Clerks Taking Questions Forum

[Anonymous User]

What is the true value of a feeder/semi-feeder clerkship on its own? I've been told by my professors that I'm competitive for feeder judges and that they will help me make a big push for those judges. However, I don't really have SCOTUS ambitions—I obviously think it would be cool but am not willing to kill myself going for something that is unlikely to happen, especially because I am liberal.

So, I'm wondering if the benefits of clerking for an especially "prestigious judge" are really worth me focusing my energies on assembling a really killer application by pushing for feeders when I can kick back a little more and presumably still get a clerkship that will give me a great experience. Are feeders generally intrinsically a better, more interesting clerkship experience (e.g., because feeder judges are especially smart or something) or is there a very helpful signaling value? My goals are of the impact lit/elite government/litigation boutique variety.

Lol I don't think feeders are intrinsically a "better" clerkship experience (among feeders and among all judges, the experience is hugely variable). Ideology, connections, and luck are at least parts of what makes a judge a feeder at this point, it's not that feeders are like the smartest of the pack or something. But apart from signaling value, I would say network aspects of clerking for a feeder/semi-feeder are hugely helpful for afterwards even if you don't have SCOTUS ambitions -- both the judge's own network and the clerk alumni network.

[Anonymous User]

What is the true value of a feeder/semi-feeder clerkship on its own? I've been told by my professors that I'm competitive for feeder judges and that they will help me make a big push for those judges. However, I don't really have SCOTUS ambitions—I obviously think it would be cool but am not willing to kill myself going for something that is unlikely to happen, especially because I am liberal.

So, I'm wondering if the benefits of clerking for an especially "prestigious judge" are really worth me focusing my energies on assembling a really killer application by pushing for feeders when I can kick back a little more and presumably still get a clerkship that will give me a great experience. Are feeders generally intrinsically a better, more interesting clerkship experience (e.g., because feeder judges are especially smart or something) or is there a very helpful signaling value? My goals are of the impact lit/elite government/litigation boutique variety.

I could've written this comment when I was a 2L, and ended up with a semi-feeder. I think the main benefits are (1) a somewhat fancier network, (2) respect among the sorts of elite litigators who know all the judges and the feeders, who work at the sorts of places you're targeting, and (3) long-term prospects of unicorn jobs like the judiciary and academia, because of 1 and 2, if that's something you're into. It's definitely not true that feeders are all good bosses--Kozinski, Reinhardt, lol--or the smartest judges, though they obviously tend to be very smart. Feeding depends a lot on social connections to the justices, hiring practices, and ideology, not just who's smart and well-credentialed--Marsha Berzon, Frank Easterbrook, Gerard Lynch, and Diane Wood aren't feeders, but Bill Pryor and Amul Thapar are.

[lavarman84]

What is the true value of a feeder/semi-feeder clerkship on its own? I've been told by my professors that I'm competitive for feeder judges and that they will help me make a big push for those judges. However, I don't really have SCOTUS ambitions—I obviously think it would be cool but am not willing to kill myself going for something that is unlikely to happen, especially because I am liberal.

So, I'm wondering if the benefits of clerking for an especially "prestigious judge" are really worth me focusing my energies on assembling a really killer application by pushing for feeders when I can kick back a little more and presumably still get a clerkship that will give me a great experience. Are feeders generally intrinsically a better, more interesting clerkship experience (e.g., because feeder judges are especially smart or something) or is there a very helpful signaling value? My goals are of the impact lit/elite government/litigation boutique variety.

On some level, I understand this. But it's such a snobby profession that I'd accrue every gold star you can get if I were in your shoes. You never know what door it might open. But I also don't know your career goals/dreams.

[Anonymous User]

Is it ethical to interview for a two-year clerkship knowing that I plan on applying to certain jobs that would start a little over a year into the clerkship?

[Anonymous User]

Is it ethical to interview for a two-year clerkship knowing that I plan on applying to certain jobs that would start a little over a year into the clerkship?

Don't do this. You don't take a two year clerkship with the plan to leave a year into it. This would be burning a lot of bridges and is a complete faux pas. These certain job(s) won't be around for another year?

[Anonymous User]

Is it ethical to interview for a two-year clerkship knowing that I plan on applying to certain jobs that would start a little over a year into the clerkship?

Don't do this. You don't take a two year clerkship with the plan to leave a year into it. This would be burning a lot of bridges and is a complete faux pas. These certain job(s) won't be around for another year?

They'd be academic fellowships/VAPs, which would definitely be around another year. However, I've been advised to apply to them every year I can until I get one, not to wait for the "right time," since they're so hard to get anyways. I don't really care about burning a bridge with the judge, if that's what you mean. I just want a clerkship on my CV for a specific reason I don't feel like going into details about.

[Anonymous User]

Is it ethical to interview for a two-year clerkship knowing that I plan on applying to certain jobs that would start a little over a year into the clerkship?

I don’t think it’s really unethical just to interview, since you may not get the clerkship or the jobs that start halfway through. But I don’t think I’d accept the clerkship and still plan to apply for those jobs. I think if you got offered the clerkship you could ask the judge about whether there would be any flexibility if you applied for and got one of said jobs, or you could put off applying for those jobs for another year. But I wouldn’t accept and then halfway through spring it on the judge that you’ve been applying for those jobs and want to leave. If you try to clear it ahead of time the judge it’s true that the judge might just say that’s not an option, and then you’d have a tough decision, but that seems the most ethical way to handle it to me.

(Why can’t you put off applying for the other jobs for a year if you get a 2-year clerkship? Is it that you just don’t want to do a 2-year clerkship, because I can’t really think of jobs that you’d know about now that are only open that one year and then never again? The only sort of reasonable thing I can think of is if you have only one more year of eligibility for DOJ honors and so your last chance to apply is for jobs partway through this clerkship. If it is really something like that, then what I said above - I’d interview but clear it all ahead of time. In fact, it might even be best to raise it in an interview - again, it might put you out of the running, but it’s the cleanest way to handle things, and you never know, the judge might be willing to be flexible. If it were something like DOJ honors, for instance, you’d know if you got the job well before the end of the first year of the clerkship, so the judge would have a good chunk of time to find someone to take the second half. But this would only apply to the last year of your eligibility.)

Edit in light of the posts above mine: I’m not sure applying for fellowships/VAPs every year is really necessary if you’re in a 2-year position like a clerkship. But yeah, I think you could go to the interview but that you’d need to front everything. If you’re not willing to do that, then don’t go to the interview (you may not care about burning bridges with a judge, but that seems a little blase for someone who does want the clerkship on their cv.)

[lavarman84]

They'd be academic fellowships/VAPs, which would definitely be around another year. However, I've been advised to apply to them every year I can until I get one, not to wait for the "right time," since they're so hard to get anyways. I don't really care about burning a bridge with the judge, if that's what you mean. I just want a clerkship on my CV for a specific reason I don't feel like going into details about.

Personally, I think this is shitty behavior. But I'm not in academia, so you wouldn't be seeking a job from me. Just make sure you won't need a reference from your judge to help you get the job in academia.

[Anonymous User]

How should I read into the fact it has been over a month since I conducted a screener interview for COA without having heard back? TBF I have heard this judge moves slow but still

[lavarman84]

How should I read into the fact it has been over a month since I conducted a screener interview for COA without having heard back? TBF I have heard this judge moves slow but still

It's not great, but if your judge is known for moving slow, it's not a terrible omen. My COA judge offered me six to eight weeks after the interview.

[Anonymous User]

Is it ethical to interview for a two-year clerkship knowing that I plan on applying to certain jobs that would start a little over a year into the clerkship?

Don't do this. You don't take a two year clerkship with the plan to leave a year into it. This would be burning a lot of bridges and is a complete faux pas. These certain job(s) won't be around for another year?

They'd be academic fellowships/VAPs, which would definitely be around another year. However, I've been advised to apply to them every year I can until I get one, not to wait for the "right time," since they're so hard to get anyways. I don't really care about burning a bridge with the judge, if that's what you mean. I just want a clerkship on my CV for a specific reason I don't feel like going into details about.

I'd be hesitant just because VAPs are such shit positions -- they basically take advantage of you for a year or two for cheap labor and then move on to the next cheap person rather than helping you build toward tenure. If your fallback plan includes practicing (or eventually teaching) in the district or circuit where the judge is based, I would be cautious just because the legal community is small and people talk and academics tend to be tuned into judges in a different way than practitioners.

[Anonymous User]

How do you update a paper application? The judge that I clerk for wants to serve as a reference, and I have a new writing sample. Should I just mail it in with a letter saying I’d still like to be considered for the position?

[Anonymous User]

Wondering what my chances for a federal clerkship might be in the future. I am below median at my T25 (think 3.2 on a 3.3 curve), but am on LR and moot court. Worked big law last summer at a V50, and will be at a V10 this coming summer. Have had some other legal internships through the academic year, but none in chambers. I plan on asking a former judge who has taken a liking to me and whose class I have taken and another professor for recommendation letters, but not sure who else at this point. I have heard that my resume is interesting, and my undergraduate and graduate GPAs were excellent. Nothing else really special about me, and am not a veteran/URM.

I am concerned about how much my GPA will hold me back. What should I do to own it?

[Anonymous User]

Wondering what my chances for a federal clerkship might be in the future. I am below median at my T25 (think 3.2 on a 3.3 curve), but am on LR and moot court. Worked big law last summer at a V50, and will be at a V10 this coming summer. Have had some other legal internships through the academic year, but none in chambers. I plan on asking a former judge who has taken a liking to me and whose class I have taken and another professor for recommendation letters, but not sure who else at this point. I have heard that my resume is interesting, and my undergraduate and graduate GPAs were excellent. Nothing else really special about me, and am not a veteran/URM.

I am concerned about how much my GPA will hold me back. What should I do to own it?

For Article III, near-zero unless you have a strong connection or something similar, sorry. There's not much you can do to overcome a sub-median GPA at a T25 beyond bringing your GPA up. You may consider alternatives like clerking for a federal magistrate or a state judge, which can also be good experiences, but SSCs are also probably out.

[Anonymous User]

I think you may actually have a shot at a district court. The fact that you are on law review, moot court, and are working at a V10 despite your GPA suggest to me that you are probably pretty bright, and likely a good interviewer. Get the GPA up, but I think you may have a shot if you apply widely.

[Anonymous User]

Wondering what my chances for a federal clerkship might be in the future. I am below median at my T25 (think 3.2 on a 3.3 curve), but am on LR and moot court. Worked big law last summer at a V50, and will be at a V10 this coming summer. Have had some other legal internships through the academic year, but none in chambers. I plan on asking a former judge who has taken a liking to me and whose class I have taken and another professor for recommendation letters, but not sure who else at this point. I have heard that my resume is interesting, and my undergraduate and graduate GPAs were excellent. Nothing else really special about me, and am not a veteran/URM.

I am concerned about how much my GPA will hold me back. What should I do to own it?

For Article III, near-zero unless you have a strong connection or something similar, sorry. There's not much you can do to overcome a sub-median GPA at a T25 beyond bringing your GPA up. You may consider alternatives like clerking for a federal magistrate or a state judge, which can also be good experiences, but SSCs are also probably out.

This advice is only accurate if you want to clerk immediately after law school. If you are going to a major market, figure out which judges in your district prefer to hire people a few years out (there are more of these judges than TLS chatter would suggest). Do your best to get substantive assignments at your firm that will allow you to build up a base of written work product--getting a clerkship with an "experienced required" judge is often about convincing the judge you will be able to immediately step into a busy docket with minimal training, and write at a high volume without much editing. Go to bar events in your city and try to meet your target judges' former clerks (search "Law Clerk to the Hon. John Doe" on Google and it'll pull up past clerks' LinkedIn pages and firm bios).

As a current clerk to a judge who fits this description, you'd be surprised how little weight law school grades are given when we're evaluating resumes of people 3-5 years into practice. Good grades still help but it becomes more about who you know and what you've done since school.

[Anonymous User]

Is it normal for a judge to send someone a rejection by mail even when they didn't interview? Is this judge mailing hundreds of rejections?

[Anonymous User]

Is it normal for a judge to send someone a rejection by mail even when they didn't interview? Is this judge mailing hundreds of rejections?

Only if it is Bill Pryor. I believe he sends them to everyone (including me).

[Anonymous User]

Is it normal for a judge to send someone a rejection by mail even when they didn't interview? Is this judge mailing hundreds of rejections?

Only if it is Bill Pryor. I believe he sends them to everyone (including me).

Judge Christen also sends out rejection letters to applicants she did not interview (including me).

[Anonymous User]

Is it normal for a judge to send someone a rejection by mail even when they didn't interview? Is this judge mailing hundreds of rejections?

Only if it is Bill Pryor. I believe he sends them to everyone (including me).

This was Quattlebaum.

[Anonymous User]

Is it normal for a judge to send someone a rejection by mail even when they didn't interview? Is this judge mailing hundreds of rejections?

Only if it is Bill Pryor. I believe he sends them to everyone (including me).

This was Quattlebaum.

I have been proven wrong lol. I thought Pryor was the only one who did it. Seems like a lot of work, so I am surprised multiple judges do it.

[Anonymous User]

Is it normal for a judge to send someone a rejection by mail even when they didn't interview? Is this judge mailing hundreds of rejections?

Only if it is Bill Pryor. I believe he sends them to everyone (including me).

This was Quattlebaum.

I have been proven wrong lol. I thought Pryor was the only one who did it. Seems like a lot of work, so I am surprised multiple judges do it.

I had a handful of judges do it out of about 100 applications. Randy Smith, Ferdinand Fernandez, and Amalya Kearse are the 3 I remember. It may be more common among older judges.

[Anonymous User]

I interviewed for a clerkship in February that would require me to move my family 6 hours away. The judge seemed great though, and said he'd get back to me in two weeks. Still heard nothing.

Today, I got an offer to interview for a clerkship in my hometown (1.5 hours away), which I'd greatly prefer because it's less of a move and my son would be near his grandparents for a year.

I'm worried, however, about the small possibility that I get a call between now and the interview next week from the first judge with an offer. The clerkship terms don't overlap (the former is 2023-24 and the latter is 2022-23), so technically I could do both. However, I don't really want to do two district court clerkships.

Do you all think it'd make sense to withdraw my application from the first one? I guess it'd suck then if I didn't get the one I'm about to interview for, but I don't even know what I'd say if the first judge called me up and gave me an offer sometime over the next week. I'd be so conflicted/confused.

[Anonymous User]

I interviewed for a clerkship in February that would require me to move my family 6 hours away. The judge seemed great though, and said he'd get back to me in two weeks. Still heard nothing.

Today, I got an offer to interview for a clerkship in my hometown (1.5 hours away), which I'd greatly prefer because it's less of a move and my son would be near his grandparents for a year.

I'm worried, however, about the small possibility that I get a call between now and the interview next week from the first judge with an offer. The clerkship terms don't overlap (the former is 2023-24 and the latter is 2022-23), so technically I could do both. However, I don't really want to do two district court clerkships.

Do you all think it'd make sense to withdraw my application from the first one? I guess it'd suck then if I didn't get the one I'm about to interview for, but I don't even know what I'd say if the first judge called me up and gave me an offer sometime over the next week. I'd be so conflicted/confused.

Very few judges do exploding offers. If the judge you interviewed with first reaches out, tell him that you need some time to think and ask for a week's time. Then tell the judge that you're going to interview with that you have already received an offer but that they are your top choice and that you have until X to give the other judge an answer. The second judge will either proceed with the interview or tell you that they cannot make a decision on that timetable and that you should accept the offer from the first judge.

Do not call to withdraw your application just because you received an interview offer. It will come off as presumptuous and could burn whatever bridge you have with that judge. You do not have to tell the judges that the clerkships would be for separate years. But you could; I think most district judges would understand you not wanting to be locked into back-to-back district court clerkships.

[nixy]

I mean you can absolutely call to withdraw without looking presumptuous, you just wouldn’t say it was because you got an interview. You could simply say that you appreciate the interview but your plans have changed.

That said, there's no need to withdraw just because you might get an offer before this second interview. If you’ve decided you don’t want to move 6 hours away and wouldn’t take the first clerkship even if offered, then yes, definitely withdraw. But otherwise, I agree that you can ask for time and let the second judge know as described above. If the first judge wants an immediate answer (and I agree that’s less likely) you just have to decide ahead of time whether you want the sure less good thing or the chance at the better thing.