Top Law Schools

I just finished my first law school exam - Torts. I didn't hate it, but I didn't love it, either. I analyzed most of the problems in the fact pattern, but I realized immediately afterwards that I completely missed an issue (intentional infliction of emotional distress - how could I have forgotten that?!). Anyhow, I hope I did alright; I know I completely screwed myself over on the midterm two months ago. I misread the fact pattern and mixed up the plaintiffs. Also, I decided to go ham on the topic, as I had not previously learned the IRAC method to organizing exams.

I submitted my second and final memo last month. I earned a B on the first one. I can't imagine anything more than a B+ on the second one. I'm trying to master these skills, but it's happening slower than I expected.

I attend a public law school that used to be held in high regard. Unfortunately, our US News ranking has continually slipped, going from the mid 20's to the low 50's. While I know better than to lose sleep over some magazine's assessment of my school, I cannot ignore the school's employment statistics, which too, have slipped. 66.2% of last year's graduates obtained a paying job within 9 months. While 2/3 isn't exceptionally bad (especially in this bleak legal market), I have spoken with multiple graduates who say that unless you're in the ten percent of your class, you have no hope at landing a job with decent pay. This appears to be the consensus across the wide network of online forums. While I know I am better off spending my time studying for my next exam, I cannot simply ignore what everyone is saying. People who were in my shoes five years ago are telling me that if I don't finish in the top ten percent here, I will have thrown it all away.

Unlike many of my classmates, who are convinced they can buckle down and Adderall their way to the top of the class, I will not lie to myself. I honestly do not think I can finish within the top ten percent after the end of 1L year. I have some reasons for this - I have moved apartments three times over the past semester. I was in an Air BnB place for a month before finding an apartment, which I subsequently left after two weeks because a fire caused significant damage to the building. I am back in an Air BnB place and will be here until the end of next semester.

More importantly, I have been unable to focus due to my father's recent diagnosis of skin cancer. I am constantly anxious, worried, and unable to focus on my studies. I have spoken to the student services at my school about this. They did nothing other than have me speak to a therapist once a week.

In spite of this, I will not make excuses and I hold myself completely accountable for my median performance so far. Yes, I say median - not poor. I feel I have been doing "alright" in school thus far, but the thing is, "alright" is not enough. I should have found a way to deal with my anxiety. I should have studied more. I should have learned to cite properly in the first memo for LWR. This is my fault.

I am on the cusp of finishing my first semester of law school and I am already feeling regret. I have 15k in student debt from my undergrad, and this now-T2 school offered me a $25k/year scholarship. The remaining 50k/year comes from federal loans.

This weekend will mark one year since I took the LSAT. That was the only time I took it, and I scored a 158. I was and still am convinced I could have done better. Not only that, I was convinced I hurt my chances of admission to many top schools by waiting until March to apply. Nonetheless, I purchased more LSAT prep books and started working through practice exams again.

In May, I got into the school that I am currently at. It wasn't my top choice, but it wasn't a safety either. Tuition here is 45k (in-state price!) plus 30k for living expenses (city living!). I convinced myself I would not attend this school unless they gave me a hefty scholarship. I asked them for one and they gave me the $25k. I asked for more but they refused.

This was the only school that accepted me and gave me any kind of scholarship. I still wanted to reject it, but I felt bad. My family made me feel bad. My boyfriend made me feel bad. My bosses and coworkers - who idolized this school as if it were HYS - made me feel bad.

That was my mistake - feeling bad. Feeling bad made me accept the scholarship and enroll here. I felt I could power my way to the top 5% and transfer to a better school. I realize now how short-sighted this was - and how gross of an over-estimate I made of my skills.

Based on the employment statistics and the relatively-small scholarship I received, I feel I am not getting my money's worth. Right now, I do not feel I will receive a large return on my investment.

So here I am - during finals week of my first semester of 1L. My fees have just been paid for next semester. I am wishing I had never come here, but I cannot change my past. All I can do is prevent myself from digging my grave any deeper.

Here is the thing above it all - I love the law. I worked as a paralegal for three years, and the ideas of public service, rule and order, and honestly, making a ton of money, are what brought me to law school. I know I can do better, on the LSAT and in law school. I feel burned out - I want to take a few years and mature myself intellectually and personally.

I will stick it out for one more semester. I will not be disillusioned. If I continue to be median - which I most likely will - then I will not lie to myself and say it will get better. I would then take a leave of absence and watch over my father. Maybe, if I feel it is right, I will come back and finish my JD here. Perhaps I will drop out completely, work close to home for two or three years, then hire an LSAT tutor and take the test again. Hopefully I can score significantly higher. If so, then I will reapply to schools, and make a much better choice about where I go and for how much money.

I realize I will lose things if I drop out. In addition to the nine months I will have lost, I will also lose contacts, the few friends I made, and above all - $50k. Additionally, I am certain that some of my family, friends, and classmates will label me a "quitter." But I don't care what they say. On balance, all that seems like nothing compared to what I will face when I graduate: the poor employment prospects and the $165,000 in total student debt.

I want to know what this forum thinks. Am I disillusioned for wanting to drop out?

Dropping out may or may not be a good idea, but I would advise that making a decision while this close to the exams is likely to be a bad idea.

Other than taking a look at the drop by date for the following semester and considering what you would do if you are not in law school, you should back burner all the rest of it for now.

I think the problem is if you finish the first year you don't get to start over, you have to transfer and finish the last two somewhere else (unless maybe you wait like 5 years or something, something like that). I think if you finish your first year at Hastings, you're locked in unless you transfer out. Definitely check on that though.

Can you take a leave of absence while you ponder this some more? Taking a semester off could be a nice compromise and give you time to pull a plan together. You could also study the LSAT during that time to see if scoring higher than 158-ish is possible for you.

What do you want out of law school? You mention a lot about "worth" and "value," but what do you really want? What field do you want to work in? What is the minimum salary you could earn for law school to be worth it?

It's not abnormal to feel disillusioned after your first round of exams. In fact, your fall grades tend not to be particularly indicative of how you're going to do overall. However, it sounds like your issues are a bit deeper. What happens if you graduate and have to scrap around for a year or two before landing a $55k a year job? Is law school worth it for that outcome? What about if you get $70k directly out of law school, but you won't get to 6-figures for 7 or 8 years? Once you decide what is worth it to you, go take a look at your school's numbers and your Fall 1L grades, and see how likely you are to hit your minimum "worth it" job. If it's a 20% chance, drop out. If it's 80%, stick it out.

You shouldn't think about it until you're finished with exams. In the event you decide not to drop out all thinking about it now would do is depreciate the value of your investment. You should do something unrelated to school or work until you're able to focus on the next exam.

totesTheGoat wrote:What do you want out of law school? You mention a lot about "worth" and "value," but what do you really want? What field do you want to work in? What is the minimum salary you could earn for law school to be worth it?

It's not abnormal to feel disillusioned after your first round of exams. In fact, your fall grades tend not to be particularly indicative of how you're going to do overall. However, it sounds like your issues are a bit deeper. What happens if you graduate and have to scrap around for a year or two before landing a $55k a year job? Is law school worth it for that outcome? What about if you get $70k directly out of law school, but you won't get to 6-figures for 7 or 8 years? Once you decide what is worth it to you, go take a look at your school's numbers and your Fall 1L grades, and see how likely you are to hit your minimum "worth it" job. If it's a 20% chance, drop out. If it's 80%, stick it out.

These are good questions, ones that I am unsure of the answer to. I came in thinking I would be a "big law or bust" kind of girl, but I have reconsidered since I enrolled here.

I thought I knew what I wanted, but my courses, court visits, and overall experience thus far have caused me to rethink these issues.

BigZuck wrote:I think the problem is if you finish the first year you don't get to start over, you have to transfer and finish the last two somewhere else (unless maybe you wait like 5 years or something, something like that). I think if you finish your first year at Hastings, you're locked in unless you transfer out. Definitely check on that though.

I've read about this in other posts. But I couldn't find anything on LSAC that says anything about this. Would it be an ABA rule?

oregongirl117 wrote:

BigZuck wrote:I think the problem is if you finish the first year you don't get to start over, you have to transfer and finish the last two somewhere else (unless maybe you wait like 5 years or something, something like that). I think if you finish your first year at Hastings, you're locked in unless you transfer out. Definitely check on that though.

I've read about this in other posts. But I couldn't find anything on LSAC that says anything about this. Would it be an ABA rule?

There is an ABA rule that you have to do two years at your degree-granting institution, so you can "study away" as a visitor for up to one year or go abroad for two semesters, but not more.

I also immediately pegged your school as Hastings. I did a lot of research and found that the money they were offering was not enough given bleak employment stats.

You need to focus on getting through finals and doing well. Try to put everything out of your mind until mid-December. You will then have a few weeks to think about things. When you are thinking about things, ask yourself some of the questions that people are telling you here--are you merely ticking a box by going to LS? Did it seem like a logical next step or just a way out from the job you were at? Are there any areas of law that truly interest you? There's no shame in "stopping out" too. I would see if you maybe should take a LOA, knowing that means you'd need to get a job and whatnot. Also whether your school would hold your scholly if you took leave. Good luck. Freaking out about all of this during exams is not a good time and you need to just focus, then do the whole "what I am I doing with my life?" analysis later.

Whatever you end up doing, please don't edit out this post. People making this same decision should really have the opportunity to see it.

I'd wait till finals settle down, you get grades, look into that aba rule and then make your call, this is a stressful time for everyone and I'd avoid rushing it. That said, you raise a lot of very good points for dropping out.

I bet your Dad is proud of you and would you to finish. I'm sorry that is going on in your life, but you say you like the law, so just keep chugging along and see how your grades turn out - you truly cannot know how you did until you see the grades.

And as everyone said--just focus on exams right now. Do your best now and decide the next step once you've got some grades and perspective. And its cliche to say but lawschool IS NOT legal practice. Lots of people who hate lawschool end up as good lawyers.

My advice is to set these concerns aside and focus on exams lest your anxiety create a self-fulfilling prophecy. It is simply too early for you to be able to make an informed decision about your future in law. Good luck.

Unlike many others attending law schools, it seems that you might actually like law/law practice. The biglaw or bust mentality might be ill-advised given your interests. If you're thinking about PI, then check and see what the terms of your loan are, and determine if you would be willing to live with that payment schedule.

I second the comments above that I think there is more going on than job prospects/a bad test day, so would be helpful to try to separate those sentiments. FWIW, everyone thinks they screwed up on their first round of finals. Sometimes they did, and sometimes they are at the top of the curve. When you're first starting, you have no frame of reference for the novelty of this type of test (probably), so it's not really helpful to speculate.

Regarding taking time off, it might not be a bad idea. I would see how your grades come back, and determine what your tuition reimbursement date is (e.g. you get grades on 1/30 and you can get reimbursed for your 2nd semester tuition if you drop out by 2/1) for a bit more data on this. Wouldn't let the debt guide your decision if you're sticking with it just b/c of sunk costs. Plenty of other jobs and/or cheaper programs (PM me if you want to chat about that).

Hey OP,

PM me if you want to talk further. Just a little background...

In my first semester of law school, I finished in the top 18%. I definitely thought I was going to do much better in 2nd semester, since I felt like I had law school figured out. But during winter break, I went through a medical incident, which significantly altered my second semester -wasn't life threatening, but pretty serious. My grades and my life suffered. I finished finals and took a one year leave of absence immediately after, and I would have made that leave permanent had my family not made me promise to re-consider again a year later.

In my time off, I had my condition treated, addressed certain issues in my life, and did a lot of soul searching. When it came time to make a decision, I knew I wanted to go back and finish up. Best choice of my life. I can't say I love practicing law, but I am pretty happy with where I am at right now. I most likely would have kicked myself if I had left and never looked back.

You don't have to leave law school right away, you can take a leave of absence and decide after your leave is up. Maybe you just need to step back, deal with whatever is in front of you, and make a decision without too many external factors pressuring you one way or the other.

Two more things:

1. You will not know your overall performance until grades come out. You can guess all you want, but you cannot predict how well/poorly your classmates do.

2. LRW is hardly indicative of your overall ranking/law school performance. I was median in LRW both semesters and ended up top 20%.

Push through, do your best. Once your grades come out, deliberate then.

Agreeing on the "wait until after your grades come out" but honestly, your grades won't matter very much. You're not getting biglaw either way from Hastings, so the question becomes would you rather cut your losses, maybe retake the LSAT, and come back in a few years, or plow forward and take a non-biglaw spot.

While I'd never tell a 0L to do what you did (non-full ride at a T2), your situation may not be as bad as you think. If you feel like you could be happy at a smaller DA or PD office in (northern) California, I'd tell you to start gunning for that ASAP. Alameda County DA does OCI at your school, and SF County takes 1L interns for sure. Most of the nearby counties except for San Mateo and I think Contra Costa take interns on a fairly regular basis. Find a county you don't mind gunning for during 2L and 3L, and then ride the PAYE -> PSLF train to sweet sweet loan forgiveness.

ManoftheHour wrote:Two more things:

1. You will not know your overall performance until grades come out. You can guess all you want, but you cannot predict how well/poorly your classmates do.

2. LRW is hardly indicative of your overall ranking/law school performance. I was median in LRW both semesters and ended up top 20%.

Push through, do your best. Once your grades come out, deliberate then.

To add some anecdata, I hit Median for LRW, and was top 2%. It is NOT at all a predictor.

twenty wrote:Agreeing on the "wait until after your grades come out" but honestly, your grades won't matter very much. You're not getting biglaw either way from Hastings, so the question becomes would you rather cut your losses, maybe retake the LSAT, and come back in a few years, or plow forward and take a non-biglaw spot.

While I'd never tell a 0L to do what you did (non-full ride at a T2), your situation may not be as bad as you think. If you feel like you could be happy at a smaller DA or PD office in (northern) California, I'd tell you to start gunning for that ASAP. Alameda County DA does OCI at your school, and SF County takes 1L interns for sure. Most of the nearby counties except for San Mateo and I think Contra Costa take interns on a fairly regular basis. Find a county you don't mind gunning for during 2L and 3L, and then ride the PAYE -> PSLF train to sweet sweet loan forgiveness.

And this is good advice.

In order to decide whether to drop out, you need to honestly think about your alternatives. Can you get a 40-50k a year job if you applied for one now?

Also, finish finals as hard as possible, leave it all on the test and then decide. Your thoughts of doing so now will impede your potential to do well.

Look at what you are doing now and see if there is anything you can be doing more? studying longer? going to tutors? speaking with professors?

Finally, you need to have an honest discussion with yourself and really figure out if you can mentally stick out the fact that there is a low probability of finding "gainful employment" (whatever you decide that is). You have to be able to wake up daily, put your all in and be able to deal with the risk that you may potentially be wasting 3 years out of the job force to either A.) make what you could make now, B.) be unemployed/underemployed, or C.) Possibly not like law practice.

I dropped out after my 1L year. I got a job where i make within 10k of the non-big law lawyers in my city. I wish i could have dropped after 1st semester, but i was in a dorm, didnt have money saved to find an apartment instantly upon withdrawal, so I had to do what I had to do. After my first semester i was lower 33%-50%, so literally one grade below median. However, I could not deal psychologically with knowing that if i was outside the top 20% of students (probably moreso 10%), that I may be flushing 3 years in a classroom learning non-applicable skills/making myself overqualified for entry level jobs+ Federal Loans + Studying for a bar exam (that there is no guarantee that I would pass) + Ending up unemployed. It would have drove me crazy. So I cut my losses and left.

If you are decent with numbers, look into if you can transfer over to your schools Masters in Accounting program (they seem to be receptive to 1Ls who are decent with numbers). Or another masters degree in business (only do MBA if they have recruiters coming to your school that you would not mind working for and you have decent experience)

I would drop out, but certainly not during finals. This is too stressful/emotional a time to make this kind of decision.

I posted a dropping out thread around finals last semester and I appreciated hearing from people who had (and hadn't) and their various reasons. I ended up dropping out, so I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents here.

I was slightly above median after first semester 1L, but I had known since about October that law wasn't right for me. I went into it for money and because I didn't know what else to do. I quickly realized, after doing research and talking to practicing lawyers, that my rank at a top 50-60 law school wasn't going to secure me the type of income I had hoped for.

So I took a leap of faith, dropped out, and searched for a job. It took 3 months (this time period was tough on my relationships), but I finally landed a job in e-commerce making 62k - more than the median starting salary at my law school. Yeah, telling people I dropped out sucked sometimes. Mainly because a lot of people still think the legal profession is a sure-fire path to prestige and wealth. But personally, I am so much happier. I realized that law school had put me into a depression, something I'd never experienced up until that point in my life. Now, I'm doing something that interests me, and I don't have crippling debt or a poor work/life balance lingering over me.

For anyone reading this thread with the same thoughts, take some time to seriously contemplate why you're in law school. I had never quit anything in my life. And it made it so hard to come to the decision. But I realized I would be better off learning from a mistake (attending law school) while it was still minor, rather than being stubborn and finishing just to say I did when I knew it wasn't right for me.