Clerks Taking Questions Forum

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for the responses. Judges usually give applicants time to decide? Maybe I've just succumbed to clerkship office propaganda, but I thought it was expected that you must accept a clerkship if given an offer. Hence my anxiety with this situation.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for the responses. Judges usually give applicants time to decide? Maybe I've just succumbed to clerkship office propaganda, but I thought it was expected that you must accept a clerkship if given an offer. Hence my anxiety with this situation.

That’s historically the expectation, but it’s much less universal now. Both judges I clerked for gave me time to decide and turning them down would have been completely fine. Unfortunately that makes it even harder for applicants to parse all this.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for the responses. Judges usually give applicants time to decide? Maybe I've just succumbed to clerkship office propaganda, but I thought it was expected that you must accept a clerkship if given an offer. Hence my anxiety with this situation.

That’s historically the expectation, but it’s much less universal now. Both judges I clerked for gave me time to decide and turning them down would have been completely fine. Unfortunately that makes it even harder for applicants to parse all this.

I had the same experience. Clerkship offices HATE it when students think they can turn judges down, because their job is to place people, and they are terrified of offending judges. But this is ultimately not all that different from any other job offer situation. With a few exceptions who will give exploding offers, judges generally understand that applicants may need a day or two to think about making a commitment, especially if there are other interviews in the works and family considerations. My judge encouraged me to fly to another city for another interview the next day and consider that opportunity before deciding on his offer.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for the responses. Judges usually give applicants time to decide? Maybe I've just succumbed to clerkship office propaganda, but I thought it was expected that you must accept a clerkship if given an offer. Hence my anxiety with this situation.

That’s historically the expectation, but it’s much less universal now. Both judges I clerked for gave me time to decide and turning them down would have been completely fine. Unfortunately that makes it even harder for applicants to parse all this.

I had the same experience. Clerkship offices HATE it when students think they can turn judges down, because their job is to place people, and they are terrified of offending judges. But this is ultimately not all that different from any other job offer situation. With a few exceptions who will give exploding offers, judges generally understand that applicants may need a day or two to think about making a commitment, especially if there are other interviews in the works and family considerations. My judge encouraged me to fly to another city for another interview the next day and consider that opportunity before deciding on his offer.

I think the general advice is that you shouldn't turn a judge down unless you have an offer from another judge. I could understandably see a judge being a bit frustrated with a law student who rejects a clerkship offer without a good reason. That could maybe burn a bridge with your law school, particularly if the judge doesn't have especially strong ties there. But if you have a good reason--like, for example, an offer from another judge, few judges would be offended.

[Anonymous User]

I think the general advice is that you shouldn't turn a judge down unless you have an offer from another judge. I could understandably see a judge being a bit frustrated with a law student who rejects a clerkship offer without a good reason. That could maybe burn a bridge with your law school, particularly if the judge doesn't have especially strong ties there. But if you have a good reason--like, for example, an offer from another judge, few judges would be offended.

I don’t agree with this, at least to the extent that it implies the only good reason is an offer from another judge. If you interview with a judge and have a bad feeling and think that working for them go badly, you should feel free to turn the job down. If you get a non-judge offer you’d prefer, you should feel free to turn the judge down. Even if you just decide that after all you don’t want to move to [wherever] to clerk, you should feel free to turn the job down. Yes, ideally a candidate would have all their ducks in a row and have only applied to people and places they’d be happy to work for/in, but sometimes things change or people’s perspectives change, and you’re not required to spend a year doing something you’ve realized you don’t want to do, just so a judge isn’t offended and doesn’t take it out on your law school.

(I mean you don’t tell a judge that after the interview you decided you don’t want to work with them, but it’s a more than valid reason to decline an offer.)

[Anonymous User]

I think the general advice is that you shouldn't turn a judge down unless you have an offer from another judge. I could understandably see a judge being a bit frustrated with a law student who rejects a clerkship offer without a good reason. That could maybe burn a bridge with your law school, particularly if the judge doesn't have especially strong ties there. But if you have a good reason--like, for example, an offer from another judge, few judges would be offended.

I don’t agree with this, at least to the extent that it implies the only good reason is an offer from another judge. If you interview with a judge and have a bad feeling and think that working for them go badly, you should feel free to turn the job down. If you get a non-judge offer you’d prefer, you should feel free to turn the judge down. Even if you just decide that after all you don’t want to move to [wherever] to clerk, you should feel free to turn the job down. Yes, ideally a candidate would have all their ducks in a row and have only applied to people and places they’d be happy to work for/in, but sometimes things change or people’s perspectives change, and you’re not required to spend a year doing something you’ve realized you don’t want to do, just so a judge isn’t offended and doesn’t take it out on your law school.

(I mean you don’t tell a judge that after the interview you decided you don’t want to work with them, but it’s a more than valid reason to decline an offer.)

This is good advice. If anything good came from the Kozinski scandal, not wanting to clerk for a judge because you got a bad feeling from him/her during the interview should be a much more accepted choice now. But if you're going to turn a judge down you should give a reason other than "I didn't like you" (other job offer, family, etc.).

[Anonymous User]

I think the general advice is that you shouldn't turn a judge down unless you have an offer from another judge. I could understandably see a judge being a bit frustrated with a law student who rejects a clerkship offer without a good reason. That could maybe burn a bridge with your law school, particularly if the judge doesn't have especially strong ties there. But if you have a good reason--like, for example, an offer from another judge, few judges would be offended.

I don’t agree with this, at least to the extent that it implies the only good reason is an offer from another judge. If you interview with a judge and have a bad feeling and think that working for them go badly, you should feel free to turn the job down. If you get a non-judge offer you’d prefer, you should feel free to turn the judge down. Even if you just decide that after all you don’t want to move to [wherever] to clerk, you should feel free to turn the job down. Yes, ideally a candidate would have all their ducks in a row and have only applied to people and places they’d be happy to work for/in, but sometimes things change or people’s perspectives change, and you’re not required to spend a year doing something you’ve realized you don’t want to do, just so a judge isn’t offended and doesn’t take it out on your law school.

(I mean you don’t tell a judge that after the interview you decided you don’t want to work with them, but it’s a more than valid reason to decline an offer.)

Completely agree with this response! Also want to add that, while some judges do still make exploding offers/expect applicants to immediately accept, that expectation in and of itself is a red flag. I'm not saying every judge who makes exploding offers is a bad boss, but it definitely signals something about how they view the clerk-judge relationship. Most kind bosses would understand that applicants they have interviewed might need at least a day or two to think over a big move/career decision.

[Anonymous User]

I think the general advice is that you shouldn't turn a judge down unless you have an offer from another judge. I could understandably see a judge being a bit frustrated with a law student who rejects a clerkship offer without a good reason. That could maybe burn a bridge with your law school, particularly if the judge doesn't have especially strong ties there. But if you have a good reason--like, for example, an offer from another judge, few judges would be offended.

I don’t agree with this, at least to the extent that it implies the only good reason is an offer from another judge. If you interview with a judge and have a bad feeling and think that working for them go badly, you should feel free to turn the job down. If you get a non-judge offer you’d prefer, you should feel free to turn the judge down. Even if you just decide that after all you don’t want to move to [wherever] to clerk, you should feel free to turn the job down. Yes, ideally a candidate would have all their ducks in a row and have only applied to people and places they’d be happy to work for/in, but sometimes things change or people’s perspectives change, and you’re not required to spend a year doing something you’ve realized you don’t want to do, just so a judge isn’t offended and doesn’t take it out on your law school.

(I mean you don’t tell a judge that after the interview you decided you don’t want to work with them, but it’s a more than valid reason to decline an offer.)

This is good advice. If anything good came from the Kozinski scandal, not wanting to clerk for a judge because you got a bad feeling from him/her during the interview should be a much more accepted choice now. But if you're going to turn a judge down you should give a reason other than "I didn't like you" (other job offer, family, etc.).

OP here. In no way was I intending to imply that the only good reason not to accept an offer from a judge would be an offer from another judge. I said that's the "general" advice, but there are definitely exceptions.
If your goal is not to anger a judge (or your law school's clerkship office), then the pool of reasons to reject an offer is rather small. But if you get a bad vibe from a judge after interviewing, you definitely should not accept an offer with them. It may upset the judge, but that's a much better outcome than having a year working in a bad environment.

[Anonymous User]

Do I have any chance at a federal clerkship if I'm below median at HYS?

[Anonymous User]

Do I have any chance at a federal clerkship if I'm below median at HYS?

It depends.

[Anonymous User]

Do I have any chance at a federal clerkship if I'm below median at HYS?

It depends.

Strongly depends on how far below median you are, whether you are at H or YS, whether you are on law review, whether you are a URM/have connections/are FedSoc, and whether you would be willing to apply broadly and clerk for a district court judge in "flyover country."

[Anonymous User]

Do I have any chance at a federal clerkship if I'm below median at HYS?

It depends.

Strongly depends on how far below median you are, whether you are at H or YS, whether you are on law review, whether you are a URM/have connections/are FedSoc, and whether you would be willing to apply broadly and clerk for a district court judge in "flyover country."

Does being a URM actually matter that much? Or is it mostly on the margins/when a URM is otherwise equal to another candidate?

[Anonymous User]

Do I have any chance at a federal clerkship if I'm below median at HYS?

It depends.

Strongly depends on how far below median you are, whether you are at H or YS, whether you are on law review, whether you are a URM/have connections/are FedSoc, and whether you would be willing to apply broadly and clerk for a district court judge in "flyover country."

Does being a URM actually matter that much? Or is it mostly on the margins/when a URM is otherwise equal to another candidate?

It depends on the judge. Some judges (many of whom are themselves URMs) are very flexible. Others are not so flexible.

[Saami]

What's the downside of doing two district court clerkships besides boredom? Any upsides?

[Laserguy213]

Any thoughts on taking more corporate-y courses if shooting for CoA? Thinking of taking things like bankruptcy and secreg. I figure these might be valuable enough at appellate level, but just want to ensure my transcript doesn't get weird looks.

Also taking fedcourts, admin, etc.

[Anonymous User]

Any thoughts on taking more corporate-y courses if shooting for CoA? Thinking of taking things like bankruptcy and secreg. I figure these might be valuable enough at appellate level, but just want to ensure my transcript doesn't get weird looks.

Also taking fedcourts, admin, etc.

Perfectly normal

[Anonymous User]

What's the downside of doing two district court clerkships besides boredom? Any upsides?

No downsides, but I don’t really see the point unless you’re switching markets or something. If you think it’s the best decision in your situation though go for it.

[nixy]

What's the downside of doing two district court clerkships besides boredom? Any upsides?

No downsides, but I don’t really see the point unless you’re switching markets or something. If you think it’s the best decision in your situation though go for it.

Yeah, the only downside is looking like you don't want to practice (and 2 years clerking isn't that much of an issue, it's just doing 2 of the same kind can give that impression). The upsides are that it helps change markets, as already said, or if the second judge has some specific benefit to offer - they feed to feeders, or they have really specific connections that would help you, or even just that everyone raves about how great they are to work for.

[Anonymous User]

What qualifications does one need to be competitive for a NYCOA or NJ Supreme Court clerkship? I'm a CCN grad (if "CCN" is still an applicable acronym) with mildly above average grades (think 3.5 to 3.6 range), law review, one year work experience, and a federal district court clerkship in 2022-23. Also have local ties to New Jersey. Seems like this year will be particularly competitive for NJ given there's only four justices.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for the responses. Judges usually give applicants time to decide? Maybe I've just succumbed to clerkship office propaganda, but I thought it was expected that you must accept a clerkship if given an offer. Hence my anxiety with this situation.

I’ve clerked twice, and each time I told the judge I needed some time to decide after I was called with an offer. No one was offended.

[Anonymous User]

What qualifications does one need to be competitive for a NYCOA or NJ Supreme Court clerkship? I'm a CCN grad (if "CCN" is still an applicable acronym) with mildly above average grades (think 3.5 to 3.6 range), law review, one year work experience, and a federal district court clerkship in 2022-23. Also have local ties to New Jersey. Seems like this year will be particularly competitive for NJ given there's only four justices.

My friend clerking on the NJ Supreme Court has a very similar resume to you.

[Anonymous User]

I think the general advice is that you shouldn't turn a judge down unless you have an offer from another judge. I could understandably see a judge being a bit frustrated with a law student who rejects a clerkship offer without a good reason. That could maybe burn a bridge with your law school, particularly if the judge doesn't have especially strong ties there. But if you have a good reason--like, for example, an offer from another judge, few judges would be offended.

I don’t agree with this, at least to the extent that it implies the only good reason is an offer from another judge. If you interview with a judge and have a bad feeling and think that working for them go badly, you should feel free to turn the job down. If you get a non-judge offer you’d prefer, you should feel free to turn the judge down. Even if you just decide that after all you don’t want to move to [wherever] to clerk, you should feel free to turn the job down. Yes, ideally a candidate would have all their ducks in a row and have only applied to people and places they’d be happy to work for/in, but sometimes things change or people’s perspectives change, and you’re not required to spend a year doing something you’ve realized you don’t want to do, just so a judge isn’t offended and doesn’t take it out on your law school.

(I mean you don’t tell a judge that after the interview you decided you don’t want to work with them, but it’s a more than valid reason to decline an offer.)

I totally agree with this.

Also: Your clerkship office’s concern is not for your well-being— or even really for your specific career goals. You need to look out for yourself.

[Anonymous User]

3L graduating from CLS who recently decided to clerk but have little idea what I'm competitive for. Secondary journal/starting V5 in fall/3.84 gpa in mostly black letters/not much relationship with recommenders/profs in general though.

Do I just blind apply all over or can I be more targeted with my #s.

[Anonymous User]

What qualifications does one need to be competitive for a NYCOA or NJ Supreme Court clerkship? I'm a CCN grad (if "CCN" is still an applicable acronym) with mildly above average grades (think 3.5 to 3.6 range), law review, one year work experience, and a federal district court clerkship in 2022-23. Also have local ties to New Jersey. Seems like this year will be particularly competitive for NJ given there's only four justices.

My friend clerking on the NJ Supreme Court has a very similar resume to you.

Good to know! Does your friend like it?

[Anonymous User]

3L graduating from CLS who recently decided to clerk but have little idea what I'm competitive for. Secondary journal/starting V5 in fall/3.84 gpa in mostly black letters/not much relationship with recommenders/profs in general though.

Do I just blind apply all over or can I be more targeted with my #s.

What do you mean by more targeted?
You have great numbers, but for a lot of judges that is necessary but not sufficient. If you don't have good relationships with recommenders (meaning not just that you don't have someone making calls for you, but that your LoRs don't give a good sense of who you are), that can be a ding for a lot of judges. Theoretically your numbers could land you a great clerkship in just about any circuit or district, but without ties or good recommendations, it can be a bit of a crapshoot.