Clerks Taking Questions Forum

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nixy

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by nixy » Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:16 am

polareagle wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:18 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:56 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:10 pm
Is it always best to submit an application via mail/email than OSCAR?
No, OSCAR is there for a reason and most judges do not accept mailed or emailed apps. It's also administratively much easier to submit through OSCAR than it is to manage printing, PDF merging, etc.
Eh. Agree re: e-mail, that's just annoying. But unless the OSCAR profile says "no paper applications," I don't think you hurt yourself by applying via paper (or both ways). From experience, a paper app will always get read by someone. An OSCAR app might get sorted away. (Note, my experience was pre-COVID. If everything's remote, paper apps may not get read nearly as frequently.)
This was very much my experience as well. Again, pre-covid - I know many chambers are now working remotely, and while someone is going to be checking the physical mail I don’t know how that would affect paper apps. But also keep in mind that anyone applying off plan is going to have to submit some other way than OSCAR.

And again this is all subject to the “judges are idiosyncratic” rule so there are going to be some judges who look at paper and some who won’t. I know when I was applying I actually got a couple of responses telling me that they didn’t take paper apps and that
I should apply through OSCAR (and I’m sure there were some who didn’t bother telling me and just pitched the app too).

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mjb447

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by mjb447 » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:45 am

polareagle wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:25 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:26 pm
I'd heard that email apps were more likely to get read than OSCAR because they were at least scanned once--is that not true in your experience (accounting for the differences between judges, of course)?
If the judge provides an email address for e-mail apps / specifies that they want them that way, then yes, email is probably slightly more likely to get read than OSCAR.

If you're just thinking of kind of randomly emailing chambers, don't. My experience could be different because the district court I clerked on was on an old email system until my last week, but we only checked our "chambers" email sporadically--like once every few weeks at most when someone remembered. (Usually because we were waiting for something from the one probation officer who for some reason emailed that account rather than the clerk assigned to the case.) Given that, a paper app would be far more likely to get read, although I suppose an email would still be read more quickly than a random OSCAR app. But YMMV by chambers. (Whatever you do, don't email the judge's actual email unless you *know* it's okay. Mine would have been pissed.)
This is a good point about emailing. I think every chambers I clerked for had a general chambers address formatted like [judge's initials]_chambers@[court].uscourts.gov or very similar, and an enterprising applicant could probably have figured that out, but in a lot of cases an application submitted to it wouldn't have been seen for a while and might have stood out in a weird way.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:07 am

mjb447 wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:45 am
polareagle wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:25 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:26 pm
I'd heard that email apps were more likely to get read than OSCAR because they were at least scanned once--is that not true in your experience (accounting for the differences between judges, of course)?
If the judge provides an email address for e-mail apps / specifies that they want them that way, then yes, email is probably slightly more likely to get read than OSCAR.

If you're just thinking of kind of randomly emailing chambers, don't. My experience could be different because the district court I clerked on was on an old email system until my last week, but we only checked our "chambers" email sporadically--like once every few weeks at most when someone remembered. (Usually because we were waiting for something from the one probation officer who for some reason emailed that account rather than the clerk assigned to the case.) Given that, a paper app would be far more likely to get read, although I suppose an email would still be read more quickly than a random OSCAR app. But YMMV by chambers. (Whatever you do, don't email the judge's actual email unless you *know* it's okay. Mine would have been pissed.)
This is a good point about emailing. I think every chambers I clerked for had a general chambers address formatted like [judge's initials]_chambers@[court].uscourts.gov or very similar, and an enterprising applicant could probably have figured that out, but in a lot of cases an application submitted to it wouldn't have been seen for a while and might have stood out in a weird way.
What's the best way for professors to reach out to chambers on your behalf? Email the JA? The chambers account? Just call and talk to whoever answers?

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polareagle

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by polareagle » Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:29 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:07 am
What's the best way for professors to reach out to chambers on your behalf? Email the JA? The chambers account? Just call and talk to whoever answers?
Always call. The JA and/or clerks are used to receiving these calls and will know what to do (whether that's to put it through to the judge or take a message in case the judge wants to call back after pulling the application).

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mjb447

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by mjb447 » Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:40 am

polareagle wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:29 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:07 am
What's the best way for professors to reach out to chambers on your behalf? Email the JA? The chambers account? Just call and talk to whoever answers?
Always call. The JA and/or clerks are used to receiving these calls and will know what to do (whether that's to put it through to the judge or take a message in case the judge wants to call back after pulling the application).
+1. You've got letters of recommendation to advocate for you in writing if the judge decides to read them; at the right stage of the process, a phone call does very helpful things that an email or letter doesn't. (Profs who are at all familiar with the process will probably know to call as well.)

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:04 pm

If there are any clerks on here for CADC or any feeders on the district courts/SSCs—is a clerkship with a brand-name but not-really-feeder 2/9 judge likely to help much to get me to the top of the pile?

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:04 pm
If there are any clerks on here for CADC or any feeders on the district courts/SSCs—is a clerkship with a brand-name but not-really-feeder 2/9 judge likely to help much to get me to the top of the pile?
Can't hurt. What would really help is if your current judge knows the CADC/feeder judge and is willing to make a phone call saying what an excellent clerk you. That will at a minimum get you out of the pile.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Mar 02, 2021 4:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:27 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:04 pm
If there are any clerks on here for CADC or any feeders on the district courts/SSCs—is a clerkship with a brand-name but not-really-feeder 2/9 judge likely to help much to get me to the top of the pile?
Can't hurt. What would really help is if your current judge knows the CADC/feeder judge and is willing to make a phone call saying what an excellent clerk you. That will at a minimum get you out of the pile.
I appreciate that that's the ideal scenario, but how does this ever happen in practice when the feeders are all hiring 2+ years out? Are the people who land feeders for their second clerkships by getting their first judge to call just taking a gap in between?

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 4:26 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:27 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:04 pm
If there are any clerks on here for CADC or any feeders on the district courts/SSCs—is a clerkship with a brand-name but not-really-feeder 2/9 judge likely to help much to get me to the top of the pile?
Can't hurt. What would really help is if your current judge knows the CADC/feeder judge and is willing to make a phone call saying what an excellent clerk you. That will at a minimum get you out of the pile.
I appreciate that that's the ideal scenario, but how does this ever happen in practice when the feeders are all hiring 2+ years out? Are the people who land feeders for their second clerkships by getting their first judge to call just taking a gap in between?
It depends on the judge, but several judges (mainly those who are trying to become feeders) will proactively work to help their clerks get additional clerkships with feeders, even if the clerk hasn't begun work for them yet. Thapar did this before he became a feeder in his own right, Stras does it now, and I believe it's at least somewhat common practice on SDNY. Circuit judges will also often help their future clerks get district clerkships and vice versa, although this is more often limited to judges within the same state or circuit.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Mar 03, 2021 3:14 pm

Yeah you see this sometimes—off the top of my head, I think Katsas has maybe taken clerks from Ikuta, Stras, and Barrett recently, all of whom are probably best classified as “semi-feeders.” I also know of someone that leveraged a non-feeder Fed Soc judge to get a Stras clerkship. And on the district court level I know people have used e.g. Bibas or Owen to get Feinerman, who only hires appellate clerks. I think these people all applied during law school though. Double-COA is much more common for conservatives than for liberals.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Mar 03, 2021 3:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:32 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 4:26 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:27 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:04 pm
If there are any clerks on here for CADC or any feeders on the district courts/SSCs—is a clerkship with a brand-name but not-really-feeder 2/9 judge likely to help much to get me to the top of the pile?
Can't hurt. What would really help is if your current judge knows the CADC/feeder judge and is willing to make a phone call saying what an excellent clerk you. That will at a minimum get you out of the pile.
I appreciate that that's the ideal scenario, but how does this ever happen in practice when the feeders are all hiring 2+ years out? Are the people who land feeders for their second clerkships by getting their first judge to call just taking a gap in between?
It depends on the judge, but several judges (mainly those who are trying to become feeders) will proactively work to help their clerks get additional clerkships with feeders, even if the clerk hasn't begun work for them yet. Thapar did this before he became a feeder in his own right, Stras does it now, and I believe it's at least somewhat common practice on SDNY. Circuit judges will also often help their future clerks get district clerkships and vice versa, although this is more often limited to judges within the same state or circuit.
Is this more common among FedSoc judges? Mine's more an ACS type, and I'm not sure if it's less common among those. I've barely spoken to them other than the interview and getting the job, and I wouldn't even know how to respectfully broach the subject with them at this point. But I do notice a lot of my judge's clerks have ended up clerking for other high-profile judges nearby.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Mar 03, 2021 3:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 3:20 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:32 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 4:26 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:27 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:04 pm
If there are any clerks on here for CADC or any feeders on the district courts/SSCs—is a clerkship with a brand-name but not-really-feeder 2/9 judge likely to help much to get me to the top of the pile?
Can't hurt. What would really help is if your current judge knows the CADC/feeder judge and is willing to make a phone call saying what an excellent clerk you. That will at a minimum get you out of the pile.
I appreciate that that's the ideal scenario, but how does this ever happen in practice when the feeders are all hiring 2+ years out? Are the people who land feeders for their second clerkships by getting their first judge to call just taking a gap in between?
It depends on the judge, but several judges (mainly those who are trying to become feeders) will proactively work to help their clerks get additional clerkships with feeders, even if the clerk hasn't begun work for them yet. Thapar did this before he became a feeder in his own right, Stras does it now, and I believe it's at least somewhat common practice on SDNY. Circuit judges will also often help their future clerks get district clerkships and vice versa, although this is more often limited to judges within the same state or circuit.
Is this more common among FedSoc judges? Mine's more an ACS type, and I'm not sure if it's less common among those. I've barely spoken to them other than the interview and getting the job, and I wouldn't even know how to respectfully broach the subject with them at this point. But I do notice a lot of my judge's clerks have ended up clerking for other high-profile judges nearby.
My sense is that it's much more common for conservatives. For real liberal feeders you're really talking about a tiny handful of judges--Fletcher, Watford, Srinivasan, Pillard, Tatel, maybe one or two others. Srinivasan does take double-appellate clerks once in a while, not sure about the others. Career-wise I think it probably makes more sense to try to get a good SDNY, DDC, NDCA, NDIL, etc. judge, virtually all of whom double with COAs, than to really gun for a feeder COA, though you might as well apply.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 3:14 pm
Yeah you see this sometimes—off the top of my head, I think Katsas has maybe taken clerks from Ikuta, Stras, and Barrett recently, all of whom are probably best classified as “semi-feeders.” I also know of someone that leveraged a non-feeder Fed Soc judge to get a Stras clerkship. And on the district court level I know people have used e.g. Bibas or Owen to get Feinerman, who only hires appellate clerks. I think these people all applied during law school though. Double-COA is much more common for conservatives than for liberals.
Sykes and Ed Carnes are two more semi-feeders who do this; I know people who took clerkships with each of them with plans to use the connection to double-up on COA.

Also TIL that Judge Feinerman is a conservative...how did Obama's first appointee to his home district end up being someone who hires almost exclusively from super-elite FedSoc CoA judges?

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:35 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 3:14 pm
Yeah you see this sometimes—off the top of my head, I think Katsas has maybe taken clerks from Ikuta, Stras, and Barrett recently, all of whom are probably best classified as “semi-feeders.” I also know of someone that leveraged a non-feeder Fed Soc judge to get a Stras clerkship. And on the district court level I know people have used e.g. Bibas or Owen to get Feinerman, who only hires appellate clerks. I think these people all applied during law school though. Double-COA is much more common for conservatives than for liberals.
Sykes and Ed Carnes are two more semi-feeders who do this; I know people who took clerkships with each of them with plans to use the connection to double-up on COA.

Also TIL that Judge Feinerman is a conservative...how did Obama's first appointee to his home district end up being someone who hires almost exclusively from super-elite FedSoc CoA judges?
Feinerman is quite liberal, but he isn't that politically discriminate in hiring and has fed to Roberts, grades/writing uber alles. (Also, that was meant to say Owens, as in the CA9 liberal, not Owen, the CA5 conservative.)
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:35 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 3:14 pm
Yeah you see this sometimes—off the top of my head, I think Katsas has maybe taken clerks from Ikuta, Stras, and Barrett recently, all of whom are probably best classified as “semi-feeders.” I also know of someone that leveraged a non-feeder Fed Soc judge to get a Stras clerkship. And on the district court level I know people have used e.g. Bibas or Owen to get Feinerman, who only hires appellate clerks. I think these people all applied during law school though. Double-COA is much more common for conservatives than for liberals.
Sykes and Ed Carnes are two more semi-feeders who do this; I know people who took clerkships with each of them with plans to use the connection to double-up on COA.

Also TIL that Judge Feinerman is a conservative...how did Obama's first appointee to his home district end up being someone who hires almost exclusively from super-elite FedSoc CoA judges?
He's not really conservative as I understand it. He worked for the Obama campaign. He's just a Kennedy clerk who's connected on both sides.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:41 pm

Re: Biden's newly announced nominees, my school advises that we can email them (at their current job email address) a clerkship app with a very very carefully phrased cover letter ("I know you may not be considering hiring yet," etc. etc.).

This seems pretty aggressive/risky to me, but I wanted to get a sense if this is commonplace and/or opinions on this. Thoughts?

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:41 pm
Re: Biden's newly announced nominees, my school advises that we can email them (at their current job email address) a clerkship app with a very very carefully phrased cover letter ("I know you may not be considering hiring yet," etc. etc.).

This seems pretty aggressive/risky to me, but I wanted to get a sense if this is commonplace and/or opinions on this. Thoughts?
Obviously different judges may have different reactions, but I don’t see a problem with this. FWIW, I was soft hired for my clerkship before my judge was even confirmed.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:10 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:41 pm
Re: Biden's newly announced nominees, my school advises that we can email them (at their current job email address) a clerkship app with a very very carefully phrased cover letter ("I know you may not be considering hiring yet," etc. etc.).

This seems pretty aggressive/risky to me, but I wanted to get a sense if this is commonplace and/or opinions on this. Thoughts?
Obviously different judges may have different reactions, but I don’t see a problem with this. FWIW, I was soft hired for my clerkship before my judge was even confirmed.
I was interviewed before confirmation but was told no offer could be extended until (and pending) confirmation.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:59 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:10 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:41 pm
Re: Biden's newly announced nominees, my school advises that we can email them (at their current job email address) a clerkship app with a very very carefully phrased cover letter ("I know you may not be considering hiring yet," etc. etc.).

This seems pretty aggressive/risky to me, but I wanted to get a sense if this is commonplace and/or opinions on this. Thoughts?
Obviously different judges may have different reactions, but I don’t see a problem with this. FWIW, I was soft hired for my clerkship before my judge was even confirmed.
I was interviewed before confirmation but was told no offer could be extended until (and pending) confirmation.
Yeah this is a thing, especially for hiring for the first term, go for it.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:09 pm

Is there any sense of a standard turn around time between interview and callback? I had an interview three weeks ago and unfortunately I cannot stop staring at my phone.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:53 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:09 pm
Is there any sense of a standard turn around time between interview and callback? I had an interview three weeks ago and unfortunately I cannot stop staring at my phone.
You mean turnaround between a screener and full round of interviews? I interviewed with two judges who had a screener-type process and I was invited for full-round interviews the same day. 3 weeks isn't that out of the ordinary for full-round of interviews to an offer, but it is kind of a long time between a screener and full round of interviews.

But it makes sense if A) the judge is busy or B) the judge splits up their callbacks into a number of rounds (which a lot of judges interviewing now are doing) and wants to know how many slots they need to fill before sending out more invitations for full interviews.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:53 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:09 pm
Is there any sense of a standard turn around time between interview and callback? I had an interview three weeks ago and unfortunately I cannot stop staring at my phone.
You mean turnaround between a screener and full round of interviews? I interviewed with two judges who had a screener-type process and I was invited for full-round interviews the same day. 3 weeks isn't that out of the ordinary for full-round of interviews to an offer, but it is kind of a long time between a screener and full round of interviews.

But it makes sense if A) the judge is busy or B) the judge splits up their callbacks into a number of rounds (which a lot of judges interviewing now are doing) and wants to know how many slots they need to fill before sending out more invitations for full interviews.
Sorry, I meant turnaround from interview to offer/rejection call. Thank you for your reply!

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:58 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:53 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:09 pm
Is there any sense of a standard turn around time between interview and callback? I had an interview three weeks ago and unfortunately I cannot stop staring at my phone.
You mean turnaround between a screener and full round of interviews? I interviewed with two judges who had a screener-type process and I was invited for full-round interviews the same day. 3 weeks isn't that out of the ordinary for full-round of interviews to an offer, but it is kind of a long time between a screener and full round of interviews.

But it makes sense if A) the judge is busy or B) the judge splits up their callbacks into a number of rounds (which a lot of judges interviewing now are doing) and wants to know how many slots they need to fill before sending out more invitations for full interviews.
Sorry, I meant turnaround from interview to offer/rejection call. Thank you for your reply!
Oh, yeah that can vary. I had one judge get back to me with an offer two and a half weeks after the interview, one judge get back to me with a rejection the week after the interview, and one judge give me an offer on the spot at the end of the interview. 3 weeks is probably longer than average, but it's not out of the ordinary by any means. Judges who are interviewing now have little need to rush and also may have trouble scheduling interviews with other candidates (many law schools have their finals around now, some judges may be waiting until they can conduct some in-person interviews, and some judges may just be busy with work). Others may want to vet candidates more thoroughly before extending an offer--the judge that took the longest to get back to me reached out to a few of my references and I think gave my writing sample a closer look.

The wait is nerve-wracking for sure, but you aren't out of the running by any means.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:51 pm

I have an interview with a district judge who is taking people on a rolling basis (so I am not really going against anyone). I guess the common consensus is that the judge is going for fit. People throw that term around a lot, but are there any general guidelines about how to appear like you would be a good fit? Yeah, yeah it's idiosyncratic, but surely there is some sort of common ground about how to look like you'd fit in. I guess the offer is mine to lose, so I'm nervous I'm not going to appear like I'm a good fit.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:12 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:51 pm
I have an interview with a district judge who is taking people on a rolling basis (so I am not really going against anyone). I guess the common consensus is that the judge is going for fit. People throw that term around a lot, but are there any general guidelines about how to appear like you would be a good fit? Yeah, yeah it's idiosyncratic, but surely there is some sort of common ground about how to look like you'd fit in. I guess the offer is mine to lose, so I'm nervous I'm not going to appear like I'm a good fit.
From my interviews and offers it seems to be common interests, senses of humor, etc. In both my interviews that led to offers we talked local politics quite a bit and were able to joke appropriately with each other. (The clerks did most of the tough questions on actual law both times.)

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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