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Not all law is adversarial. Litigation may not be for you, but there are of course other paths. What did you do this summer?

rpupkin wrote:Not all law is adversarial. Litigation may not be for you, but there are of course other paths. What did you do this summer?

I was an in-house legal intern, but unfortunately there wasn't a whole lot of work for me to do so it was fairly light on the experience.

z0mbiecatz1234 wrote:

rpupkin wrote:Not all law is adversarial. Litigation may not be for you, but there are of course other paths. What did you do this summer?

I was an in-house legal intern, but unfortunately there wasn't a whole lot of work for me to do so it was fairly light on the experience.

Well, it's your life, but I think it's a little early to give up entirely. You're on a full scholarship at a decent law school, and you have good grades. You've already figured out you don't like litigation, which some unfortunate souls do not discover until after working for a year or two at a law firm. That actually gives you an advantage, as you can focus on areas of law (like tax, estates, etc) that aren't so adversarial.

The couple of dental hygienists I've known weren't the happiest people in the world, so perhaps that's my coloring my advice. But just as loving law school is not necessarily a sign that you'll love practicing law, hating law school is not necessarily a sign that you'll hate practicing law. Give it some time, and talk to people about non-litigation career options.

rpupkin wrote:

z0mbiecatz1234 wrote:

rpupkin wrote:Not all law is adversarial. Litigation may not be for you, but there are of course other paths. What did you do this summer?

I was an in-house legal intern, but unfortunately there wasn't a whole lot of work for me to do so it was fairly light on the experience.

Well, it's your life, but I think it's a little early to give up entirely. You're on a full scholarship at a decent law school, and you have good grades. You've already figured out you don't like litigation, which some unfortunate souls do not discover until after working for a year or two at a law firm. That actually gives you an advantage, as you can focus on areas of law (like tax, estates, etc) that aren't so adversarial.

The couple of dental hygienists I've known weren't the happiest people in the world, so perhaps that's my coloring my advice. But just as loving law school is not necessarily a sign that you'll love practicing law, hating law school is not necessarily a sign that you'll hate practicing law. Give it some time, and talk to people about non-litigation career options.

I appreciate your advice. Thanks so much. Estate planning has interested me as well, maybe I could be happy doing that.

It sounds like the main issue is that your classmates are stressful to be around. I can't imagine any situation more stressful than going to a T25 where good jobs are possible but striking out is likely for a decent chunk of the class. Honestly, just completely avoid them. Don't let them dictate what career you choose. If you don't like legal issues, that is something different entirely.

unlicensedpotato wrote:It sounds like the main issue is that your classmates are stressful to be around. I can't imagine any situation more stressful than going to a T25 where good jobs are possible but striking out is likely for a decent chunk of the class. Honestly, just completely avoid them. Don't let them dictate what career you choose. If you don't like legal issues, that is something different entirely.

I think the people in the profession as well as classmates are definitely a part of the problem because I simply don't fit with their personalities. Sadly, I truly feel I have never met more selfish assholes in my life. No doubt I have met some seriously caring and nice people... It is absolutely not the norm. I can say the same about the practicing attorneys I have met (for the exception of one particularly nice biglaw guy I met once). I know there are assholes in every profession but it sure seems more common in the legal profession. My classmates absolutely make me sick... Smiling and cheering on the inside when they see others trip up or "fail" at something. I have tried using your advice but I wonder if there's a point where others' negativity will be too much.

z0mbiecatz1234 wrote:

unlicensedpotato wrote:It sounds like the main issue is that your classmates are stressful to be around. I can't imagine any situation more stressful than going to a T25 where good jobs are possible but striking out is likely for a decent chunk of the class. Honestly, just completely avoid them. Don't let them dictate what career you choose. If you don't like legal issues, that is something different entirely.

I think the people in the profession as well as classmates are definitely a part of the problem because I simply don't fit with their personalities. Sadly, I truly feel I have never met more selfish assholes in my life. No doubt I have met some seriously caring and nice people... It is absolutely not the norm. I can say the same about the practicing attorneys I have met (for the exception of one particularly nice biglaw guy I met once). I know there are assholes in every profession but it sure seems more common in the legal profession. My classmates absolutely make me sick... Smiling and cheering on the inside when they see others trip up or "fail" at something. I have tried using your advice but I wonder if there's a point where others' negativity will be too much.

Just in case this is helpful- I work in refugee advocacy and my coworkers, some of whom are lawyers and some of whom aren't, are the nicest, most cooperative and kind people ever. I don't know if you're interested in public interest type stuff but I know I could never work with mean people. Also, the good thing about it is you're never really fighting with someone, just arguing that your client qualifies for a given benefit. There's nobody on the other side trying to say you're wrong.

How much money does a dental hygienist make and how much money did you expect to make as a lawyer?

Unfathomableruckus wrote:

z0mbiecatz1234 wrote:

unlicensedpotato wrote:It sounds like the main issue is that your classmates are stressful to be around. I can't imagine any situation more stressful than going to a T25 where good jobs are possible but striking out is likely for a decent chunk of the class. Honestly, just completely avoid them. Don't let them dictate what career you choose. If you don't like legal issues, that is something different entirely.

I think the people in the profession as well as classmates are definitely a part of the problem because I simply don't fit with their personalities. Sadly, I truly feel I have never met more selfish assholes in my life. No doubt I have met some seriously caring and nice people... It is absolutely not the norm. I can say the same about the practicing attorneys I have met (for the exception of one particularly nice biglaw guy I met once). I know there are assholes in every profession but it sure seems more common in the legal profession. My classmates absolutely make me sick... Smiling and cheering on the inside when they see others trip up or "fail" at something. I have tried using your advice but I wonder if there's a point where others' negativity will be too much.

Just in case this is helpful- I work in refugee advocacy and my coworkers, some of whom are lawyers and some of whom aren't, are the nicest, most cooperative and kind people ever. I don't know if you're interested in public interest type stuff but I know I could never work with mean people. Also, the good thing about it is you're never really fighting with someone, just arguing that your client qualifies for a given benefit. There's nobody on the other side trying to say you're wrong.

That is extremely helpful. Thank you for your comment. I sometimes do forget that there are lawyers doing really honorable great things out there. Public interest would absolutely be something for me to consider. I know biglaw and litigation isn't for me but perhaps another area is!

Mark Aldridge wrote:How much money does a dental hygienist make and how much money did you expect to make as a lawyer?

They make on average $70k (I'm guessing a bit less for entry level and depending on where you work, etc.). As a lawyer, I expected to graduate and find a job for $70-80k. Not sure if this is/was unrealistic, but it's what I hoped for.

z0mbiecatz1234 wrote:

unlicensedpotato wrote:It sounds like the main issue is that your classmates are stressful to be around. I can't imagine any situation more stressful than going to a T25 where good jobs are possible but striking out is likely for a decent chunk of the class. Honestly, just completely avoid them. Don't let them dictate what career you choose. If you don't like legal issues, that is something different entirely.

I think the people in the profession as well as classmates are definitely a part of the problem because I simply don't fit with their personalities. Sadly, I truly feel I have never met more selfish assholes in my life. No doubt I have met some seriously caring and nice people... It is absolutely not the norm. I can say the same about the practicing attorneys I have met (for the exception of one particularly nice biglaw guy I met once). I know there are assholes in every profession but it sure seems more common in the legal profession. My classmates absolutely make me sick... Smiling and cheering on the inside when they see others trip up or "fail" at something. I have tried using your advice but I wonder if there's a point where others' negativity will be too much.

Find the 5 reasonably decent people in your class and hang out with them. I was never, ever one of those people who only had law school friends or even had a majority of law school friends. Law school seems to have a higher than average number of asshats.

I have maybe 3-4 friends from law school, and I'm absolutely fine with that.

rcharter1978 wrote:

z0mbiecatz1234 wrote:

unlicensedpotato wrote:It sounds like the main issue is that your classmates are stressful to be around. I can't imagine any situation more stressful than going to a T25 where good jobs are possible but striking out is likely for a decent chunk of the class. Honestly, just completely avoid them. Don't let them dictate what career you choose. If you don't like legal issues, that is something different entirely.

I think the people in the profession as well as classmates are definitely a part of the problem because I simply don't fit with their personalities. Sadly, I truly feel I have never met more selfish assholes in my life. No doubt I have met some seriously caring and nice people... It is absolutely not the norm. I can say the same about the practicing attorneys I have met (for the exception of one particularly nice biglaw guy I met once). I know there are assholes in every profession but it sure seems more common in the legal profession. My classmates absolutely make me sick... Smiling and cheering on the inside when they see others trip up or "fail" at something. I have tried using your advice but I wonder if there's a point where others' negativity will be too much.

Find the 5 reasonably decent people in your class and hang out with them. I was never, ever one of those people who only had law school friends or even had a majority of law school friends. Law school seems to have a higher than average number of asshats.

I have maybe 3-4 friends from law school, and I'm absolutely fine with that.

Thanks for the advice. I think last year I didn't do myself any favors by being a "lone wolf." I'll stick with the few people I actually really like this upcoming year!

1L was exponentially worse than 2L. Take the classes that seem interesting to you, don't take the ones you don't want to take. If you're at a top 25, there's a good chance you could pick up biglaw come OCI - but I mean, it sounds like you kind of don't want that.

There are attorneys out there that do no research/writing. I mean, there are even attorneys out there that don't even practice law. Where I'm working this summer (government), you're a weirdo if you spend hours perfecting your citations. Everyone's out the door by 5:00, and rarely come in on weekends.

You don't have to be adversarial to succeed in law, either. It's, again, the weirdo freaks that think law is entirely about suing people.

Work-life balance absolutely exists in this profession. The people who think otherwise (1) are try-hard type A children that don't FUCK, or (2) get pushed through the OCI meat grinder and don't realize they hate biglaw until they're stuck.

z0mbiecatz1234 wrote:

rcharter1978 wrote:

z0mbiecatz1234 wrote:

unlicensedpotato wrote:It sounds like the main issue is that your classmates are stressful to be around. I can't imagine any situation more stressful than going to a T25 where good jobs are possible but striking out is likely for a decent chunk of the class. Honestly, just completely avoid them. Don't let them dictate what career you choose. If you don't like legal issues, that is something different entirely.

I think the people in the profession as well as classmates are definitely a part of the problem because I simply don't fit with their personalities. Sadly, I truly feel I have never met more selfish assholes in my life. No doubt I have met some seriously caring and nice people... It is absolutely not the norm. I can say the same about the practicing attorneys I have met (for the exception of one particularly nice biglaw guy I met once). I know there are assholes in every profession but it sure seems more common in the legal profession. My classmates absolutely make me sick... Smiling and cheering on the inside when they see others trip up or "fail" at something. I have tried using your advice but I wonder if there's a point where others' negativity will be too much.

Find the 5 reasonably decent people in your class and hang out with them. I was never, ever one of those people who only had law school friends or even had a majority of law school friends. Law school seems to have a higher than average number of asshats.

I have maybe 3-4 friends from law school, and I'm absolutely fine with that.

Thanks for the advice. I think last year I didn't do myself any favors by being a "lone wolf." I'll stick with the few people I actually really like this upcoming year!

LOL. I sort of did that too. I had like one friend and he dropped out And then I made a few new friends.

I think its okay to be a lone wolf as long as you're not a lone wolf as in you simply don't have ANY friends at all. But I never did/wanted to do bar review, or overseas trips with a bunch of people who seemed terrible. I think best case scenario for me was to have a few friends, more people that I could chit-chat or talk to, and a lot of people I might smile at or say "hey" to as I passed them. I think too many friends can be a distraction, and a time waster.

By second semester, you should have an idea of who is not a douche in your class. I knew from the first day that me and that guy wearing his trucker hat to the side weren't going to be friends.

z0mbiecatz1234 wrote:

unlicensedpotato wrote:It sounds like the main issue is that your classmates are stressful to be around. I can't imagine any situation more stressful than going to a T25 where good jobs are possible but striking out is likely for a decent chunk of the class. Honestly, just completely avoid them. Don't let them dictate what career you choose. If you don't like legal issues, that is something different entirely.

I think the people in the profession as well as classmates are definitely a part of the problem because I simply don't fit with their personalities. Sadly, I truly feel I have never met more selfish assholes in my life. No doubt I have met some seriously caring and nice people... It is absolutely not the norm. I can say the same about the practicing attorneys I have met (for the exception of one particularly nice biglaw guy I met once). I know there are assholes in every profession but it sure seems more common in the legal profession. My classmates absolutely make me sick... Smiling and cheering on the inside when they see others trip up or "fail" at something. I have tried using your advice but I wonder if there's a point where others' negativity will be too much.

Out of curiosity, did you consider transferring? It's just strange to me that the majority of students are assholes and that only a few are nice/considerate people. I'm at a T25 and while there definitely are a few jerks, most students are just normal people struggling together to survive law school lol

You say in a different post that you were a "lone wolf" - Maybe you focused too much on the dicks in your class and then overgeneralized and assumed that the majority of your class are jerks too. I'm going to echo other people's advice and say focus on those people who you found were cool to be around. In my opinion, I think it may color the way you view the other students too and it may give you a more positive perspective.

Also, I'm not blaming you in any way because I don't know what your experience has been after starting law school, but I find that blanket generalizations such as lawyers are selfish, overprivileged, argumentative assholes to be kind of offensive. Maybe I'm lucky, but I have only met a few bad eggs who fit this stereotype.

Try volunteering at a Legal Aid Foundation. This can be a rewarding experience and a reminder that lawyers are social engineers and not social parasites.

ek5dn wrote:

z0mbiecatz1234 wrote:

unlicensedpotato wrote:It sounds like the main issue is that your classmates are stressful to be around. I can't imagine any situation more stressful than going to a T25 where good jobs are possible but striking out is likely for a decent chunk of the class. Honestly, just completely avoid them. Don't let them dictate what career you choose. If you don't like legal issues, that is something different entirely.

I think the people in the profession as well as classmates are definitely a part of the problem because I simply don't fit with their personalities. Sadly, I truly feel I have never met more selfish assholes in my life. No doubt I have met some seriously caring and nice people... It is absolutely not the norm. I can say the same about the practicing attorneys I have met (for the exception of one particularly nice biglaw guy I met once). I know there are assholes in every profession but it sure seems more common in the legal profession. My classmates absolutely make me sick... Smiling and cheering on the inside when they see others trip up or "fail" at something. I have tried using your advice but I wonder if there's a point where others' negativity will be too much.

Out of curiosity, did you consider transferring? It's just strange to me that the majority of students are assholes and that only a few are nice/considerate people. I'm at a T25 and while there definitely are a few jerks, most students are just normal people struggling together to survive law school lol

You say in a different post that you were a "lone wolf" - Maybe you focused too much on the dicks in your class and then overgeneralized and assumed that the majority of your class are jerks too. I'm going to echo other people's advice and say focus on those people who you found were cool to be around. In my opinion, I think it may color the way you view the other students too and it may give you a more positive perspective.

Also, I'm not blaming you in any way because I don't know what your experience has been after starting law school, but I find that blanket generalizations such as lawyers are selfish, overprivileged, argumentative assholes to be kind of offensive. Maybe I'm lucky, but I have only met a few bad eggs who fit this stereotype.

You bring up a great point. I would be lying if I said I didn't generalize all students at least sometimes. I'm going to change my outlook this year and be more positive. Thank you for your reply.

brorepresentation1 wrote:Try volunteering at a Legal Aid Foundation. This can be a rewarding experience and a reminder that lawyers are social engineers and not social parasites.

Great advice. Thank you!

UPDATE: I am NOT dropping out. I was having one of those days (or weeks). I'm feeling much more positive now.

Your information on the salary of dental hygienists is inaccurate. There is serious downward pressure on hygienist compensation due to reduced compensation from insurance companies and too many new hygienists graduating from newer less rigorous programs. Some hygienists make less than 20
dollars per hour. FYI this is reflected in my own practice. I still pay very high wages but doubt my associate will be able to continue my compensation
levels. ( I lurk here as my daughter is about to be a 1l at a t 10). She asked me to look at the site when her admissions offers began to come in and I have continued to lurk as I find it interesting.

zihua wrote:Your information on the salary of dental hygienists is inaccurate. There is serious downward pressure on hygienist compensation due to reduced compensation from insurance companies and too many new hygienists graduating from newer less rigorous programs. Some hygienists make less than 20
dollars per hour. FYI this is reflected in my own practice. I still pay very high wages but doubt my associate will be able to continue my compensation
levels. ( I lurk here as my daughter is about to be a 1l at a t 10). She asked me to look at the site when her admissions offers began to come in and I have continued to lurk as I find it interesting.

That figures. It's a figure I pulled from a couple websites. I've decided not to go that route and finish up the law degree. I wish your daughter the best of luck!

z0mbiecatz1234 wrote:

brorepresentation1 wrote:Try volunteering at a Legal Aid Foundation. This can be a rewarding experience and a reminder that lawyers are social engineers and not social parasites.

Great advice. Thank you!

UPDATE: I am NOT dropping out. I was having one of those days (or weeks). I'm feeling much more positive now.

I'm glad to hear this! Best of luck!

brorepresentation1 wrote:

z0mbiecatz1234 wrote:

brorepresentation1 wrote:Try volunteering at a Legal Aid Foundation. This can be a rewarding experience and a reminder that lawyers are social engineers and not social parasites.

Great advice. Thank you!

UPDATE: I am NOT dropping out. I was having one of those days (or weeks). I'm feeling much more positive now.

I'm glad to hear this! Best of luck!

Thank you very much! And thank you again for the advice!

z0mbiecatz1234 wrote:

brorepresentation1 wrote:Try volunteering at a Legal Aid Foundation. This can be a rewarding experience and a reminder that lawyers are social engineers and not social parasites.

Great advice. Thank you!

UPDATE: I am NOT dropping out. I was having one of those days (or weeks). I'm feeling much more positive now.

LOL, I had those at least once a semester.