C/o 2015 kickin ass, takin names: a declaration of optimism Forum

[rad lulz]

Also, in a very general way- we can't control the job market or the substance of the work we'll have to do, just how much effort we put into it and our attitude toward it. . . just like ls itself seems like a worthwhile one to tale on

This is silly. You don't have to go to law school (the job market sucks), and law school isn't worthwhile just because it's a challenge.

[pixleprincess]

Also, in a very general way- we can't control the job market or the substance of the work we'll have to do, just how much effort we put into it and our attitude toward it. . . just like ls itself seems like a worthwhile one to tale on

This is silly. You don't have to go to law school (the job market sucks), and law school isn't worthwhile just because it's a challenge.

No, I meant after someone has already decided upon and committed to law school for any one of a hundred reasons, after that it seems like a good idea to focus on what's within control- outlook, study habits etc..

[kwais]

I kinda love law school. But I attribute most of this to my decision to retake and attend a school with the ability to place me in a job. The advice people are giving you is solid. If you take your GPA and your upbeat attitude to a good school, you might like law school.

[sunynp]

I didn't like law school at all. But I am happy with the work I will be doing. Law school is nothing like practice. But you should know:
1. You are making a big mistake going to Brooklyn.
2. You should come back into this thread after OCI at your school or after you see how few people get jobs, should you go to Brooklyn or, really, any law school.
3. Getting a job is essential for most people because law school is way overpriced and they have to take out massive debt. For some unfathomable reason even a school like Brooklyn charges as much as a school like Columbia. [Total Expenses at BLS fulltime not living at home: $72,784 Columbia-Academic Year Budget $77,000] No idea why. If grads can't get jobs to repay the debt quickly they will be paying for 10, 15, 25 years. To pay $210,000 to go to law school at Brooklyn is insane.
4. Law schools lie about how many jobs people get and how good those jobs actually are, this forum tries to wake people up to this disparity.
5. Law school grades are not at all like undergrad grades. You can't out work the people at school into good grades, and even if you can, the curve can get you.

[chem]

Im right there with you OP! I'll check back in a year to see how I feel, but I think it will be fun! A lot of the anxiety is gone because IPSecure and engineering is a solid back up plan

[Samara]

I'm not retaking, and I'm of perfectly sound mind and happy with this decision. If I went to the trouble of explaining why retake/reapply doesnt apply to me, folks would stfu ... But it's personal, and irrelevant anyway.

If I had a nickel... I can't tell you how many people have said that they can't retake because of some special personal reason that no one else would understand. In 99% of cases, when they reveal the reason, it's a stupid reason. Retaking is far cheaper, easier, and less stressful than law school.

I guess I'm looking for more people who've loved law school... I personally know several.

I'm already enjoying law school and I haven't even started yet. (wooo, NU ASW!) But you don't go to law school to have fun. I can have a lot more fun with $200k than law school. You go to law school to get a job, presumably as a lawyer. Therefore, decisions on where to attend should be made solely on the job prospects v. debt load balance until you're choosing between peer schools. Maybe if half the schools shut down and legal hiring gets back up to pre-crash levels you can choose whichever school is most fun, but not ITE.

Also, in a very general way- we can't control the job market or the substance of the work we'll have to do, just how much effort we put into it and our attitude toward it.

LOLOLOL This is exactly why TLS advises people to retake. Very few aspects of legal hiring are within your control. Even grades are out of your control to a certain extent. You LSAT score is one of the few things that is entirely within your control. Retaking the LSAT to get into a school with better prospects or a lower debt load is one of the easiest and most direct things you can do to dramatically improve your job prospects.

I think if my outlook mirrored this site's id never be able to commit to three years of law school in the first place.

Then maybe you shouldn't go? I'm a pretty cynical dude and my outlook probably prevented me from going to law school or something similar when I graduated from college. Waiting to go to law school was one of the best decisions I've ever made. Without my cynicism, I wouldn't have found out about the horrible state of the legal market and I'd likely be on track to staring down massive debt, a near complete inability to get a desirable job in my target market, and I wouldn't have found my life's passion. Instead, I'm taking a much, much lower (though still fairly high) risk by attending Northwestern and have a decent shot at a great job that will also allow me to pursue my passion, thanks in large part to this site and our shared cynicism.

But if you want to blind yourself to the realities of law school, be my guest. Are you a K-JD, by chance?

[pixleprincess]

I've been out of college for 5 years.
I don't know why people think I'm going to Brooklyn.
Let's pretend I'm going to Fordham with 30k a year. Now can I be optimistic is that ok guys?

[woeisme]

Samara is a wise 0L.

OP, thanks for the shoutout. Where exactly will you be attending btw? And with what goals? Was this already discussed? I forget.

[woeisme]

I've been out of college for 5 years.
I don't know why people think I'm going to Brooklyn.
Let's pretend I'm going to Fordham with 30k a year. Now can I be optimistic is that ok guys?

Why pretend? Where are you going?

[Samara]

I've been out of college for 5 years.
I don't know why people think I'm going to Brooklyn.
Let's pretend I'm going to Fordham with 30k a year. Now can I be optimistic is that ok guys?

It's not terrible, but it's not great. If you retake and score just a few points higher, you could be going to YSH or CCN full-ride. The difference between Fordham at half-price and CCN at nearly free is a gulf, if not an ocean.

ETA: You've been lucky not to get jaded by the workplace. I'm a bit jealous, haha. Sorry for asking if you're a K-JD, but it's the source of most misplaced optimism on here.

[pixleprincess]

No pretending, I just don't know yet- I applied late, have most of my offers, and can wait til may to deposit. Please please no one advise me to apply early next cycle. Please. I promise you I "get it" and that most of you would retake, reapply, maybe ED somewhere in the t14... But I'm not doing that. - feel free to challenge this.. "why?" "that makes no sense" "why become a lawyer at all" "you don't understand what it's like out there" but I won't reply. I don't know why so many of you care... Just settle on "pixleprincess is a dumbass with decent stats- no success for her, yay more jobs for The rest of us!"

[woeisme]

No pretending, I just don't know yet- I applied late, have most of my offers, and can wait til may to deposit. Please please no one advise me to apply early next cycle. Please. I promise you I "get it" and that most of you would retake, reapply, maybe ED somewhere in the t14... But I'm not doing that. - feel free to challenge this.. "why?" "that makes no sense" "why become a lawyer at all" "you don't understand what it's like out there" but I won't reply. I don't know why so many of you care... Just settle on "pixleprincess is a dumbass with decent stats- no success for her, yay more jobs for The rest of us!"

Okay. Well, you're going into this eyes wide open. Good luck pixle!

[Samara]

No pretending, I just don't know yet- I applied late, have most of my offers, and can wait til may to deposit. Please please no one advise me to apply early next cycle. Please. I promise you I "get it" and that most of you would retake, reapply, maybe ED somewhere in the t14... But I'm not doing that. - feel free to challenge this.. "why?" "that makes no sense" "why become a lawyer at all" "you don't understand what it's like out there" but I won't reply. I don't know why so many of you care... Just settle on "pixleprincess is a dumbass with decent stats- no success for her, yay more jobs for The rest of us!"

Okay. Well, you're going into this eyes wide open. Good luck pixle!

This. At least you're making an informed decision. I hope everything works out for you.

[sunynp]

No pretending, I just don't know yet- I applied late, have most of my offers, and can wait til may to deposit. Please please no one advise me to apply early next cycle. Please. I promise you I "get it" and that most of you would retake, reapply, maybe ED somewhere in the t14... But I'm not doing that. - feel free to challenge this.. "why?" "that makes no sense" "why become a lawyer at all" "you don't understand what it's like out there" but I won't reply. I don't know why so many of you care... Just settle on "pixleprincess is a dumbass with decent stats- no success for her, yay more jobs for The rest of us!"

I will tell you why I care - because I try to stop people from making terrible mistakes with their lives. And just because this thread is about you, it doesn't mean someone else won't read it and think, "going to Brooklyn is good, going to Fordham and wasting my GPA because I'm stubborn is good, not wanting to wait another year because I don't care about getting more scholarships or higher rankings is smart, these people are just elitists and no nothing about the practice of law or getting a job!"

You can be as self-destructive as you like and maybe this will work great for you; but I am not going to be dissuaded from posting why you are being foolish just because you put your fingers in your ears and go "la-la-la"

[romothesavior]

No pretending, I just don't know yet- I applied late, have most of my offers, and can wait til may to deposit. Please please no one advise me to apply early next cycle. Please. I promise you I "get it" and that most of you would retake, reapply, maybe ED somewhere in the t14... But I'm not doing that. - feel free to challenge this.. "why?" "that makes no sense" "why become a lawyer at all" "you don't understand what it's like out there" but I won't reply. I don't know why so many of you care... Just settle on "pixleprincess is a dumbass with decent stats- no success for her, yay more jobs for The rest of us!"

Code for, "I know that current students and recent graduates with their finger on the pulse of the current market are telling me I'm making a horrible mistake, but I am a special snowflake and don't want to hear any contrary opinions, so please either reinforce my misguided conclusions about law school or go away."

[pixleprincess]

Yes i am a super special and wildly destructive snowflake... how am i still alive? How am i not in debt? I don't know! crazy. I think I was blessed by a couple of magical wild rabbits shortly after my birth and can do no wrong. seriously.. I'm just sorry no one else has had this experience... makes life easier.

But now that that is out of the way, if anyone wants to share their excitement for their futures or something to that effect, I'd love to hear about it. For everyone else, I promise to post the dire state of my bank account in 4 years (assuming the rabbit-magic wears off) and you all can pat yourselves on the backs for telling me so.

[sunynp]

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 0&t=183509

I'm thinking you aren't in debt because you arent in law school.

So to humor you, why are you so excited about law school? What are you looking for? Why don't you care about going to the best school you can?

[JDrecruiter]

As a law school graduate turned attorney recruiter, I am pleased to see optimism. All of the gloom and doom on this board is really not representative of the legal market. If you work hard and network, you will likely find a job that makes you happy. As most lawyers will tell you, being a lawyer is more about being a salesperson for yourself than it is anything else. I know many lawyers who are not that bright, and did not go to top schools and are wildly successful. I know plenty of lawyers who are brilliant and graduated from top schools who cannot find a job. The lawyers who are "hungry" and work hard to earn their job every day AND who have a positive attitude come out on top. There are plenty of lawyers who will get jobs coming from Brooklyn - maybe not an easy entree into BIGLAW, but that may not be what OP wants. Keep a positive attitude, work hard and network. Never forget you are marketing yourself, but the first step in marketing is doing a great job. The legal market IS improving (really since the major downturn of post 9-11). I am busier than I have been in years.

[angrybird]

As a law school graduate turned attorney recruiter, I am pleased to see optimism. All of the gloom and doom on this board is really not representative of the legal market. If you work hard and network, you will likely find a job that makes you happy. As most lawyers will tell you, being a lawyer is more about being a salesperson for yourself than it is anything else. I know many lawyers who are not that bright, and did not go to top schools and are wildly successful. I know plenty of lawyers who are brilliant and graduated from top schools who cannot find a job. The lawyers who are "hungry" and work hard to earn their job every day AND who have a positive attitude come out on top. There are plenty of lawyers who will get jobs coming from Brooklyn - maybe not an easy entree into BIGLAW, but that may not be what OP wants. Keep a positive attitude, work hard and network. Never forget you are marketing yourself, but the first step in marketing is doing a great job. The legal market IS improving (really since the major downturn of post 9-11). I am busier than I have been in years.

i find your ideas interesting and would like to subscribe to your newsletter

[Ludo!]

As a law school graduate turned attorney recruiter, I am pleased to see optimism. All of the gloom and doom on this board is really not representative of the legal market. If you work hard and network, you will likely find a job that makes you happy. As most lawyers will tell you, being a lawyer is more about being a salesperson for yourself than it is anything else. I know many lawyers who are not that bright, and did not go to top schools and are wildly successful. I know plenty of lawyers who are brilliant and graduated from top schools who cannot find a job. The lawyers who are "hungry" and work hard to earn their job every day AND who have a positive attitude come out on top. There are plenty of lawyers who will get jobs coming from Brooklyn - maybe not an easy entree into BIGLAW, but that may not be what OP wants. Keep a positive attitude, work hard and network. Never forget you are marketing yourself, but the first step in marketing is doing a great job. The legal market IS improving (really since the major downturn of post 9-11). I am busier than I have been in years.

This is seriously one of the most irresponsible posts I've ever seen on TLS

Are the doom and gloom statistics about the legal market somehow not representative of the legal market? I get that things are getting better but there are still vast amounts of law students graduating unemployed and often in serious debt. Of course you're busy, there is a huge oversupply of lawyers, but that doesn't mean that anyone can get a job if they just "work hard and network"

[Samara]

As a law school graduate turned attorney recruiter, I am pleased to see optimism. All of the gloom and doom on this board is really not representative of the legal market. If you work hard and network, you will likely find a job that makes you happy. As most lawyers will tell you, being a lawyer is more about being a salesperson for yourself than it is anything else. I know many lawyers who are not that bright, and did not go to top schools and are wildly successful. I know plenty of lawyers who are brilliant and graduated from top schools who cannot find a job. The lawyers who are "hungry" and work hard to earn their job every day AND who have a positive attitude come out on top. There are plenty of lawyers who will get jobs coming from Brooklyn - maybe not an easy entree into BIGLAW, but that may not be what OP wants. Keep a positive attitude, work hard and network. Never forget you are marketing yourself, but the first step in marketing is doing a great job. The legal market IS improving (really since the major downturn of post 9-11). I am busier than I have been in years.

This is seriously one of the most irresponsible posts I've ever seen on TLS

Are the doom and gloom statistics about the legal market somehow not representative of the legal market? I get that things are getting better but there are still vast amounts of law students graduating unemployed and often in serious debt. Of course you're busy, there is a huge oversupply of lawyers, but that doesn't mean that anyone can get a job if they just "work hard and network"

They can get a job, it just might be in a doc review dungeon or bigretail. Are you telling me law school isn't a fast track to being a district manager for Hot Topic?

[romothesavior]

As a law school graduate turned attorney recruiter, I am pleased to see optimism. All of the gloom and doom on this board is really not representative of the legal market. If you work hard and network, you will likely find a job that makes you happy. As most lawyers will tell you, being a lawyer is more about being a salesperson for yourself than it is anything else. I know many lawyers who are not that bright, and did not go to top schools and are wildly successful. I know plenty of lawyers who are brilliant and graduated from top schools who cannot find a job. The lawyers who are "hungry" and work hard to earn their job every day AND who have a positive attitude come out on top. There are plenty of lawyers who will get jobs coming from Brooklyn - maybe not an easy entree into BIGLAW, but that may not be what OP wants. Keep a positive attitude, work hard and network. Never forget you are marketing yourself, but the first step in marketing is doing a great job. The legal market IS improving (really since the major downturn of post 9-11). I am busier than I have been in years.

This is seriously one of the most irresponsible posts I've ever seen on TLS

Are the doom and gloom statistics about the legal market somehow not representative of the legal market? I get that things are getting better but there are still vast amounts of law students graduating unemployed and often in serious debt. Of course you're busy, there is a huge oversupply of lawyers, but that doesn't mean that anyone can get a job if they just "work hard and network"

It is, as one wise TLSer often says, sublime idiocy. And the bold is a really good example of a flawed argument, for those of you studying for the LSAT. And what is this talk of things getting better since the "major downturn of post-911?" I know there was a little downturn in the early 2000s, but it pales in comparison to the legal downturn of 2009-now(ish), which has been, you know, the worst downturn in legal employment in history. That's not "gloom and doom" of TLS. That's statistics.

I hope no one takes this to heart, because it quite simply not reflective of the reality facing those of us currently in law school. For an opposing view, I'll throw out there that the hiring partner at the firm I'm going to said that when law students ask him what they should do when they miss the OCI boat or have mediocre grades at a non-elite school, he said drop out. He was dead serious. I am really appalled that someone in legal recruiting would paint this rosy picture for applicants. Like, is this real life?

Hey, maybe if you're so busy you wouldn't mind hiring the 20,000 people who will graduate without a legal job this year?

[angrybird]

As a law school graduate turned attorney recruiter, I am pleased to see optimism. All of the gloom and doom on this board is really not representative of the legal market. If you work hard and network, you will likely find a job that makes you happy. As most lawyers will tell you, being a lawyer is more about being a salesperson for yourself than it is anything else. I know many lawyers who are not that bright, and did not go to top schools and are wildly successful. I know plenty of lawyers who are brilliant and graduated from top schools who cannot find a job. The lawyers who are "hungry" and work hard to earn their job every day AND who have a positive attitude come out on top. There are plenty of lawyers who will get jobs coming from Brooklyn - maybe not an easy entree into BIGLAW, but that may not be what OP wants. Keep a positive attitude, work hard and network. Never forget you are marketing yourself, but the first step in marketing is doing a great job. The legal market IS improving (really since the major downturn of post 9-11). I am busier than I have been in years.

This is seriously one of the most irresponsible posts I've ever seen on TLS

Are the doom and gloom statistics about the legal market somehow not representative of the legal market? I get that things are getting better but there are still vast amounts of law students graduating unemployed and often in serious debt. Of course you're busy, there is a huge oversupply of lawyers, but that doesn't mean that anyone can get a job if they just "work hard and network"

It is, as one wise TLSer often says, sublime idiocy. And the bold is a really good example of a flawed argument, for those of you studying for the LSAT. And what is this talk of things getting better since the "major downturn of post-911?" I know there was a little downturn in the early 2000s, but it pales in comparison to the legal downturn of 2009-now(ish), which has been, you know, the worst downturn in legal employment in history. That's not "gloom and doom" of TLS. That's statistics.

I hope no one takes this to heart, because it quite simply not reflective of the reality facing those of us currently in law school. For an opposing view, I'll throw out there that the hiring partner at the firm I'm going to said that when law students ask him what they should do when they miss the OCI boat or have mediocre grades at a non-elite school, he said drop out. He was dead serious. I am really appalled that someone in legal recruiting would paint this rosy picture for applicants. Like, is this real life?

Hey, maybe if you're so busy you wouldn't mind hiring the 20,000 people who will graduate without a legal job this year?

flawed assumption: that "attorney recruiter" means "someone involved in firm hiring" and not "scam artist"

[sunynp]

As a law school graduate turned attorney recruiter, I am pleased to see optimism. All of the gloom and doom on this board is really not representative of the legal market. If you work hard and network, you will likely find a job that makes you happy. As most lawyers will tell you, being a lawyer is more about being a salesperson for yourself than it is anything else. I know many lawyers who are not that bright, and did not go to top schools and are wildly successful. I know plenty of lawyers who are brilliant and graduated from top schools who cannot find a job. The lawyers who are "hungry" and work hard to earn their job every day AND who have a positive attitude come out on top. There are plenty of lawyers who will get jobs coming from Brooklyn - maybe not an easy entree into BIGLAW, but that may not be what OP wants. Keep a positive attitude, work hard and network. Never forget you are marketing yourself, but the first step in marketing is doing a great job. The legal market IS improving (really since the major downturn of post 9-11). I am busier than I have been in years.

What are you talking about? You should out yourself so that we never associate with your firm. You would tell people things are looking up so they should spend over $210,000 to go to BLS? How would you tell them they are going to repay that debt?

As most lawyers will tell you, being a lawyer is more about being a salesperson for yourself than it is anything else.

Are you fucking kidding me? Being a lawyer is about giving accurate and timely advice, producing excellent work product in a tight time frame and a hundred other things. Your job as a recruiter is about being a salesperson, which is what you are doing here. Selling yourself. I guess that is why you had to drop out of practicing.

There are plenty of lawyers who will get jobs coming from Brooklyn

If you have the nerve to post that in this thread, you better have the nerve to back it up with statistics. How many recent BLS grads are you placing? What grades did they have? What salaries are they making? What kind of firms are they going into?
Oh, maybe you, like law schools, are talking about ANY JOB. We don't count jobs that a person could get without a JD as a JOB.

And then there is this:

I know plenty of lawyers who are brilliant and graduated from top schools who cannot find a job.

The legal market IS improving (really since the major downturn of post 9-11). I am busier than I have been in years.[

[RedBirds2011]

TBF, lawyering does involve a lot of sales skills and most law graduates don't get that. But this is definitely too rosy.