Clerks Taking Questions Forum

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lavarman84

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by lavarman84 » Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:51 pm
lavarman84 wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:20 pm
What sort of weirdo cares about undergrad grades?
I'd argue of all the things judges ding people on that is weird, undergrad grades is not really one of the super weird ones. If you're a judge in SDNY and you have to narrow down from 30 vanilla 3.85 CLS/NYU grads and one of them has shitty undergrad grades, that seems fair to cut them for. The nature of the process is that there are a lot of qualified applicants and the sorting process is more who to cut versus who do we want in. I'd much prefer people get dinged on undergrad grades versus general "vibes" which most often tends to advantage people in positions of privilege.
When you have people with at least four semesters of law school grades, it is absolutely silly to ding a person for their undergraduate grades. I'll never not think it weird that some judges care about that stuff. And yes, I'm well aware that there are plenty of weirdos on the bench.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:34 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:51 pm
lavarman84 wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:20 pm
What sort of weirdo cares about undergrad grades?
I'd argue of all the things judges ding people on that is weird, undergrad grades is not really one of the super weird ones. If you're a judge in SDNY and you have to narrow down from 30 vanilla 3.85 CLS/NYU grads and one of them has shitty undergrad grades, that seems fair to cut them for. The nature of the process is that there are a lot of qualified applicants and the sorting process is more who to cut versus who do we want in. I'd much prefer people get dinged on undergrad grades versus general "vibes" which most often tends to advantage people in positions of privilege.
I kind of agree with this, given that there are too many candidates and judges do just have to start drawing lines somewhere (full disclosure, I had decent though not exceptional UG grades - they wouldn't make me stand out but they probably wouldn't eliminate me).

Re the position of privilege point, my main concern would be eliminating non-privileged types of applicants who didn't have great preparation for UG/great support during UG, or who had unusually tough circumstances during UG (major illness, parent with major illness, homelessness, need to provide financial support to family, whatever). Obviously there are non-privileged applicants who don't fit any of these categories, and plenty of people in positions of privilege who got bad grades, but it's a blunt instrument.

That said, I don't think it's a *weird* thing to consider. I don't think it's *necessary,* but I don't think it's *weird* or *silly.* I do think that if it were me, I'd never use UG grades as a first/independent cut, and if a judge was considering them in narrowing down top candidates, I'd hope they would consider what else the applicant's materials suggest about their personal circumstances, but let's face it, clerk hiring is an inherently elitist process. And I think it's uncommon enough for a judge to care a lot about UG grades that there are other things to worry about in the application process first.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:58 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:37 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:14 pm
How much does a district clerkship help a COA clerkship applicant? I was planning on being more selective, but after not getting any responses thus far, I'm starting to panic and consider applying broadly.
Depends on where and with whom the clerkship is. In general the more selective, well-connected, and geographically close the district judge is, the more it will help you get appellate clerkships.
I think a D Ct helps more than the above response suggests. I'm not saying that getting a "flyover" clerkship will make feeder COAs around the country suddenly sit up and take notice. But I know a number of people who were plausible but not great COA candidates who struck out with COAs before getting a D Ct, and who got a COA after getting a D Ct. Many judges do find it compelling that 1) another judge thought this candidate was worth hiring and 2) the applicant will have a year of clerking experience before they start.

That said, I think it's especially helpful if the COA judge knows and respects the D Ct judge, which may or may not be a function of geography, connections, or selectivity. It's true that in practice, COA judges are more likely to know the D Ct judges in their jurisdiction, so I agree that geography is important. In particular, if the COA judge believes that the D Ct judge consistently turns out good, well-reasoned opinions, and manages their docket well, they likely have some expectation that the D Ct's clerks will get well-trained and be good applicants. (Similarly, if someone clerks for a mag judge that the D Ct judge respects, that is likely to help in an application to the D Ct judge.)

I mean sure, getting a particularly shiny/fancy D Ct clerkship isn't going to hurt, either. Just don't want people to think that's the only kind of D Ct clerkship that can help.

(This is all based on the premise that you're applying for the COA after getting hired at the D Ct, but that you haven't started at the D Ct yet, which is probably the most common scenario; if you have started clerking, then the COA judge can just call up your D Ct judge, which is incredibly helpful as long as your D Ct judge likes you and the COA doesn't think your judge is an idiot.)

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:44 pm

Question for those who moved to a "flyover" location without knowing anyone there: This might be a dumb question, but did you tell people you were a judicial clerk? I'll be looking into joining local groups and classes for social activities and getting to know other locals during the year I'm clerking. However, I don't know if it'd be a good idea to tell people I'm a clerk (people will ask why I moved/where I work since it's a small town). What's good etiquette here?

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:44 pm
Question for those who moved to a "flyover" location without knowing anyone there: This might be a dumb question, but did you tell people you were a judicial clerk? I'll be looking into joining local groups and classes for social activities and getting to know other locals during the year I'm clerking. However, I don't know if it'd be a good idea to tell people I'm a clerk (people will ask why I moved/where I work since it's a small town). What's good etiquette here?
Nobody outside of law knows what a judicial clerk is. Just say you’re a lawyer here to work for a judge for a year. But I don’t know why you wouldn’t want to say what you do? And anyway what’s the alternative (you’re right, people will ask, just like in big cities)?

Also note that to the residents of a place that’s significant enough to have a federal courthouse, their locale is likely not a “small town.” Of course if you’re with the CA6 judge in London, KY or something, yeah that’s small. But anything over 20,000, not really.

(I didn’t clerk in a small Middle American town but I grew up in one.)

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:44 pm
Question for those who moved to a "flyover" location without knowing anyone there: This might be a dumb question, but did you tell people you were a judicial clerk? I'll be looking into joining local groups and classes for social activities and getting to know other locals during the year I'm clerking. However, I don't know if it'd be a good idea to tell people I'm a clerk (people will ask why I moved/where I work since it's a small town). What's good etiquette here?
I'm not sure why you think it wouldn't be a good idea to tell people you're a clerk, but in any event, it would be a worse idea to lie or be sketchy or evasive. (The post above is right that most people won't have any real idea what a "judicial clerk" is.)

You scare quoted "flyover," which hopefully reflects that you don't share that view of where you're going and are going into this as a cool, once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to live in a totally different place, meet new people, and work at a cool job. Those sorts of opportunities are few and far between in life, and if you pitch it in a positive way like that, most people should be happy for you and think it's cool (or at least be indifferent).

Not saying this is your view at all, but if you are viewing it and were to frame it as, "I wouldn't be in your shitty town except for this gig and will be high tailing it out of here as soon as I can," then yeah, a lot of people probably wouldn't look too kindly on that. It may be factually more or less the same as the above, but the different emphasis matters a ton.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:45 am

Yeah, just say you’re working for a judge for a year. It’s not complicated.

If your concern is piercing the veil of the fiction that judges actually produce all their own work product or something, you can say that you’re a clerk (except that no non-lawyers will know what that is) or that you help the judge make decisions in legal cases. Just don’t say “oh yeah I wrote that order deciding for Plaintiff X” or something identifiable like that.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:36 pm

In your OSCAR profile, where it asks if you have prior legal or clerkship experience, what are you supposed to enter if you are currently a graduating 3L, but are applying for a second clerkship for 2 years out of Law School (at which point you will have both). Should your profile reflect your experience now - or at the prospective start of the clerkship?

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:32 am

Submitted an application recently (as a 3L), and noticed today a small bluebooking error tucked away in the middle of my writing sample. Given that chambers can see when an app has been updated, how big a deal is it at this point to update my application with the corrected sample?

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:36 pm
In your OSCAR profile, where it asks if you have prior legal or clerkship experience, what are you supposed to enter if you are currently a graduating 3L, but are applying for a second clerkship for 2 years out of Law School (at which point you will have both). Should your profile reflect your experience now - or at the prospective start of the clerkship?
I listed my experience now, but you better bet my first clerkship is mentioned in my cover letter! I didn't put it on my resume, but I know some people list it as "incoming" - would love to hear if folks are regularly doing that.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:30 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:36 pm
In your OSCAR profile, where it asks if you have prior legal or clerkship experience, what are you supposed to enter if you are currently a graduating 3L, but are applying for a second clerkship for 2 years out of Law School (at which point you will have both). Should your profile reflect your experience now - or at the prospective start of the clerkship?
I listed my experience now, but you better bet my first clerkship is mentioned in my cover letter! I didn't put it on my resume, but I know some people list it as "incoming" - would love to hear if folks are regularly doing that.
I would list all expected relevant legal jobs. If you're returning to your summer firm, put the dates of the summer experience and say something like (returning, accepted return offer, etc.). Definitely list the future clerkship too. As a clerk reviewing apps, this is helpful and it's how I did when I applied. Nice to have it all on one page.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:23 pm

Don’t assume a cover letter will be read. Put it on the resume.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jun 08, 2023 11:07 pm

S

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Aug 25, 2023 3:11 pm

I have kind of a question about clerkship timing. I am a rising 3L who just struck out on the plan. I definitely want to clerk at some point in my career and willing to wait and keep applying for years if necessary. My dilemma comes from deciding when to broaden my applications to avoid striking out entirely and missing out on clerking at all.

I have been applying only to COAs and desirable districts, but if push came to shove, I would rather clerk in a flyover district than never clerk at all. But if I wait too long to apply really broadly, I might end up putting myself in a position where I am applying as a third-year in BigLaw for clerkships that start in like 2029 or 2030. At some point, when I would be leaving to clerk as a midlevel, it feels like it would be too late.

At what point do you think I should just go all out on blitzing district courts across the country? Like after a year of practice?

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Aug 25, 2023 5:01 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2023 3:11 pm
I have kind of a question about clerkship timing. I am a rising 3L who just struck out on the plan. I definitely want to clerk at some point in my career and willing to wait and keep applying for years if necessary. My dilemma comes from deciding when to broaden my applications to avoid striking out entirely and missing out on clerking at all.

I have been applying only to COAs and desirable districts, but if push came to shove, I would rather clerk in a flyover district than never clerk at all. But if I wait too long to apply really broadly, I might end up putting myself in a position where I am applying as a third-year in BigLaw for clerkships that start in like 2029 or 2030. At some point, when I would be leaving to clerk as a midlevel, it feels like it would be too late.

At what point do you think I should just go all out on blitzing district courts across the country? Like after a year of practice?
I applied as a 3L and the summer after. I wanted to clerk and didn’t really care where. My only priorities were great writing experiences for good judges with strong reputations as professionals and mentors and good people. I did two flyover clerkships during my second and third years out of school, district and COA, and both were excellent experiences. Traded up to a top firm in NYC/DC following. Circuit prestige and location were mostly irrelevant for me because (1) I was going to be all in on the job anyway, (2) wasn’t moving a family around the country, (3) I think it’s fun to be somewhere new for a year. If you want to clerk then absolutely do it and blitz now and continue to until you snag one.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Aug 25, 2023 7:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2023 3:11 pm
I have kind of a question about clerkship timing. I am a rising 3L who just struck out on the plan. I definitely want to clerk at some point in my career and willing to wait and keep applying for years if necessary. My dilemma comes from deciding when to broaden my applications to avoid striking out entirely and missing out on clerking at all.

I have been applying only to COAs and desirable districts, but if push came to shove, I would rather clerk in a flyover district than never clerk at all. But if I wait too long to apply really broadly, I might end up putting myself in a position where I am applying as a third-year in BigLaw for clerkships that start in like 2029 or 2030. At some point, when I would be leaving to clerk as a midlevel, it feels like it would be too late.

At what point do you think I should just go all out on blitzing district courts across the country? Like after a year of practice?
I think, as the poster above notes, you should be applying to judges you’d be willing to work for, unless you have a strict geographic limitation. It doesn’t sound like you do, so I’d apply to any judge that sits in a place you’d be willing to live for a year. A lot of this also depends on your credentials though. If you’re a solid clerkship candidate (as in, credentials are in line with other SDNY/NDCA/DDC clerks), I think you can count on getting a few interviews for the competitive districts/COAs during your first year of practice. If you’re more of a “fringe” candidate, I’d start applying all over now.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Oct 22, 2023 3:45 pm

How do you/your judge view applications from transactional attorneys who want to use a clerkship to pivot to litigation?

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Oct 24, 2023 12:34 am

How likely is a COA (broad/any judge) from YS ➡️ competitive district crt ➡️ COA? Median grades, no law review, but interesting work and life experience, plus minority.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2023 12:34 am
How likely is a COA (broad/any judge) from YS ➡️ competitive district crt ➡️ COA? Median grades, no law review, but interesting work and life experience, plus minority.
Likely, you’re very competitive.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Oct 24, 2023 7:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:30 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2023 12:34 am
How likely is a COA (broad/any judge) from YS ➡️ competitive district crt ➡️ COA? Median grades, no law review, but interesting work and life experience, plus minority.
Likely, you’re very competitive.
Thanks. Were you CA clerk? Would it be worth shooting apps the 9?

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Oct 25, 2023 10:02 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2023 7:14 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:30 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2023 12:34 am
How likely is a COA (broad/any judge) from YS ➡️ competitive district crt ➡️ COA? Median grades, no law review, but interesting work and life experience, plus minority.
Likely, you’re very competitive.
Thanks. Were you CA clerk? Would it be worth shooting apps the 9?
I clerked on CA2. There are chambers there that would strongly consider you, so I assume ditto on CA9. Y/S + prior good district clerkship clerkship + URM (esp if AA and/or deprived upbringing frankly) is an app even like Lohier might bite on, though it would depend on your connections and recs. Don’t rule yourself out from anywhere.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Oct 25, 2023 12:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2023 10:02 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2023 7:14 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:30 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2023 12:34 am
How likely is a COA (broad/any judge) from YS ➡️ competitive district crt ➡️ COA? Median grades, no law review, but interesting work and life experience, plus minority.
Likely, you’re very competitive.
Thanks. Were you CA clerk? Would it be worth shooting apps the 9?
I clerked on CA2. There are chambers there that would strongly consider you, so I assume ditto on CA9. Y/S + prior good district clerkship clerkship + URM (esp if AA and/or deprived upbringing frankly) is an app even like Lohier might bite on, though it would depend on your connections and recs. Don’t rule yourself out from anywhere.
That’s really encouraging to hear, really appreciate it. Any tips on how a cover letter should differ?

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Oct 25, 2023 12:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2023 10:02 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2023 7:14 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:30 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2023 12:34 am
How likely is a COA (broad/any judge) from YS ➡️ competitive district crt ➡️ COA? Median grades, no law review, but interesting work and life experience, plus minority.
Likely, you’re very competitive.
Thanks. Were you CA clerk? Would it be worth shooting apps the 9?
I clerked on CA2. There are chambers there that would strongly consider you, so I assume ditto on CA9. Y/S + prior good district clerkship clerkship + URM (esp if AA and/or deprived upbringing frankly) is an app even like Lohier might bite on, though it would depend on your connections and recs. Don’t rule yourself out from anywhere.
Also, do you mind noting which judges come to mind?

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Oct 27, 2023 12:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2023 12:53 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2023 10:02 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2023 7:14 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:30 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2023 12:34 am
How likely is a COA (broad/any judge) from YS ➡️ competitive district crt ➡️ COA? Median grades, no law review, but interesting work and life experience, plus minority.
Likely, you’re very competitive.
Thanks. Were you CA clerk? Would it be worth shooting apps the 9?
I clerked on CA2. There are chambers there that would strongly consider you, so I assume ditto on CA9. Y/S + prior good district clerkship clerkship + URM (esp if AA and/or deprived upbringing frankly) is an app even like Lohier might bite on, though it would depend on your connections and recs. Don’t rule yourself out from anywhere.
Also, do you mind noting which judges come to mind?
Disagree that Lohier would bite on this app based on what I've seen, but a lot of the new Biden nominees would take you. Eunice Lee for instance doesn't seem to put much emphasis on grades from what I've gathered.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Oct 30, 2023 11:17 pm

Does TAing for a core doctrinal move the needle at all (besides the additional value-add of an improved rec)?

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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