Clerks Taking Questions Forum

[nixy]

Hi all. How much more valuable is a state supreme court clerkship likely to be than a state court of appeals clerkship? Particularly in the many-years-down-the-road timeframe.

Many years down the road, what you do after will be much more important than which court you clerked for.

Otherwise it’s kind of hard to answer this in a vacuum. All else equal, SSC looks better because this profession is obsessed with prestige. But are you planning to practice in this market for the indefinite future? Who will you be clerking for and what do they bring to the table? Some state COA judges are really connected. Some state COA judges go on to be SSC justices. Some are better mentors than some SSC justices.

Again, in a vacuum and considering nothing else, a SSC clerkship looks better. But it’s hard to quantify what benefit that will bring. Is there a reason you want to take the COA over the SSC? Are you actually choosing between two offers? I wouldn’t pass on a COA for the hope of a SSC unless you’re willing to risk having neither.

[EddieM]

Hi all. How much more valuable is a state supreme court clerkship likely to be than a state court of appeals clerkship? Particularly in the many-years-down-the-road timeframe.

Many years down the road, what you do after will be much more important than which court you clerked for.

Otherwise it’s kind of hard to answer this in a vacuum. All else equal, SSC looks better because this profession is obsessed with prestige. But are you planning to practice in this market for the indefinite future? Who will you be clerking for and what do they bring to the table? Some state COA judges are really connected. Some state COA judges go on to be SSC justices. Some are better mentors than some SSC justices.

Again, in a vacuum and considering nothing else, a SSC clerkship looks better. But it’s hard to quantify what benefit that will bring. Is there a reason you want to take the COA over the SSC? Are you actually choosing between two offers? I wouldn’t pass on a COA for the hope of a SSC unless you’re willing to risk having neither.

Thanks Nixy. This is hypothetical. I'm considering applying to COAs in addition to SSC (and federal options) this upcoming 2L summer, to try to avoid geographic dislocation. Doing state COA instead of SSC could potentially mean not having to move a few hours away for a year or two. I'm not pursuing very prestigious work--my main reason for considering clerking is about the potential long-term benefits that would come in handy if I were to unexpectedly want to change to a more prestige-driven field someday.

[nixy]

Hi all. How much more valuable is a state supreme court clerkship likely to be than a state court of appeals clerkship? Particularly in the many-years-down-the-road timeframe.

Many years down the road, what you do after will be much more important than which court you clerked for.

Otherwise it’s kind of hard to answer this in a vacuum. All else equal, SSC looks better because this profession is obsessed with prestige. But are you planning to practice in this market for the indefinite future? Who will you be clerking for and what do they bring to the table? Some state COA judges are really connected. Some state COA judges go on to be SSC justices. Some are better mentors than some SSC justices.

Again, in a vacuum and considering nothing else, a SSC clerkship looks better. But it’s hard to quantify what benefit that will bring. Is there a reason you want to take the COA over the SSC? Are you actually choosing between two offers? I wouldn’t pass on a COA for the hope of a SSC unless you’re willing to risk having neither.

Thanks Nixy. This is hypothetical. I'm considering applying to COAs in addition to SSC (and federal options) this upcoming 2L summer, to try to avoid geographic dislocation. Doing state COA instead of SSC could potentially mean not having to move a few hours away for a year or two. I'm not pursuing very prestigious work--my main reason for considering clerking is about the potential long-term benefits that would come in handy if I were to unexpectedly want to change to a more prestige-driven field someday.

So I think that the long-term benefits from doing a state COA are what you make of it, rather than that having it on your resume is going to make a huge difference. If you clerk for a well-respected judge who's connected in the community where you want to practice, that helps regardless of what level court you clerk at. But I can't really remember seeing a lot of lawyer bios hyping someone's state COA clerkship - I don't see it referenced in biglaw bios, or judge bios. That may be correlation more than anything, that most state COA clerks don't end up in positions where the public is reading their bios.

The people I know who've done state COA clerkships mostly ended up further along the trajectory they were already on, if that makes any sense (they already had a biglaw offer, say). I do know a couple of people who used a state COA clerkship year to network and ended up in much better, more prestigious jobs than they'd had available to them before the clerkship, but that was much more about what they actively did that year than having that clerkship on their resume.

If the goal of the clerkship is purely instrumental - to have it on your resume just in case, down the road - I'm not sure clerking at a state COA contributes much. If you want the experience of clerking, ideally to learn a lot about writing, research, and the law in your jurisdiction, and to end up with a good mentor, then it can definitely be worth it, and it can help be a stepping stone to a federal clerkship if you want to try a second time.

I don't think "long term" benefits of a clerkship can really be quantified very easily. I think there are very few situations where if you've been practicing, say, 10 years or so, an employer is really going to care if you've done a clerkship or not - they're going to care what you've done in your years of practice. There are definitely employers that favor clerks, particularly certain kinds of elite lit boutiques and some government jobs, but this is more at the entry level. And a clerkship can help you get the kind of experience that may ultimately make you a good candidate for other jobs down the road, but it isn't quite the direct cause of getting that job down the road, if that makes any sense. So I would decide about clerking based on your more immediate goals, rather than as a "just in case someday" kind of thing.

If you're thinking more like you might want to change jobs in the next 2-3 years, clerking will have a bigger impact, but I don't know if most "prestigious" employers will care much about state COA. (In my law school market, one of the big markets for state COA clerks was the AG's office - they handled criminal appeals for the state, as well as of course civil appeals where the state was a party, and they loved hiring COA clerks. This may vary by state, though.)

[Anonymous User]

I am clerking for a Judge in his/her late 80s in 2025 and I know this is morbid, but I am worried what would happen if they die? I know there is a practice in SCOTUS that the clerks get placed with other Justices. Is that typically done on the circuit level too?

Unfortunately no guarantee of this. It depends on what the individual judges on the circuit and the chief judge do. And if your clerkship is for a future year at that time, you will need to find another job generally.

[EddieM]

Hi all. How much more valuable is a state supreme court clerkship likely to be than a state court of appeals clerkship? Particularly in the many-years-down-the-road timeframe.

Many years down the road, what you do after will be much more important than which court you clerked for.

Otherwise it’s kind of hard to answer this in a vacuum. All else equal, SSC looks better because this profession is obsessed with prestige. But are you planning to practice in this market for the indefinite future? Who will you be clerking for and what do they bring to the table? Some state COA judges are really connected. Some state COA judges go on to be SSC justices. Some are better mentors than some SSC justices.

Again, in a vacuum and considering nothing else, a SSC clerkship looks better. But it’s hard to quantify what benefit that will bring. Is there a reason you want to take the COA over the SSC? Are you actually choosing between two offers? I wouldn’t pass on a COA for the hope of a SSC unless you’re willing to risk having neither.

Thanks Nixy. This is hypothetical. I'm considering applying to COAs in addition to SSC (and federal options) this upcoming 2L summer, to try to avoid geographic dislocation. Doing state COA instead of SSC could potentially mean not having to move a few hours away for a year or two. I'm not pursuing very prestigious work--my main reason for considering clerking is about the potential long-term benefits that would come in handy if I were to unexpectedly want to change to a more prestige-driven field someday.

So I think that the long-term benefits from doing a state COA are what you make of it, rather than that having it on your resume is going to make a huge difference. If you clerk for a well-respected judge who's connected in the community where you want to practice, that helps regardless of what level court you clerk at. But I can't really remember seeing a lot of lawyer bios hyping someone's state COA clerkship - I don't see it referenced in biglaw bios, or judge bios. That may be correlation more than anything, that most state COA clerks don't end up in positions where the public is reading their bios.

The people I know who've done state COA clerkships mostly ended up further along the trajectory they were already on, if that makes any sense (they already had a biglaw offer, say). I do know a couple of people who used a state COA clerkship year to network and ended up in much better, more prestigious jobs than they'd had available to them before the clerkship, but that was much more about what they actively did that year than having that clerkship on their resume.

If the goal of the clerkship is purely instrumental - to have it on your resume just in case, down the road - I'm not sure clerking at a state COA contributes much. If you want the experience of clerking, ideally to learn a lot about writing, research, and the law in your jurisdiction, and to end up with a good mentor, then it can definitely be worth it, and it can help be a stepping stone to a federal clerkship if you want to try a second time.

I don't think "long term" benefits of a clerkship can really be quantified very easily. I think there are very few situations where if you've been practicing, say, 10 years or so, an employer is really going to care if you've done a clerkship or not - they're going to care what you've done in your years of practice. There are definitely employers that favor clerks, particularly certain kinds of elite lit boutiques and some government jobs, but this is more at the entry level. And a clerkship can help you get the kind of experience that may ultimately make you a good candidate for other jobs down the road, but it isn't quite the direct cause of getting that job down the road, if that makes any sense. So I would decide about clerking based on your more immediate goals, rather than as a "just in case someday" kind of thing.

If you're thinking more like you might want to change jobs in the next 2-3 years, clerking will have a bigger impact, but I don't know if most "prestigious" employers will care much about state COA. (In my law school market, one of the big markets for state COA clerks was the AG's office - they handled criminal appeals for the state, as well as of course civil appeals where the state was a party, and they loved hiring COA clerks. This may vary by state, though.)

Thanks very much, Nixy. Really valuable perspective for me to hear. I appreciate your time!

[Anonymous User]

3L who struck out on plan, grades are still unsettled (sitting on a latin honors divide)

Still planning on applying clerkships post-grad. Is there anything I should be doing in the last 2 months of school (other than grades) that will help me in the long run?

[Anonymous User]

3L who struck out on plan, grades are still unsettled (sitting on a latin honors divide)

Still planning on applying clerkships post-grad. Is there anything I should be doing in the last 2 months of school (other than grades) that will help me in the long run?

With only 2 months left, I think you should just focus on enjoying the last few months of school. There's nothing else you can do to improve your chances, so relish law school and be proud of what you've accomplished!

[Anonymous User]

Would opting for P/F on a course like Fed Courts sink me for clerkship apps?

[Anonymous User]

Would opting for P/F on a course like Fed Courts sink me for clerkship apps?

As with anything, depends on judge. In my non-feeder COA, we would look really askance at that, and if you managed an interview, we would ask. We would probably rather see a B/B+ in it than a P if the P is alongside graded courses and not like the whole semester of Ps in covid times.

[Anonymous User]

Would opting for P/F on a course like Fed Courts sink me for clerkship apps?

As with anything, depends on judge. In my non-feeder COA, we would look really askance at that, and if you managed an interview, we would ask. We would probably rather see a B/B+ in it than a P if the P is alongside graded courses and not like the whole semester of Ps in covid times.

Shoot, figured as much. Man is this class a time sink.

[Anonymous User]

Would opting for P/F on a course like Fed Courts sink me for clerkship apps?

As with anything, depends on judge. In my non-feeder COA, we would look really askance at that, and if you managed an interview, we would ask. We would probably rather see a B/B+ in it than a P if the P is alongside graded courses and not like the whole semester of Ps in covid times.

Shoot, figured as much. Man is this class a time sink.

Compensate by taking another class P/F (especially if you have something fluffy this semester).

[Anonymous User]

I'll be clerking in the east coast but I'm taking the bar in a UBE, non-east coast state. If I want to look into post-clerkship jobs in NY/Boston/Philly, would I need to transfer my score before applying for jobs, or shouldn't I worry about it at first?

[Anonymous User]

I'll be clerking in the east coast but I'm taking the bar in a UBE, non-east coast state. If I want to look into post-clerkship jobs in NY/Boston/Philly, would I need to transfer my score before applying for jobs, or shouldn't I worry about it at first?

Unless it's a financial burden on you, it always helps to be barred before your first day of work in the jurisdiction you'll be practicing in (even though many employers will be OK with you still being in the waive-in process when you start). So I'd recommend transferring your score as soon as you've decided on a state to work in.

[Anonymous User]

How early did biglaw firms start recruiting clerks in your chambers?

[Anonymous User]

How early did biglaw firms start recruiting clerks in your chambers?

In my COA, we got letters beginning in late fall. Most came between December and February, but some are still trickling in.

[Anonymous User]

Would opting for P/F on a course like Fed Courts sink me for clerkship apps?

As with anything, depends on judge. In my non-feeder COA, we would look really askance at that, and if you managed an interview, we would ask. We would probably rather see a B/B+ in it than a P if the P is alongside graded courses and not like the whole semester of Ps in covid times.

Shoot, figured as much. Man is this class a time sink.

Compensate by taking another class P/F (especially if you have something fluffy this semester).

Unfortunately, none of my other classes are offer P/F. In hindsight, I should have definitely sought out one of those other fluff classes as P/F.

[Anonymous User]

Looking for an insight into court of federal claims.
Top 40% at t30(started very very low but was consistently top 1/3 after that), no extracurriculars, will be applying for clerkships that start in 2025 or 2026 and because of this I will have 2-3 years of govcon litigation experience before starting the clerkship(starting govcon litigation position at a federal agency after graduation). I wouldn't be doing otherwise, but a professor who is willing to go to bat for me is friends with one of the judges there. Would I have a chance? What are the usual credentials of COFC clerks?

[Anonymous User]

Do you all look negatively on not doing a clinic? I want to do one 3L but thinking about skipping out to take classes, etc.

And how about pass/fail? Is it seen as a negative to use your allotted pass/fail credits? Assume they'd be used on black letter classes, but not Fed Courts, etc.

[Anonymous User]

Do you all look negatively on not doing a clinic? I want to do one 3L but thinking about skipping out to take classes, etc.

And how about pass/fail? Is it seen as a negative to use your allotted pass/fail credits? Assume they'd be used on black letter classes, but not Fed Courts, etc.

Honestly some judges may look negatively on doing a clinic particularly if you do the clinic and then barely take any other graded classes because of it. If you can manage to do the clinic and still get in like two BLLs and a seminar you should be fine.

[Anonymous User]

Do you all look negatively on not doing a clinic? I want to do one 3L but thinking about skipping out to take classes, etc.

And how about pass/fail? Is it seen as a negative to use your allotted pass/fail credits? Assume they'd be used on black letter classes, but not Fed Courts, etc.

I don't think any judges would look negatively on not doing a clinic, but some judges--particularly district judges--would like to see some actual substantive legal experience on your resume. That could be a clinic or it could be an externship with a USAO. Something that shows you have more experience with the law than pontificating about the Constitution and reading appellate opinions. Also, some clinics--particularly those that involve appellate practice--can be a valuable gold star.

Whether the clinic is otherwise a negative depends on what you would be giving up. If you have room to take solid black-letter law classes (or you did a lot in 2L), go for it. If your schedule is otherwise seminars, then probably not.

My chambers generally sees taking a class pass/fail as a negative. If you've done so, we always ask about it. Barring some compelling personal circumstances (of the death in the family/chronic illness/childbirth variety) there's few ways to answer that question in a way that portrays you as a hard worker. As far as looking at a transcript goes, we would probably look at it as though it was a B or B-, depending on the school. That said, if you're at the cusp of latin honors or among the top few people in your class and you're sure that not going Pass/Fail would push you down the wrong side, the benefits of holding onto your rank outweigh the awkwardness of having to explain why you took a class Pass/Fail.

[Anonymous User]

Do you all look negatively on not doing a clinic? I want to do one 3L but thinking about skipping out to take classes, etc.

And how about pass/fail? Is it seen as a negative to use your allotted pass/fail credits? Assume they'd be used on black letter classes, but not Fed Courts, etc.

At least for district court, a clinic would be a positive (and preferable over most BLL classes) if it provided substantive legal experience-- which is even more important if you are applying to clerk right out of law school or are K-JD.

[Anonymous User]

Do you all look negatively on not doing a clinic? I want to do one 3L but thinking about skipping out to take classes, etc.

And how about pass/fail? Is it seen as a negative to use your allotted pass/fail credits? Assume they'd be used on black letter classes, but not Fed Courts, etc.

I don't think any judges would look negatively on not doing a clinic, but some judges--particularly district judges--would like to see some actual substantive legal experience on your resume. That could be a clinic or it could be an externship with a USAO. Something that shows you have more experience with the law than pontificating about the Constitution and reading appellate opinions. Also, some clinics--particularly those that involve appellate practice--can be a valuable gold star.

Whether the clinic is otherwise a negative depends on what you would be giving up. If you have room to take solid black-letter law classes (or you did a lot in 2L), go for it. If your schedule is otherwise seminars, then probably not.

My chambers generally sees taking a class pass/fail as a negative. If you've done so, we always ask about it. Barring some compelling personal circumstances (of the death in the family/chronic illness/childbirth variety) there's few ways to answer that question in a way that portrays you as a hard worker. As far as looking at a transcript goes, we would probably look at it as though it was a B or B-, depending on the school. That said, if you're at the cusp of latin honors or among the top few people in your class and you're sure that not going Pass/Fail would push you down the wrong side, the benefits of holding onto your rank outweigh the awkwardness of having to explain why you took a class Pass/Fail.

Thanks for this detailed response. It puts me in a tough position because I am on the border of Coif and the arbitrariness of clinic grading is making me wary. Maybe I will just apply for the appellate one on the reasoning that even if the grading knocks me out of magna, it is still worth it as a gold star, and if I don't get appellate just not do a clinic.

I know some might argue I should make decisions based on something other than gunning but I'm looking for only true big chungo gunner responses only. This is TLS, we all know why we're here.

[Anonymous User]

Do you all look negatively on not doing a clinic? I want to do one 3L but thinking about skipping out to take classes, etc.

And how about pass/fail? Is it seen as a negative to use your allotted pass/fail credits? Assume they'd be used on black letter classes, but not Fed Courts, etc.

I don't think any judges would look negatively on not doing a clinic, but some judges--particularly district judges--would like to see some actual substantive legal experience on your resume. That could be a clinic or it could be an externship with a USAO. Something that shows you have more experience with the law than pontificating about the Constitution and reading appellate opinions. Also, some clinics--particularly those that involve appellate practice--can be a valuable gold star.

Whether the clinic is otherwise a negative depends on what you would be giving up. If you have room to take solid black-letter law classes (or you did a lot in 2L), go for it. If your schedule is otherwise seminars, then probably not.

My chambers generally sees taking a class pass/fail as a negative. If you've done so, we always ask about it. Barring some compelling personal circumstances (of the death in the family/chronic illness/childbirth variety) there's few ways to answer that question in a way that portrays you as a hard worker. As far as looking at a transcript goes, we would probably look at it as though it was a B or B-, depending on the school. That said, if you're at the cusp of latin honors or among the top few people in your class and you're sure that not going Pass/Fail would push you down the wrong side, the benefits of holding onto your rank outweigh the awkwardness of having to explain why you took a class Pass/Fail.

Thanks for this detailed response. It puts me in a tough position because I am on the border of Coif and the arbitrariness of clinic grading is making me wary. Maybe I will just apply for the appellate one on the reasoning that even if the grading knocks me out of magna, it is still worth it as a gold star, and if I don't get appellate just not do a clinic.

I know some might argue I should make decisions based on something other than gunning but I'm looking for only true big chungo gunner responses only. This is TLS, we all know why we're here.

I hate to like add fuel to the indecisive fire but I think magna cum laude + no appellate clinic looks way better than cum laude + appellate clinic (like leagues better). The magna cum laude and cum laude distinction is huge because magna is typically the top 10% cutoff which if you don't have in a lot of appellate chambers will get you cut at the outset.

[Anonymous User]

Do you all look negatively on not doing a clinic? I want to do one 3L but thinking about skipping out to take classes, etc.

And how about pass/fail? Is it seen as a negative to use your allotted pass/fail credits? Assume they'd be used on black letter classes, but not Fed Courts, etc.

I don't think any judges would look negatively on not doing a clinic, but some judges--particularly district judges--would like to see some actual substantive legal experience on your resume. That could be a clinic or it could be an externship with a USAO. Something that shows you have more experience with the law than pontificating about the Constitution and reading appellate opinions. Also, some clinics--particularly those that involve appellate practice--can be a valuable gold star.

Whether the clinic is otherwise a negative depends on what you would be giving up. If you have room to take solid black-letter law classes (or you did a lot in 2L), go for it. If your schedule is otherwise seminars, then probably not.

My chambers generally sees taking a class pass/fail as a negative. If you've done so, we always ask about it. Barring some compelling personal circumstances (of the death in the family/chronic illness/childbirth variety) there's few ways to answer that question in a way that portrays you as a hard worker. As far as looking at a transcript goes, we would probably look at it as though it was a B or B-, depending on the school. That said, if you're at the cusp of latin honors or among the top few people in your class and you're sure that not going Pass/Fail would push you down the wrong side, the benefits of holding onto your rank outweigh the awkwardness of having to explain why you took a class Pass/Fail.

Thanks for this detailed response. It puts me in a tough position because I am on the border of Coif and the arbitrariness of clinic grading is making me wary. Maybe I will just apply for the appellate one on the reasoning that even if the grading knocks me out of magna, it is still worth it as a gold star, and if I don't get appellate just not do a clinic.

I know some might argue I should make decisions based on something other than gunning but I'm looking for only true big chungo gunner responses only. This is TLS, we all know why we're here.

I hate to like add fuel to the indecisive fire but I think magna cum laude + no appellate clinic looks way better than cum laude + appellate clinic (like leagues better). The magna cum laude and cum laude distinction is huge because magna is typically the top 10% cutoff which if you don't have in a lot of appellate chambers will get you cut at the outset.

I hear that. Insight into clinic grading would be helpful but I can't seem to get good info about it without asking people too explicitly and being annoying ... it's on the seminar curve but I've heard people say most people just get an A-, which would knock me out of magna given the super heavy credit load of clinic.

A few people I've seen graduated coif and did appellate clinic and are now clerking for COAs, but I have to think these were all-stars who might have been walking into clinic with a 3.95+ and able to withstand a system shock (or maybe just killed it in clinic and got the professor to give them all As).

[Anonymous User]

Do you all look negatively on not doing a clinic? I want to do one 3L but thinking about skipping out to take classes, etc.

And how about pass/fail? Is it seen as a negative to use your allotted pass/fail credits? Assume they'd be used on black letter classes, but not Fed Courts, etc.

I don't think any judges would look negatively on not doing a clinic, but some judges--particularly district judges--would like to see some actual substantive legal experience on your resume. That could be a clinic or it could be an externship with a USAO. Something that shows you have more experience with the law than pontificating about the Constitution and reading appellate opinions. Also, some clinics--particularly those that involve appellate practice--can be a valuable gold star.

Whether the clinic is otherwise a negative depends on what you would be giving up. If you have room to take solid black-letter law classes (or you did a lot in 2L), go for it. If your schedule is otherwise seminars, then probably not.

My chambers generally sees taking a class pass/fail as a negative. If you've done so, we always ask about it. Barring some compelling personal circumstances (of the death in the family/chronic illness/childbirth variety) there's few ways to answer that question in a way that portrays you as a hard worker. As far as looking at a transcript goes, we would probably look at it as though it was a B or B-, depending on the school. That said, if you're at the cusp of latin honors or among the top few people in your class and you're sure that not going Pass/Fail would push you down the wrong side, the benefits of holding onto your rank outweigh the awkwardness of having to explain why you took a class Pass/Fail.

Thanks for this detailed response. It puts me in a tough position because I am on the border of Coif and the arbitrariness of clinic grading is making me wary. Maybe I will just apply for the appellate one on the reasoning that even if the grading knocks me out of magna, it is still worth it as a gold star, and if I don't get appellate just not do a clinic.

I know some might argue I should make decisions based on something other than gunning but I'm looking for only true big chungo gunner responses only. This is TLS, we all know why we're here.

I hate to like add fuel to the indecisive fire but I think magna cum laude + no appellate clinic looks way better than cum laude + appellate clinic (like leagues better). The magna cum laude and cum laude distinction is huge because magna is typically the top 10% cutoff which if you don't have in a lot of appellate chambers will get you cut at the outset.

I hear that. Insight into clinic grading would be helpful but I can't seem to get good info about it without asking people too explicitly and being annoying ... it's on the seminar curve but I've heard people say most people just get an A-, which would knock me out of magna given the super heavy credit load of clinic.

A few people I've seen graduated coif and did appellate clinic and are now clerking for COAs, but I have to think these were all-stars who might have been walking into clinic with a 3.95+ and able to withstand a system shock (or maybe just killed it in clinic and got the professor to give them all As).

Former CA2 clerk, chiming in to say my chambers viewed clinics as neutral-to-slightly-negative. Definitely wouldn't hurt an app if the person still took blackletter classes, but we basically just ignored clinics/assumed those grades were fake. The only specific required class was Fed Courts, for obvious reasons; for everything else, we basically just wanted to see a good number of "challenging" classes.