elrod is incompetent. Frankly I don't think she's wrong about that. Jones also loves Owen, and resigning when she did made it so Owen could become chief judge (if Jones had served her full term, Owen would have been too old to become chief judge by the time Elrod's term expired).

This is incorrect. At no point would Judge Elrod ever have become Chief Judge before Judge Owen, and in no way did Judge Jones do anything that prevents Judge Elrod from becoming Chief Judge.

If Judge Jones had served her full term, Judge Stewart's tenure would have blocked Judge Owen from becoming Chief Judge. So it would've gone from Judge Jones to Judge Stewart to Judge Elrod.

By stepping down a year early, Jboth Judge Owen and Judge Elrod will serve as Chief Judges of the Fifth Circuit. It went from Judge Jones to Judge Stewart to Judge Owen and next to Judge Elrod.

Had Judge Jones stepped down two years early, Judge Smith would have become Chief Judge, Judge Stewart never would have been Chief Judge, Judge Owen would still be the current Chief Judge, and Judge Elrod would still be the next Chief Judge.

Instead of impugning or assigning motives, maybe we just take Judge Jones at her word that she stepped aside when she did for family reasons. Because it's clear that if she were doing it to be tactical or strategic, she would have stepped down a year prior, thereby ensuring four consecutive conservative Chief Judges.
[/quote]

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:30 am

I could care less about what Jones may or may not think about Elrod, but the reports of Elrod's qualities as a boss are alarming.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:37 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:30 am
I could care less about what Jones may or may not think about Elrod, but the reports of Elrod's qualities as a boss are alarming.
I don't know Elrod at all, but if people are still parroting easily disproven BS about Jones and Elrod, it indicates they probably don't know much about the Fifth Circuit. I'd take everything said above with a mountain of salt.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:06 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:37 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:30 am
I could care less about what Jones may or may not think about Elrod, but the reports of Elrod's qualities as a boss are alarming.
I don't know Elrod at all, but if people are still parroting easily disproven BS about Jones and Elrod, it indicates they probably don't know much about the Fifth Circuit. I'd take everything said above with a mountain of salt.
Given all that we know about the insanity of the modern conservative movement, is it too wild to believe that a couple of their judges are bad bosses?

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:36 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:06 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:37 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:30 am
I could care less about what Jones may or may not think about Elrod, but the reports of Elrod's qualities as a boss are alarming.
I don't know Elrod at all, but if people are still parroting easily disproven BS about Jones and Elrod, it indicates they probably don't know much about the Fifth Circuit. I'd take everything said above with a mountain of salt.
Given all that we know about the insanity of the modern conservative movement, is it too wild to believe that a couple of their judges are bad bosses?
Uh, what? Why would being conservative make someone more likely to be a bad boss? And what does any of this have to do with Elrod?

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jul 26, 2022 11:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:36 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:06 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:37 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:30 am
I could care less about what Jones may or may not think about Elrod, but the reports of Elrod's qualities as a boss are alarming.
I don't know Elrod at all, but if people are still parroting easily disproven BS about Jones and Elrod, it indicates they probably don't know much about the Fifth Circuit. I'd take everything said above with a mountain of salt.
Given all that we know about the insanity of the modern conservative movement, is it too wild to believe that a couple of their judges are bad bosses?
Uh, what? Why would being conservative make someone more likely to be a bad boss? And what does any of this have to do with Elrod?
Lol seriously. Elrod may be a bad boss, but it ain’t because she is a conservative. Ever heard of Reinhardt?

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:48 am

Yeah, there are lots of ways to be a terrible boss, and the vast majority of them don’t have anything to do with a judge’s politics.

I get that a certain kind of conservative would be a bad boss for a certain kind of liberal, but that’s different.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:48 am
Yeah, there are lots of ways to be a terrible boss, and the vast majority of them don’t have anything to do with a judge’s politics.

I get that a certain kind of conservative would be a bad boss for a certain kind of liberal, but that’s different.
Not the OP who brought this up, but I can understand ideology affecting the clerkship experience with a Ho or a VanDyke (please don't let this start another tangent about him, he's just one of the more obvious examples), who would be tough to clerk for if you're not on their ideological wavelength - but that's why they hire hard-right folks.

More generally, I do wonder if there's any correlation between judges who are more ideological (on both the right and left) and being more demanding bosses. My thought is that they would write more concurrences/dissents to really nudge the law in their preferred direction, and therefore go through more drafts/edits. Not saying that it would always mean they're bad to work for, but seems like it would make a clerkship a tougher experience. This is pure speculation based on someone who is not clerking for a very ideological judge though, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jul 28, 2022 12:40 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:56 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:48 am
Yeah, there are lots of ways to be a terrible boss, and the vast majority of them don’t have anything to do with a judge’s politics.

I get that a certain kind of conservative would be a bad boss for a certain kind of liberal, but that’s different.
Not the OP who brought this up, but I can understand ideology affecting the clerkship experience with a Ho or a VanDyke (please don't let this start another tangent about him, he's just one of the more obvious examples), who would be tough to clerk for if you're not on their ideological wavelength - but that's why they hire hard-right folks.

More generally, I do wonder if there's any correlation between judges who are more ideological (on both the right and left) and being more demanding bosses. My thought is that they would write more concurrences/dissents to really nudge the law in their preferred direction, and therefore go through more drafts/edits. Not saying that it would always mean they're bad to work for, but seems like it would make a clerkship a tougher experience. This is pure speculation based on someone who is not clerking for a very ideological judge though, so please correct me if I'm wrong.
liberal / conservative is not a useful ideological spectrum in gauging 'difficult' judges; more apt would be authoritarian vs. laissez-fair personality types. based on my interactions with a few judges across the country, politics and personalities correlate little.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by lavarman84 » Thu Jul 28, 2022 4:38 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:56 pm
Not the OP who brought this up, but I can understand ideology affecting the clerkship experience with a Ho or a VanDyke (please don't let this start another tangent about him, he's just one of the more obvious examples), who would be tough to clerk for if you're not on their ideological wavelength - but that's why they hire hard-right folks.

More generally, I do wonder if there's any correlation between judges who are more ideological (on both the right and left) and being more demanding bosses. My thought is that they would write more concurrences/dissents to really nudge the law in their preferred direction, and therefore go through more drafts/edits. Not saying that it would always mean they're bad to work for, but seems like it would make a clerkship a tougher experience. This is pure speculation based on someone who is not clerking for a very ideological judge though, so please correct me if I'm wrong.
Nah, I think it's just a total crapshoot based on personality. You can work yourself and your clerks fairly hard while still being a pleasant person and a kind boss.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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