Clerks Taking Questions Forum

[Anonymous User]

Would having an article published in a T14 flagship law review—and another in a T25 flagship—be enough to overcome having only somewhat above average grades for some 2d/3d Circuit judges? I'm currently doing an EDPA clerkship and have one year of work experience prior to that. I'm applying to academic fellowships/VAPs but if those don't pan out I'd like to try for a circuit court clerkship. I'm like Top 30% at a CCN.

[Anonymous User]

Would having an article published in a T14 flagship law review—and another in a T25 flagship—be enough to overcome having only somewhat above average grades for some 2d/3d Circuit judges? I'm currently doing an EDPA clerkship and have one year of work experience prior to that. I'm applying to academic fellowships/VAPs but if those don't pan out I'd like to try for a circuit court clerkship. I'm like Top 30% at a CCN.

Yes, absolutely, and you should be focusing on judges who have an academic background. In those circuits Bibas is the first name that comes to mind, although that's a difficult clerkship to get so I am not suggesting that you'd be competitive with him specifically. But--and especially so if you are willing to look outside of 2/3--there are certainly judges who came from academia who would have a particular interest in hiring a clerk interested in pursuing a career in academia. (I'm not sure if that describes you, but if you've published two articles two years into your career, you can certainly present as such.)

[Anonymous User]

Would having an article published in a T14 flagship law review—and another in a T25 flagship—be enough to overcome having only somewhat above average grades for some 2d/3d Circuit judges? I'm currently doing an EDPA clerkship and have one year of work experience prior to that. I'm applying to academic fellowships/VAPs but if those don't pan out I'd like to try for a circuit court clerkship. I'm like Top 30% at a CCN.

Article, not student comment? Yes. Calabresi is the obvious one that comes to mind, he likes future academics and sometimes compromises on grades for the right candidate with enough promise. But two published flagship articles would be a large gold star for most judges and should get you a look from many 2/3 judges, that's an extremely rare app.

One downside for your purposes is that CA2 tends to hire very far out.

[Anonymous User]

I have just received the unwelcome news that when you intern for a district judge, they often refuse to write you a recommendation letter for clerkships. I am a 2L trying to hook up a professional letter of rec (I already have two professors whose classes I took). If the judge refuses, what would be best: (1) a letter from a professor that I RA'd for, but did not take her class, (2) a public defender that I did work for 1L summer, but that I am not sure would write a compelling letter (not that he would criticize me, me and him just weren't that involved), or (3) just waiting for a year to apply to clerk, and then getting someone like my boss from my 2L summer or the professor that runs the clinic I take to do it?

[Anonymous User]

I have just received the unwelcome news that when you intern for a district judge, they often refuse to write you a recommendation letter for clerkships. I am a 2L trying to hook up a professional letter of rec (I already have two professors whose classes I took). If the judge refuses, what would be best: (1) a letter from a professor that I RA'd for, but did not take her class, (2) a public defender that I did work for 1L summer, but that I am not sure would write a compelling letter (not that he would criticize me, me and him just weren't that involved), or (3) just waiting for a year to apply to clerk, and then getting someone like my boss from my 2L summer or the professor that runs the clinic I take to do it?

Idk why this is unwelcome. Just get the professor you RA'd for—would probably write a better rec anyways since he/she is used to writing LORs for students.

[Anonymous User]

I have just received the unwelcome news that when you intern for a district judge, they often refuse to write you a recommendation letter for clerkships. I am a 2L trying to hook up a professional letter of rec (I already have two professors whose classes I took). If the judge refuses, what would be best: (1) a letter from a professor that I RA'd for, but did not take her class, (2) a public defender that I did work for 1L summer, but that I am not sure would write a compelling letter (not that he would criticize me, me and him just weren't that involved), or (3) just waiting for a year to apply to clerk, and then getting someone like my boss from my 2L summer or the professor that runs the clinic I take to do it?

For what it's worth, there's no consensus on how a judge would value a "professional" letter - some think it's a huge plus whereas others may wonder why you couldn't get three academic professors to write you letters. It sounds like the prof you RA'd for would be able to satisfy both sets of judges (while also speaking to your legal research and writing abilities, which is huge) so I would go with that. Also, FYI, some judges require three references as well as your recommenders so it's worth considering who you'll ask. For me, the references were where I got to add in my professional work contacts.

[Anonymous User]

I guess I just thought a federal judge would be a better recommender than a professor I RA'd for, but didn't take the class. If I can get the judge to do it (I plan on asking the clerks what the judge's policy is, not asking the judge directly), would that still be better? Like should I even ask? It sounds like you all take a favorable view of a split of "two professors whose classes you took and got As/built a relationship with, one you only RA'd for."

[Anonymous User]

I guess I just thought a federal judge would be a better recommender than a professor I RA'd for, but didn't take the class. If I can get the judge to do it (I plan on asking the clerks what the judge's policy is, not asking the judge directly), would that still be better? Like should I even ask? It sounds like you all take a favorable view of a split of "two professors whose classes you took and got As/built a relationship with, one you only RA'd for."

The real thing you would care about for the judge is if he will make calls. If this judge is well respected among his colleagues his calls will go a long way. His recommendation letter is less important. Also in my experience, Professors tend to write the best recommendation letters because they are used to it and know what to do. And RA letters tend to be especially useful because the Professor worked individually with the student in a relationship that is closer to the clerk-judge relationship then a large lecture class would be.

Honestly, I don't know your judge. Maybe you have a good rapport with him and he is just very nice. In most cases, as an intern, I would just ask to list him as a reference and then ask the clerks if they know if he'll call for interns. You don't need the letter.

[Anonymous User]

I guess I just thought a federal judge would be a better recommender than a professor I RA'd for, but didn't take the class. If I can get the judge to do it (I plan on asking the clerks what the judge's policy is, not asking the judge directly), would that still be better? Like should I even ask? It sounds like you all take a favorable view of a split of "two professors whose classes you took and got As/built a relationship with, one you only RA'd for."

I agree with this split. Judges recommending interns depends a lot on what you did and how closely you worked with the judge. If you did have a close relationship with the judge, you worked directly with them and you know they thought highly of your work, some kind of recommendation would be great, though I agree that the judge making calls or taking a call as a reference would probably be more appropriate/common. But a lot of interns work more with the clerks, don’t get a ton of interaction with the judge, and/or turn out work product that’s fine but that isn’t going to stand out. A recommendation in that context isn’t going to help just because it has a judge’s name attached to it.

I also agree that there isn’t really much need for a professional letter if you have 3 decent letters from profs. Many/most judges are fine with or even prefer academic letters.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a 3L with top 5% (maybe a little outside so say someone between 5% and 7.5%) and on Law Review at NYU/CLS. Struck out during the plan applying broadly. Now I am applying super broadly. Basically every circuit judge I know is hiring or posted and every district judge located in a city above 250k people. Still getting nothing. I was thinking of going back to the drawing board and trying to figure out what I did wrong, but I also wanted to ask if maybe the lack of traction is just because it is Fall, and I should be more patient before retooling? For what it's worth my clerkship office was surprised and said I had strong letters, so what I did differently is applying more broadly, used a more practice-oriented writing sample, and tried to slightly personalize my cover letters (but only if I had a compelling reason to do so like grew up in the city).

[Anonymous User]

I'm a 3L with top 5% (maybe a little outside so say someone between 5% and 7.5%) and on Law Review at NYU/CLS. Struck out during the plan applying broadly. Now I am applying super broadly. Basically every circuit judge I know is hiring or posted and every district judge located in a city above 250k people. Still getting nothing. I was thinking of going back to the drawing board and trying to figure out what I did wrong, but I also wanted to ask if maybe the lack of traction is just because it is Fall, and I should be more patient before retooling? For what it's worth my clerkship office was surprised and said I had strong letters, so what I did differently is applying more broadly, used a more practice-oriented writing sample, and tried to slightly personalize my cover letters (but only if I had a compelling reason to do so like grew up in the city).

This is a very slow time for law clerk hiring. It’ll pick up in the spring. I’m surprised by your performance on the Plan, you’ll get something eventually.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a 3L with top 5% (maybe a little outside so say someone between 5% and 7.5%) and on Law Review at NYU/CLS. Struck out during the plan applying broadly. Now I am applying super broadly. Basically every circuit judge I know is hiring or posted and every district judge located in a city above 250k people. Still getting nothing. I was thinking of going back to the drawing board and trying to figure out what I did wrong, but I also wanted to ask if maybe the lack of traction is just because it is Fall, and I should be more patient before retooling? For what it's worth my clerkship office was surprised and said I had strong letters, so what I did differently is applying more broadly, used a more practice-oriented writing sample, and tried to slightly personalize my cover letters (but only if I had a compelling reason to do so like grew up in the city).

This is a very slow time for law clerk hiring. It’ll pick up in the spring. I’m surprised by your performance on the Plan, you’ll get something eventually.

Thanks. Was surprised too, but remaining optimistic. Figure that is there is no reason to give up now.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a 3L with top 5% (maybe a little outside so say someone between 5% and 7.5%) and on Law Review at NYU/CLS. Struck out during the plan applying broadly. Now I am applying super broadly. Basically every circuit judge I know is hiring or posted and every district judge located in a city above 250k people. Still getting nothing. I was thinking of going back to the drawing board and trying to figure out what I did wrong, but I also wanted to ask if maybe the lack of traction is just because it is Fall, and I should be more patient before retooling? For what it's worth my clerkship office was surprised and said I had strong letters, so what I did differently is applying more broadly, used a more practice-oriented writing sample, and tried to slightly personalize my cover letters (but only if I had a compelling reason to do so like grew up in the city).

This is a very slow time for law clerk hiring. It’ll pick up in the spring. I’m surprised by your performance on the Plan, you’ll get something eventually.

Thanks. Was surprised too, but remaining optimistic. Figure that is there is no reason to give up now.

my only advice is to make your resume as interesting-looking as possible. It might not work for 99% of judges, but your super-interesting tidbit will find the right judge who will pull you out of a pile. That's how it always works when I'm reviewing resumes- I see a candidate wrote a comment that the judge will find interesting and put them on the "serious" pile if their stats are ok.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a 3L with top 5% (maybe a little outside so say someone between 5% and 7.5%) and on Law Review at NYU/CLS. Struck out during the plan applying broadly. Now I am applying super broadly. Basically every circuit judge I know is hiring or posted and every district judge located in a city above 250k people. Still getting nothing. I was thinking of going back to the drawing board and trying to figure out what I did wrong, but I also wanted to ask if maybe the lack of traction is just because it is Fall, and I should be more patient before retooling? For what it's worth my clerkship office was surprised and said I had strong letters, so what I did differently is applying more broadly, used a more practice-oriented writing sample, and tried to slightly personalize my cover letters (but only if I had a compelling reason to do so like grew up in the city).

This is a very slow time for law clerk hiring. It’ll pick up in the spring. I’m surprised by your performance on the Plan, you’ll get something eventually.

Thanks. Was surprised too, but remaining optimistic. Figure that is there is no reason to give up now.

my only advice is to make your resume as interesting-looking as possible. It might not work for 99% of judges, but your super-interesting tidbit will find the right judge who will pull you out of a pile. That's how it always works when I'm reviewing resumes- I see a candidate wrote a comment that the judge will find interesting and put them on the "serious" pile if their stats are ok.

Can you clarify what you mean by interest? Is this like an interests section? And by comment do you mean Note?

[Anonymous User]

I'm a 3L with top 5% (maybe a little outside so say someone between 5% and 7.5%) and on Law Review at NYU/CLS. Struck out during the plan applying broadly. Now I am applying super broadly. Basically every circuit judge I know is hiring or posted and every district judge located in a city above 250k people. Still getting nothing. I was thinking of going back to the drawing board and trying to figure out what I did wrong, but I also wanted to ask if maybe the lack of traction is just because it is Fall, and I should be more patient before retooling? For what it's worth my clerkship office was surprised and said I had strong letters, so what I did differently is applying more broadly, used a more practice-oriented writing sample, and tried to slightly personalize my cover letters (but only if I had a compelling reason to do so like grew up in the city).

This is a very slow time for law clerk hiring. It’ll pick up in the spring. I’m surprised by your performance on the Plan, you’ll get something eventually.

Thanks. Was surprised too, but remaining optimistic. Figure that is there is no reason to give up now.

my only advice is to make your resume as interesting-looking as possible. It might not work for 99% of judges, but your super-interesting tidbit will find the right judge who will pull you out of a pile. That's how it always works when I'm reviewing resumes- I see a candidate wrote a comment that the judge will find interesting and put them on the "serious" pile if their stats are ok.

This is super true. Got my Appeals clerkship with a judge I hadn't called and had expected to be out of my league grades-wise, and it turned out my app got picked out due to some of my particular activities and interests (not Fed Soc lol)

[Anonymous User]

What are you all doing about retirement savings? Will I need to just set up a separate Roth IRA? I want to avoid that since I have a 401k through my previous employer, but I'm guessing the Roth IRA is the only available option.

[Chubbyleaous]

Do you feel the Biden administration failed to enforce laws prohibiting the intimidation of SCOTUS Justices?

[nixy]

Do you feel the Biden administration failed to enforce laws prohibiting the intimidation of SCOTUS Justices?

L o fucking l. The justices don’t look very intimidated to me.

[Anonymous User]

What are you all doing about retirement savings? Will I need to just set up a separate Roth IRA? I want to avoid that since I have a 401k through my previous employer, but I'm guessing the Roth IRA is the only available option.

Yeah I'm just doing a Roth IRA this year. Your clerking salary will be under the $144K limit but the limits are set by calendar year, so if you came from/are going back to Biglaw, you could end up over $144K for one or both years.

[Chubbyleaous]

In this context, above, to Nixy

July 2, hours after the Supreme Court’s chief security officer asked state officials to enforce laws prohibiting protests outside the homes of justices, a group of protesters read the First Amendment out loud in an impromptu march past Brett Kavanaugh’s house.

[nixy]

In this context, above, to Nixy

July 2, hours after the Supreme Court’s chief security officer asked state officials to enforce laws prohibiting protests outside the homes of justices, a group of protesters read the First Amendment out loud in an impromptu march past Brett Kavanaugh’s house.

Yeah I don't care. Stop bringing up irrelevant politics.

[Chubbyleaous]

The "Picketing or Parading" law states that anyone "with the intent of interfering with, obstructing, or impeding the administration of justice, or with the intent of influencing any judge, juror, witness, or court officer in the discharge of his duty," cannot picket near a judge's residence. A conviction on this charge could come with up to a year in prison, a fine, or both.

I was trying to get a feel for what the Clerks were hearing about this topic. The thread is Clerks Taking Questions. Maybe there's a SCOTUS clerk or 2 on this forum.

Shame we have to be reluctant to discuss topics in the news.

Any controversial SCOTUS decision coming down soon, and there will be, and I'm to believe we must somehow redact our politics from any mention of the case?

Maybe a Moderator could tell me if there's a ban on mentioning the above Picketing or Parading law in the context of asking the Clerks what they're hearing about this.

[Chubbyleaous]

Best and Worst Judges to Clerk For

Nixy, if you don't want to see politics on TLS, please avoid the above TLS thread.

[nealric]

Above poster has been banned as probable alt of previously banned poster.

[Anonymous User]

How much does personalized, enthusiastic outreach from a Big Name professor and good LORs compensate for other application deficits?