Best and worst judges to clerk for Forum

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:23 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:53 am
On career repercussions, there are a lot of jobs that are not biglaw. The clerkship profs at my school (HYSCCN) have a (short) informal blacklist of judges who liberal students interested in liberal government/PI positions should not apply to due to career and experience concerns. Most of them do not hire liberals anyway, as you note, but I know of students who got interviews despite being told not to apply and the school strongly pushed them to cancel/withdraw.

Aside from career issues, ideology affects the clerkship experience. I have a good friend who clerked or is clerking for a judge mentioned in this thread and it definitely affected his/hers. I have another friend that was expected to constantly talk about why impeachment, Russiagate, etc. with their very right-wing judge and coclerks at lunch and whatever (not a Trump appointee so not mentioned). That's in large part why there's huge interest in judge ideology on this forum. It is impossible to research every judge in-depth before applying and many students use TLS to help. If you don't have any contributions, you can always not comment rather than add an umpteenth contribution to the meta-debate. If you think you have helpful advice like LBJ's Hair above, I and others commenting here would appreciate it. Obviously personal experience is much, much more valuable than just "I don't like this person's opinions," which is part of why it's in this thread.
FWIW, I'd avoid R. Nelson if you're a liberal. But odds are that he wouldn't hire you anyways.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:51 am

How very TLS for a thread to get dragged down by folks trying to litigate the finer points of what falls under a particular thread’s jurisdiction when it’s pretty obviously the same general topic but they don’t like what’s being said.

This is relevant information to a lot of people and the kind of clerkship experience they’d have—there’s a huge difference between being conservative (even extremely conservative) and being a reactionary. If you can’t tell the difference between Jeff Sutton and Justin Walker then I don’t know if you’ve read either of their opinions. As one prof at my HYSCCN put it when I asked about clerking for newly appointed judges, “If Trump wins, you can expect a raft of new judges. Some of them will be great, others will be hacks.”

So I’ll add that I’ve asked around and John Cronan in SDNY has a good rep.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Nov 10, 2020 5:03 am

For whatever it's worth, I clerked for a Bush appointee who would have been on the "nuts" list if this thread had been written at the end of the Bush years. Over the years since this judge has hired about 50/50 liberal and conservative clerks, has placed clerks at SCOTUS, and has clerk alumni who are tenured faculty, biglaw partners, career fedgov, and judges themselves. This isn't to make myself sound fancy or important because I'm not. But you shouldn't rush to judge a judge based on the circumstances surrounding their appointment and how hard the other party resisted their confirmation.

jackshunger

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by jackshunger » Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:04 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:51 am
How very TLS for a thread to get dragged down by folks trying to litigate the finer points of what falls under a particular thread’s jurisdiction when it’s pretty obviously the same general topic but they don’t like what’s being said.

This is relevant information to a lot of people and the kind of clerkship experience they’d have—there’s a huge difference between being conservative (even extremely conservative) and being a reactionary. If you can’t tell the difference between Jeff Sutton and Justin Walker then I don’t know if you’ve read either of their opinions. As one prof at my HYSCCN put it when I asked about clerking for newly appointed judges, “If Trump wins, you can expect a raft of new judges. Some of them will be great, others will be hacks.”

So I’ll add that I’ve asked around and John Cronan in SDNY has a good rep.
I was commenting on the thread being polluted with ATL level takes that numerous posters have already pointed out were incorrect. If people have experience with judges they want to share, they can do that. Anon posters clogging up the thread with a list of judges that are "respectable" and "nuts" based on no information is unhelpful to anyone trying to learn about the day-to-day of chambers or who to apply to.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:45 am

jackshunger wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:07 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:54 pm

VanDyke is an under the radar candidate for the Nuts category. Collins is very conservative, but I don’t think he’s nuts.
Brave anon, please inform us which one of the 6 opinions VanDyke has written that indicates he is a "nut." Or do you have some personal information to share about his chambers which would be helpful to applicants? Or are you just reciting information from his confirmation hearing that any applicant could look up with a Google search?
Anon here. Did it occur to you that perhaps I might be privy to information beyond his 6 published opinions? Or are you too wrapped up in your ridiculous anon crusade to realize that there are a lot of people who post here who know what they are talking about? When I was applying for clerkships, I was very thankful for people’s willingness to anonymously share what they knew about various judges. Not sure why you’re intent on trying to shut that down

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stoopkid13

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by stoopkid13 » Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:45 am
jackshunger wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:07 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:54 pm

VanDyke is an under the radar candidate for the Nuts category. Collins is very conservative, but I don’t think he’s nuts.
Brave anon, please inform us which one of the 6 opinions VanDyke has written that indicates he is a "nut." Or do you have some personal information to share about his chambers which would be helpful to applicants? Or are you just reciting information from his confirmation hearing that any applicant could look up with a Google search?
Anon here. Did it occur to you that perhaps I might be privy to information beyond his 6 published opinions? Or are you too wrapped up in your ridiculous anon crusade to realize that there are a lot of people who post here who know what they are talking about? When I was applying for clerkships, I was very thankful for people’s willingness to anonymously share what they knew about various judges. Not sure why you’re intent on trying to shut that down
Brave anon, your posts would be helpful, if they actually shared any information. Just calling a judge a "nut" is hardly illuminating.

This is really just anon abuse. Anon is used to allow people to share insider information--not air their personal "hot-takes".

LBJ's Hair

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by LBJ's Hair » Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:12 pm

I think the question that is relevant for clerkship applicants is "Is there a consensus among right-of-center center to left-of-center lawyers that XYZ judge is someone who, you know, is kinda nutty?" There are a few of judges that fall into the former category, and it's useful to flag them.

It's not "Do liberal advocacy orgs and law professors dislike this person?" You shouldn't give a shit if the ACLU dislikes Judge Sullivan and Judge Bibas (they do!) unless you want to work there.

Think pretty much everyone agrees that the former is worth talking about in this thread, and the latter isn't.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Nov 10, 2020 2:09 pm

Is anyone plugged into the local bar enough to know how Alston's (EDVA) first year on the bench went?

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:45 am
jackshunger wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:07 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:54 pm

VanDyke is an under the radar candidate for the Nuts category. Collins is very conservative, but I don’t think he’s nuts.
Brave anon, please inform us which one of the 6 opinions VanDyke has written that indicates he is a "nut." Or do you have some personal information to share about his chambers which would be helpful to applicants? Or are you just reciting information from his confirmation hearing that any applicant could look up with a Google search?
Anon here. Did it occur to you that perhaps I might be privy to information beyond his 6 published opinions? Or are you too wrapped up in your ridiculous anon crusade to realize that there are a lot of people who post here who know what they are talking about? When I was applying for clerkships, I was very thankful for people’s willingness to anonymously share what they knew about various judges. Not sure why you’re intent on trying to shut that down
Seconding this as someone privy to his chambers. VanDyke is extremely unprofessional. If you know someone clerking on the Ninth Circuit this term, ask them about VanDyke's orientation video.

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Anonymous User
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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:22 pm

Have had friends interview with VanDyke who have described him as beyond the pale--super weird religiously, obviously letting it seep into his work and his hiring, etc.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:32 pm

Any more details on VanDyke? Sounds juicy.

Unrelatedly, it's probably not worth worrying about this stuff for blue-state district judges. There are some youngish conservatives--Cronan, Kovner, Pacold, Seeger--but if you get blue-slipped by, for example, Schumer and Gillibrand, you're almost certainly not a nut. I have (liberal) friends clerking or going to clerk for a couple of those four and they sound lovely, liberal profs had wonderful things to say about all of them, etc.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:22 pm
Have had friends interview with VanDyke who have described him as beyond the pale--super weird religiously, obviously letting it seep into his work and his hiring, etc.
Not sure what he is like working in chambers, but I can chime in to say that I had a great interaction with him. I emailed his judicial assistant to let his chambers know I was withdrawing my application after getting a job with another judge, and he reached out personally to congratulate me and apologize for not interviewing me sooner. He struck me as kind and thoughtful--no other judges did anything like that.

aegor

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by aegor » Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:05 pm
Seconding this as someone privy to his chambers. VanDyke is extremely unprofessional. If you know someone clerking on the Ninth Circuit this term, ask them about VanDyke's orientation video.
Why, when you can just tell us? The entire point of this idiotic ideological digression and even more tangential anon abuse is to establish at least some semblance of useful information. In what ways is he unprofessional?

Another user mentioned "religious seepage." What religious seepage, specifically? If anyone clerking on the Ninth is aware is aware of the information, it is clearly not so rarely held that it would penetrate the shield of anonymity. So spill.

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lavarman84

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by lavarman84 » Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:33 pm

FedSoc bros, take your butthurtness out of here. Anons being willing to share information is quite valuable. I agree that the respectable/nuts list was unnecessary and not useful, but actual info from people who are or have clerked on the 9th is quite useful.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:21 pm

stoopkid13 wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:04 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:45 am
jackshunger wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:07 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:54 pm

VanDyke is an under the radar candidate for the Nuts category. Collins is very conservative, but I don’t think he’s nuts.
Brave anon, please inform us which one of the 6 opinions VanDyke has written that indicates he is a "nut." Or do you have some personal information to share about his chambers which would be helpful to applicants? Or are you just reciting information from his confirmation hearing that any applicant could look up with a Google search?
Anon here. Did it occur to you that perhaps I might be privy to information beyond his 6 published opinions? Or are you too wrapped up in your ridiculous anon crusade to realize that there are a lot of people who post here who know what they are talking about? When I was applying for clerkships, I was very thankful for people’s willingness to anonymously share what they knew about various judges. Not sure why you’re intent on trying to shut that down
Brave anon, your posts would be helpful, if they actually shared any information. Just calling a judge a "nut" is hardly illuminating.

This is really just anon abuse. Anon is used to allow people to share insider information--not air their personal "hot-takes".
Sorry, given the previous posts, I though it was clear that “Nuts” in this context meant someone in the vein of Ho, Duncan, and others mentioned. I don’t think it’s a “hot take” when it’s based on stuff thats not public information; as other people have pointed out, the judge in question doesn’t have much of a public record so I would have thought some might appreciate the info. But apparently some people just don’t like views they disagreed with.

GoneSouth

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by GoneSouth » Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:05 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:45 am
jackshunger wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:07 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:54 pm

VanDyke is an under the radar candidate for the Nuts category. Collins is very conservative, but I don’t think he’s nuts.
Brave anon, please inform us which one of the 6 opinions VanDyke has written that indicates he is a "nut." Or do you have some personal information to share about his chambers which would be helpful to applicants? Or are you just reciting information from his confirmation hearing that any applicant could look up with a Google search?
Anon here. Did it occur to you that perhaps I might be privy to information beyond his 6 published opinions? Or are you too wrapped up in your ridiculous anon crusade to realize that there are a lot of people who post here who know what they are talking about? When I was applying for clerkships, I was very thankful for people’s willingness to anonymously share what they knew about various judges. Not sure why you’re intent on trying to shut that down
Seconding this as someone privy to his chambers. VanDyke is extremely unprofessional. If you know someone clerking on the Ninth Circuit this term, ask them about VanDyke's orientation video.
I have also heard mention of the orientation video...

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by GoneSouth » Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:31 pm

aegor wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:35 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:05 pm
Seconding this as someone privy to his chambers. VanDyke is extremely unprofessional. If you know someone clerking on the Ninth Circuit this term, ask them about VanDyke's orientation video.
Why, when you can just tell us? The entire point of this idiotic ideological digression and even more tangential anon abuse is to establish at least some semblance of useful information. In what ways is he unprofessional?

Another user mentioned "religious seepage." What religious seepage, specifically? If anyone clerking on the Ninth is aware is aware of the information, it is clearly not so rarely held that it would penetrate the shield of anonymity. So spill.
It’s an entirely appropriate use of anon to share impressions of judges gained through personal interactions with them, even if you don’t feel comfortable providing every gory detail. There are billions of anonymous posts on here with people sharing that they’ve heard that X judge doesn’t treat their staff well, or clerks for Y judge work long hours, and nobody calls it anon abuse just because they don’t lay out everything they’ve heard.

It seems like a few people, perhaps with a connection to some of the judges mentioned?, are getting triggered by the fact that people who have interacted with certain Trump-appointed judges have negative impressions of them. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with people posting those impressions anonymously, and other people who disagree can post their own impressions. Then people applying for clerkships can weigh everything and determine the weight to give to it.

I clerked for a judge who had negative things posted about him/her in this thread, and my experience couldn’t have been more different from what was posted. But I appreciated having that info when I applied.

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aegor

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by aegor » Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:49 pm

GoneSouth wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:31 pm
It’s an entirely appropriate use of anon to share impressions of judges gained through personal interactions with them, even if you don’t feel comfortable providing every gory detail. There are billions of anonymous posts on here with people sharing that they’ve heard that X judge doesn’t treat their staff well, or clerks for Y judge work long hours, and nobody calls it anon abuse just because they don’t lay out everything they’ve heard.
Those are all helpful and reasonably specific pieces of information, though. "Long hours" can at least be tethered to standard work hours. "X is unprofessional" is so vague as to be virtually meaningless. Judge Smith's chambers have no dress code. Is that what is meant by "unprofessional"? Judge Kozinski engaged in sexual misconduct. Is that what is meant by "unprofessional"? That piece of "information" is so vague as to be completely unhelpful.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with people posting those impressions anonymously, and other people who disagree can post their own impressions. Then people applying for clerkships can weigh everything and determine the weight to give to it.
No one is disputing any of that. There are two separate concerns:
1) Whether it is helpful to label certain judges "nuts" with basically no reasoning or explanation.
2) Whether it is helpful to post extraordinarily vague comments about chambers/the judges themselves that appear to be completely subjective.

I would say "no" to both. Case in point: The anonymous poster before you said that it seemed "clear that 'Nuts' in this context meant someone in the vein of Ho . . . ." Despite that initial claim being raised two pages back, we still have not been provided any further details, substantiation, or explanation. What does "nuts" even mean? How is that label useful? "Sotomayor's jurisprudence is nuts" is not helpful information; indeed, it is not information at all.

Iowahawk

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Iowahawk » Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:20 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:53 am
If you don't have any contributions, you can always not comment rather than add an umpteenth contribution to the meta-debate.
Look, clerkship applicants take what they can get. Clearly there's some useful stuff in this mini-thread. Obviously more specific stuff would be better. But the constant working of the (nonexistent) refs is derailing this thread worse than the supposed derailers. We're all adults who can judge the value of the contributions for ourselves. It seems that everyone is (or at least should be after all of this discussion) reasonably clear on what's helpful and what's not.

And for the love of god, what is this VanDyke introduction thing? You're anonymous and the whole Ninth Circuit apparently knows, someone spit it up.

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GFox345

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by GFox345 » Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:31 am

jackshunger wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:23 pm
Pennoyer v. Meh wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:09 pm
jackshunger wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:58 pm
Can we not sidetrack a useful thread with pointless blathering about the ideologies of various justices? Willett just fed a clerk to SCOTUS. Obviously, he is held in high regard by important people. The same is true with Rao, Ho, Walker; basically everyone else on the above list. If you get a clerkship with them, you are in a significantly better position than if you didn't. The idea Gibson Dunn DC or whoever is going to toss your application in the trash because you had the "wrong" DC Circuit clerkship is laughable. If you don't like their ideology and don't want to work with them, just don't apply. You can always ask about ideologies in the individual circuit threads. This thread was meant to get the inside scoop from actual clerks about how individual judges treat their clerks, not to whine that Judge Willett is conservative.
I generally agree with that, though I think there's a small subset of judges (primarily Rao, Ho, Walker) who are so damaging to this country that it deserves to be noted. The prestige may still be there, but for these judges there should be an asterisk.
Exactly the type of unhelpful reply, based off of no information and deliberately inflammatory, I was talking about. Go create a "I hate Trump judges" post elsewhere on this forum and centralize useless discussion there.
Sometimes I think TLS could benefit from an upvoting feature. lol

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Quichelorraine » Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:09 pm

Iowahawk wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:20 am

And for the love of god, what is this VanDyke introduction thing? You're anonymous and the whole Ninth Circuit apparently knows, someone spit it up.
Yes yes yes. Please spill. Between this and the comment about his "weird" religiosity, I'm envisioning some sort of hallowed affair in which mysterious, robed figures stalk the halls of dark catacombs, hissing Gollum-esque about "tricksy ERISA" and "transgendereds."

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:09 pm

Anyone have personal experiences with McKeague or Gilman in the Sixth Circuit?

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 2:09 pm
Is anyone plugged into the local bar enough to know how Alston's (EDVA) first year on the bench went?
Seconding this question.

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:48 am

So I am considering being a prosecutor for a career after law school but wanted to clerk first. While it would be ideal to get a judge who handles criminal, how much would it hurt my chances if the judge does not do criminal cases but civil cases?

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Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:09 am

This is (often) inverse.

Judges with lots of criminal experience (former AUSAs) don't need their clerks to handle criminal - they just do civil (after all, the Judge knows the criminal stuff really well).

Conversely, judges with little criminal experience often use their clerks for more criminal stuff.

It really depends what kind of prosecutor you want to be. USAOs are often very competitive, so picking a judge who was formerly a high-ranked AUSA and has connections is often a better choice - even if that means you don't do criminal stuff while working - you can still observe the process, pick your judge's brain about it, etc.

if you want to be a ADA in a non-prestige district, it doesn't matter what kind of federal judge you clerk for.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

Now there's a charge.
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