Clerks Taking Questions Forum

[lavarman84]

This may sound like a silly question -- but I will be clerking on a district court soon and I have a small nose ring. Is it acceptable to keep it in or should I take it out? Any advice appreciated.

I'd recommend talking to the current clerks to get their advice. This will almost certainly depend on the judge. My instinct would be take it out, but that's because I tend to be cautious.

[lavarman84]

What's the etiquette around letting judges know about a second clerkship? Last year I got a district court clerkship for 2023, and this week I got a circuit court clerkship for 2022. They don't overlap at all, but I was wondering if I should shoot my district judge (or her JA) an email letting her know that I'll be coming to her from another clerkship and not from a firm.

I don't think you need to do it, but if you want to say something, I'm sure your judge will be happy for you.

[Anonymous User]

Trying to decide if I should put in time and energy with CA9. Just need to have a frank conversation with my significant other about my dreams and aspirations going forward since marriage/settling down is on the horizon.

UG: top regional public school
LS: think Mich/Berkeley/Penn/UVA with lower latin honors
Secondary journal with moot court experience and writing honors
Clerking in district court in CA
Mix of public interest and Big Law experience
Very far left on ideology + diverse background

Changes in overall composition on the bench made me skeptical for the longest time. Wouldn't be opposed to being a counter clerk if I make a first pass.

[Anonymous User]

Trying to decide if I should put in time and energy with CA9. Just need to have a frank conversation with my significant other about my dreams and aspirations going forward since marriage/settling down is on the horizon.

UG: top regional public school
LS: think Mich/Berkeley/Penn/UVA with lower latin honors
Secondary journal with moot court experience and writing honors
Clerking in district court in CA
Mix of public interest and Big Law experience
Very far left on ideology + diverse background

Changes in overall composition on the bench made me skeptical for the longest time. Wouldn't be opposed to being a counter clerk if I make a first pass.

The CA9 judges I am familiar with probably would pass absent a compelling recommendation from professors and/or judges they know well. I would talk to your D. Ct. judge about whether they know any CA9 judges and would feel comfortable recommending you to anyone. I'd wait to have this conversation until January or so--it'll give you more time to impress the judge and I don't think there will be much CA9 movement between now and then. I am pretty sure you have already missed the window for a 2022-23 clerkship.

[Anonymous User]

Trying to decide if I should put in time and energy with CA9. Just need to have a frank conversation with my significant other about my dreams and aspirations going forward since marriage/settling down is on the horizon.

UG: top regional public school
LS: think Mich/Berkeley/Penn/UVA with lower latin honors
Secondary journal with moot court experience and writing honors
Clerking in district court in CA
Mix of public interest and Big Law experience
Very far left on ideology + diverse background

Changes in overall composition on the bench made me skeptical for the longest time. Wouldn't be opposed to being a counter clerk if I make a first pass.

The CA9 judges I am familiar with probably would pass absent a compelling recommendation from professors and/or judges they know well. I would talk to your D. Ct. judge about whether they know any CA9 judges and would feel comfortable recommending you to anyone. I'd wait to have this conversation until January or so--it'll give you more time to impress the judge and I don't think there will be much CA9 movement between now and then. I am pretty sure you have already missed the window for a 2022-23 clerkship.

Largely agreed. But you might've gotten a look in my judge's chambers largely because of the CA district court clerkship and background. It helps immeasurably if your judge is willing to make a call and has connections on the circuit, as many CA district court judges -- especially those on the older side who sit by designation frequently -- do. But really it's the grades. We were generally pretty strict on grades outside of HYSCCN (especially my judge's school) and the local law school. If you're Berkeley rather than MVP, your odds are IMO much higher (while still not being great), especially depending on who your prof recommenders are and whether any of them have pull on the circuit. I think it's worth a shot if you're flexible on ideology and geography, but the real problem is that it sounds like you might not be given the family situation. It is much much harder to get CA9 if you aren't willing to apply circuit-wide, and there are some excellent judges outside of SF/Pasadena.

Also, keep an eye out for new appointees as Biden begins filling CA9 seats, for whom your prior clerkship and work experience is extra valuable. It is a relatively common phenomenon to hire more experienced clerks in a judge's first batch before moving to the ordinary mostly-law-students hiring pattern.

I'd also think hard and do your research before applying to any judge for whom you'd be a counterclerk, which given your self-description would be most (but not all) of the R-appointees. I have had friends who are diehard PD types have very bad experiences as counterclerks with R appointed CA9 judges, even among those with moderate reputations. But I've also heard of really good experiences among liberal clerks with people like Miller, M. Smith, etc., who regularly hire non-fedsoc types. I can only speculate, but apart from the judge's temperament toward his clerks (the biggest factor) from outside observation the other primary difference seems to be whether people were willing to put aside ideology and just do the job of being a clerk and focus on improving their craft, vs. people who are in it to substantively advocate for what the law should be. If you're the latter, I'd personally probably not counterclerk in your shoes, but YMMV.

[Anonymous User]

Current CA9 clerk. I agree with the other two comments. With low latin honors grades, you'd be out of the running without an amazing professor/judge rec or two. I also agree that your district court judge is your best bet if they have connections to judges you'd be willing to clerk for. Though even then, to be frank, it would have to be an absolutely outstanding rec to overcome your grades. Not just "they are a good clerk I like," but "they are one of the best clerks I've had in years."

Are you thinking about senior judges? My general sense is they tend to be slightly less competitive, so worth looking into.

Also, I agree with doing your research re: counter-clerking. Along with the great points the poster above me made, I'd also add that I imagine there's going to be a big emotional difference in being the counter-clerk for a conservative who is thoughtful and writes good, well-reasoned opinions even if you sometimes disagree with their outcome, vs. one who is a straight up right-wing hack with a tendency to go on rants about the other side in their opinions. Seconding the Judge Miller rec as a conservative I'd be happy to work for, though I have no idea about his selectively level.

[Anonymous User]

Current CA9 clerk. I agree with the other two comments. With low latin honors grades, you'd be out of the running without an amazing professor/judge rec or two. I also agree that your district court judge is your best bet if they have connections to judges you'd be willing to clerk for. Though even then, to be frank, it would have to be an absolutely outstanding rec to overcome your grades. Not just "they are a good clerk I like," but "they are one of the best clerks I've had in years."

Are you thinking about senior judges? My general sense is they tend to be slightly less competitive, so worth looking into.

Also, I agree with doing your research re: counter-clerking. Along with the great points the poster above me made, I'd also add that I imagine there's going to be a big emotional difference in being the counter-clerk for a conservative who is thoughtful and writes good, well-reasoned opinions even if you sometimes disagree with their outcome, vs. one who is a straight up right-wing hack with a tendency to go on rants about the other side in their opinions. Seconding the Judge Miller rec as a conservative I'd be happy to work for, though I have no idea about his selectively level.

Judge Miller hires a good amount from Chicago, he’s politically indiscriminate but I think all his hires have been high (top ~8%) or highest (~valedictorian) honors

[Anonymous User]

Thanks all for the candid advice and thoughts!

[Anonymous User]

Chances?

UG: State school, 2.9
LS: 1L at TTT, 3.65, LR, FedSoc President; Transferred to lower T14, 3.7, LR, RA, and Lit clinic (+FedSoc E-Board)
Work: DOJ and D.Ct. Internships
Accepted a CoFC clerkship for 2022-23, what do you think my chances are for D.Ct. or COA in 2023 or 2024 if I apply broadly?

Thanks

[Anonymous User]

Chances?

UG: State school, 2.9
LS: 1L at TTT, 3.65, LR, FedSoc President; Transferred to lower T14, 3.7, LR, RA, and Lit clinic (+FedSoc E-Board)
Work: DOJ and D.Ct. Internships
Accepted a CoFC clerkship for 2022-23, what do you think my chances are for D.Ct. or COA in 2023 or 2024 if I apply broadly?

Thanks

Probably decent, Fed Soc, good T14 performance, and the CFC clerkship should help, but that's such an idiosyncratic application that idk if anyone will actually have a good sense until you apply

[LBJ's Hair]

Chances?

UG: State school, 2.9
LS: 1L at TTT, 3.65, LR, FedSoc President; Transferred to lower T14, 3.7, LR, RA, and Lit clinic (+FedSoc E-Board)
Work: DOJ and D.Ct. Internships
Accepted a CoFC clerkship for 2022-23, what do you think my chances are for D.Ct. or COA in 2023 or 2024 if I apply broadly?

Thanks

You should apply, but your resume is sorta confusing (CoFC, no BigLaw 2L SA). Spend some time telling the story in the cover letter.

[Anonymous User]

Chances?

UG: State school, 2.9
LS: 1L at TTT, 3.65, LR, FedSoc President; Transferred to lower T14, 3.7, LR, RA, and Lit clinic (+FedSoc E-Board)
Work: DOJ and D.Ct. Internships
Accepted a CoFC clerkship for 2022-23, what do you think my chances are for D.Ct. or COA in 2023 or 2024 if I apply broadly?

Thanks

You should apply, but your resume is sorta confusing (CoFC, no BigLaw 2L SA). Spend some time telling the story in the cover letter.

Thank you! Yeah I struck out at OCI with a 3.8 GPA, I think because I was deadset on litigation but who knows. And I took the CoFC clerkship because I didn't think it was much different from a D.Ct., besides the lack of criminal cases and jury trials which I don't mind because I prefer civil work and bench trials anyway. Also working for a judge in DC seems like a big plus and he offered me the job in my first interview so I couldn't really say no. My hope is that the complexity of the litigation and bench trial experience will sell well to a circuit judge, which is my ultimate goal.

[Anonymous User]

Chances?

UG: State school, 2.9
LS: 1L at TTT, 3.65, LR, FedSoc President; Transferred to lower T14, 3.7, LR, RA, and Lit clinic (+FedSoc E-Board)
Work: DOJ and D.Ct. Internships
Accepted a CoFC clerkship for 2022-23, what do you think my chances are for D.Ct. or COA in 2023 or 2024 if I apply broadly?

Thanks

Probably decent, Fed Soc, good T14 performance, and the CFC clerkship should help, but that's such an idiosyncratic application that idk if anyone will actually have a good sense until you apply

Thank you. Yeah, that's the feeling I have as well. It makes it very difficult to apply when I don't know which positions are realistic but I got one clerkship that way so that gives me hope lol

[Anonymous User]

Are there any fringe benefits of clerkships? Like my law school and one of my firms had group subscriptions to NYT and WSJ, anything like that? (This may or may not be related to NYT discovering that I am no longer a student...)

[Anonymous User]

Are there any fringe benefits of clerkships? Like my law school and one of my firms had group subscriptions to NYT and WSJ, anything like that? (This may or may not be related to NYT discovering that I am no longer a student...)

It depends on your clerkship/courthouse. I don't think an NYT subscription that you can use anywhere would be a thing, but courthouses often have subscriptions with news services for computers in their courthouses (i.e. you can use Bloomberg law on your work computer). Other fringe benefits depend on the courthouse. A lot of them will have a gym that you can access, some will have inexpensive cafeterias. You'll often be able to get a free metro/transit pass, as well.

[Anonymous User]

Are there any fringe benefits of clerkships? Like my law school and one of my firms had group subscriptions to NYT and WSJ, anything like that? (This may or may not be related to NYT discovering that I am no longer a student...)

Actually yes, the court maintains an organizational subscription to WaPo. I did not know this for my first two years clerking, so FYI

[Anonymous User]

Currently a 2L at a T50 law school in Southern California looking to see where you guys think I might end up in terms of clerkship opportunities for 2023-24.

Top 10% after 1L year
D.Ct. internship this past summer and another one this fall
Biglaw SA secured
LR staff member (planning on getting a board position)
Very strong recommendations from two professors very interconnected with judges
Highest scholarship award received to stay
Work experience prior to law school with a liberal senator
Top 2% from well known/highly regarded undergraduate school

Thanks!

[Anonymous User]

Are there any fringe benefits of clerkships? Like my law school and one of my firms had group subscriptions to NYT and WSJ, anything like that? (This may or may not be related to NYT discovering that I am no longer a student...)

Actually yes, the court maintains an organizational subscription to WaPo. I did not know this for my first two years clerking, so FYI

Anyone with a .gov or .mil email can get a free WaPo subscription

[Anonymous User]

Currently a 2L at a T50 law school in Southern California looking to see where you guys think I might end up in terms of clerkship opportunities for 2023-24.

Top 10% after 1L year
D.Ct. internship this past summer and another one this fall
Biglaw SA secured
LR staff member (planning on getting a board position)
Very strong recommendations from two professors very interconnected with judges
Highest scholarship award received to stay
Work experience prior to law school with a liberal senator
Top 2% from well known/highly regarded undergraduate school

Thanks!

Neither I nor my co-clerks would pull this from the pile (mid-size city D. Ct. and COA judges, both in 9th circuit but not CA), but you'd be a plausible candidate if a judge you externed for/professor who recommended you knew the judge and called them.

[Anonymous User]

Currently a 2L at a T50 law school in Southern California looking to see where you guys think I might end up in terms of clerkship opportunities for 2023-24.

Top 10% after 1L year
D.Ct. internship this past summer and another one this fall
Biglaw SA secured
LR staff member (planning on getting a board position)
Very strong recommendations from two professors very interconnected with judges
Highest scholarship award received to stay
Work experience prior to law school with a liberal senator
Top 2% from well known/highly regarded undergraduate school

Thanks!

Neither I nor my co-clerks would pull this from the pile (mid-size city D. Ct. and COA judges, both in 9th circuit but not CA), but you'd be a plausible candidate if a judge you externed for/professor who recommended you knew the judge and called them.

Also non-CA CA9: agreed with the first part but probably not the second. We were looking for top 5 or so (not %) outside most T14, and the judge got enough calls that we didn't really have to make exceptions to our normal criteria like this would be. (At least in our chambers, the clerks interviewed and reviewed the packets first even if someone came referred.) The only case I can see is if your T50 was local to our chambers and a recommender is someone the judge was close with or otherwise trusted quite a bit.

[Anonymous User]

Any advice from past/current clerks on the most efficient ways to review OSCAR apps? I'm new and feel like it's taking me forever to get through a bunch of apps without the credentials to realistically clerk (at least on my court) to find the needle in the haystack. The grades filter doesn't seem to work because most top schools do not calculate GPAs and the prior clerkship experience filter doesn't seem to work because many people don't check it if they have a future clerkship lined up. And as far as I can tell you can't open apps in new tabs on New OSCAR, which is incredibly poor design.

Do you break them down by school and find the top applicants for each school, just read them as they come in, or what? Are some of the filters actually useful and I'm missing it?

[Anonymous User]

How much does a call from a professor to chambers move the needle? (I understand this question may be chamber's specific.)

[Anonymous User]

When a judge's clerkship listing says that they only consider applicants in the Top XX% of their class, is that typically applied uniformly across applicants regardless of the caliber of their law school? Also, how do clerks reviewing applications determine whether Columbia grads fall within that percentile? Just guestimate based on grades and honors?

Separate question: Do judges value certain classes more than others as far as grades go?

[Anonymous User]

When a judge's clerkship listing says that they only consider applicants in the Top XX% of their class, is that typically applied uniformly across applicants regardless of the caliber of their law school? Also, how do clerks reviewing applications determine whether Columbia grads fall within that percentile? Just guestimate based on grades and honors?

Separate question: Do judges value certain classes more than others as far as grades go?

I get the impression that percentile on OSCAR is not very useful, and most judges just put one down because they are asked to.

As for CLS students, I am guessing the clerks either know the CLS grading system or know people who do.

Judges value black letter law courses more than seminars or "soft" classes. Some also value more difficult BLL classes like FedCourts or Admin. Each judge probably differs a bit on how they value different classes.

[Anonymous User]

Chances for EDPA or DNJ? I grew up in the Philadelphia/Lehigh Valley area, and was born in and currently live in NJ, so I have local ties to both.

- CCN
- Law review (ad board)
- 3.55 GPA (A- Fed Courts and B+ LegReg, if that's important)
- Currently work for nonprofit where I engage in litigation and policy advocacy
- TA'd/RA'd in law school, tutored 1Ls in legal writing, if any of that matters
- Have a few law review publications

Also, if I were to get a district court clerkship, would I have a shot at 3d Circuit? How would that even work? Would I need to complete the clerkship first so my judge could advocate for me, or would having an anticipated clerkship on my resume give it a bump even before I begin it?