deletd Forum

[artistar]

My answer: Yes, this place is filled with a lot of elitist advice. I've seen threads where people are telling others to not go to, say, the #11 USN rated school because it's a waste of time and money. The advice is always to study more and snag that 174+ LSAT and attend a top 5 with a fully funded scholarship. What a pipe dream. I think TLS advice is sometimes helpful, but oftentimes self-serving. If you want to knock out your competition tell everyone else law school is not for them.

How certain are you that graduating from Michigan with $275k-$300k debt is a good life plan?

Where are you getting $300K from? I just googled Michigan's tuition at $28K per year and estimated COL expenses at $18K per year. That's an estimate of $138,000 without any financial aid.

*edit for typo

[Elston Gunn]

My answer: Yes, this place is filled with a lot of elitist advice. I've seen threads where people are telling others to not go to, say, the #11 USN rated school because it's a waste of time and money. The advice is always to study more and snag that 174+ LSAT and attend a top 5 with a fully funded scholarship. What a pipe dream. I think TLS advice is sometimes helpful, but oftentimes self-serving. If you want to knock out your competition tell everyone else law school is not for them.

How certain are you that graduating from Michigan with $275k-$300k debt is a good life plan?

Where are you getting $300K from? I just googled Michigan's tuition at $28K per year and estimated COL expenses at $18K per year. That's an estimate of $135,000 without any financial aid.

In-state changes things a lot. (I'm assuming that's where you're getting $28k.) But the vast majority of people going to Michigan are not in-state, and you're forgetting interest, which is huge, especially when you're taking out out-of-state sticker, which will consist mostly of GradPLUS loans. Michigan's lower CoL helps a bit, but NYU sticker is no joke $325k at repayment now.

[artistar]

My answer: Yes, this place is filled with a lot of elitist advice. I've seen threads where people are telling others to not go to, say, the #11 USN rated school because it's a waste of time and money. The advice is always to study more and snag that 174+ LSAT and attend a top 5 with a fully funded scholarship. What a pipe dream. I think TLS advice is sometimes helpful, but oftentimes self-serving. If you want to knock out your competition tell everyone else law school is not for them.

How certain are you that graduating from Michigan with $275k-$300k debt is a good life plan?

Where are you getting $300K from? I just googled Michigan's tuition at $28K per year and estimated COL expenses at $18K per year. That's an estimate of $135,000 without any financial aid.

In-state changes things a lot. (I'm assuming that's where you're getting $28k.) But the vast majority of people going to Michigan are not in-state, and you're forgetting interest, which is huge, especially when you're taking out out-of-state sticker, which will consist mostly of GradPLUS loans. Michigan's lower CoL helps a bit, but NYU sticker is no joke $325k at repayment now.

I went with the out-of-state tuition at nearly $28K. In state is similiar at $26K.

We're not talking about NYU, you mentioned Michigan.

Let's also talk about how you're talking out of your ass, quoting prices that you apparently know nothing about. This is a huge problem on TLS. The bigger problem is that newbies listen.

[Elston Gunn]

I went with the out-of-state tuition at nearly $28K. In state is similiar at $26K.

We're not talking about NYU, you mentioned Michigan.

Let's also talk about how you're talking out of your ass, quoting prices that you apparently know nothing about. This is a huge problem on TLS. The bigger problem is that newbies listen.

Are you seriously doing this? See here. You are apparently quoting the price per semester. UM estimates $74,703 per year including CoL, before interest. If you think any T14 law school has a $28k per year tuition then you have very little familiarity with law schools.

[03152016]

mich is a fair bit cheaper than nyu
nyu stanford and cls are all $315k and change estimated debt at repayment

but art you have to factor in loan fees, interest, deferment

also i do not believe mich is 28k per year
can you link to your source

[artistar]

I went with the out-of-state tuition at nearly $28K. In state is similiar at $26K.

We're not talking about NYU, you mentioned Michigan.

Let's also talk about how you're talking out of your ass, quoting prices that you apparently know nothing about. This is a huge problem on TLS. The bigger problem is that newbies listen.

Are you seriously doing this? See here. You are apparently quoting the price per semester. UM estimates $74,703 per year including CoL, before interest. If you think any T14 law school has a $28k per year tuition then you have very little familiarity with law schools.

You're right. I'm on my phone and didn't see the per semester tidbit. I'll take the blame for that. But now we're up to $210K roughly including living expenses. If we're not counting any scholarships, I also wouldn't count interest. It's not $135, but it's not $300K either.

[03152016]

dude elston said mich was 275-300k
mich sticker isn't far from 275 at repayment

[Elston Gunn]

You're right. I'm on my phone and didn't see the per semester tidbit. I'll take the blame for that. But now we're up to $210K roughly including living expenses. If we're not counting any scholarships, I also wouldn't count interest. It's not $135, but it's not $300K either.

Okay, let's not talk about the interest and just think of it as you paying $3,301 a month (calculator here) for the next 10 years of your life.

I'm not even saying it's always a terrible idea, but acting like it's damning of TLS that people advise against it just reflects not understanding the real implications here IMO.

[BigZuck]

My answer: Yes, this place is filled with a lot of elitist advice. I've seen threads where people are telling others to not go to, say, the #11 USN rated school because it's a waste of time and money. The advice is always to study more and snag that 174+ LSAT and attend a top 5 with a fully funded scholarship. What a pipe dream. I think TLS advice is sometimes helpful, but oftentimes self-serving. If you want to knock out your competition tell everyone else law school is not for them.

No

If you think people suggest retaking so as to avoid Michigan at sticker and hopefully snag a Hamilton at Columbia (or whatever) purely out of "elitism" then you clearly aren't comprehending what you're reading.

And knock out your competition? What in the world are you talking about? Why would people who are already in law school or practicing attorneys care if someone didn't go to law school?

Also you're way off on the money thing. Like, way off.

[Johann]

what i don't understand is that you keep talking about how terrible it is to go into law
but then act like it's a great solution for an underemployed 22 year old liberal arts grad
ignoring 3 yrs of opportunity costs

almost all of my friends majored in lib arts or performing/visual arts
and almost all of them are doing fine financially and in jobs a fuckton more fulfilling than law

Yeah you've got me here. My general thinking is people shouldn't rush into law as k-jd without exploring as good as today's economy is. I absolutely hated law a few months ago because I think my personality is pretty mismatched for it. I liked law school though. I've started not minding my job and actually have done a couple projects I liked this month so I'm trying to hold off on judging until a bit longer.
But in general I think T14 people should pump the breaks a little and really think if law is for them. Just because you can be the best of good at something doesn't mean it's for you. And the big law path is brutal. I think the Tls mindset is a little bit heavy on basically saying okay let's make ridiculous barriers to the club and then whoever gets in will be praised and should Actually go. Yeah cool for some people. For others think it through.
For lower ranked schools and people, sometimes I just want to tell them look yeah you can go. Be prepared for what it's really about but it's your choice. I don't think they are making the smartest choice and I think my choice was very very dumb as I've pointed out before but I basically want to let them know that from a cost benefit analysis I can see them making the decision.
PAYE is an insanely dumb program causing skyrocketing law tuition with government backed loans, but it exists and it really does minimize a lot of the downside risk. So I'm wary that some people are simply advising with the goal in mind of shutting down law schools, which I'd like to see some close as well but in the right way, but certain people can benefit from schools still. I absolutely despise Paul campos movement because it's an attention whoring vendetta against law schools that's not afraid to gobble up casualties like the person making 35k a year in a dead end job considering law school. So fuck that guy. I don't agree with the loan programs, but the sole reason they are in place is because the government is placing an emphasis on education and encouraging people to take a risk and invest in themselves. Finally, I absolutely do believe people should invest in themselves and take risks. Part of my pushback is that tls ingrains a defeatist attitude of if you can't hit these marks you won't cut it. There's many ways to skin a pig and I've watched my peers and myself succeed where tls would have written us all off. If everyone were as contrarian and optimistic as me, I'd prolly dial it back a little but I don't think it's a bad thing to have one person who condones making informed, albeit slightly irrational, bets on oneself.

[03152016]

i'd prob agree that tls has a defeatist attitude, for better or for worse
and from a cba perspective, there are probably more schools worth attending than we acknowledge
i think someone from gulc did a study and concluded that ~50 schools had an anticipated positive ROI
and PAYE really does diminish the risk
tho a lot of times it's not that they won't see a positive ROI but that they're making a clearly suboptimal choice

take a reverse splitter in at a ttt
retaking and reapplying is probably the optimal choice. if they "bet on themselves" and take their current option they lock out options in their career before they've had any exposure to law (or even understand what lawyers do) and are probably leaving substantial money on the table
but they've likely underestimated their ability to master a four hour test and overestimated their ability to master three years of law school exams and a difficult job market
and they feel pressure to attend now, from parents, from a desire to keep up with peers, from their struggles to find a job
so i think it's important to raise the issue, and frankly i think the message probably won't penetrate unless there's at least some general consensus that the poster is screwing up and there's at least some brutal honesty about it

i don't think two dozen posters spamming a thread with "retake or don't go" is helpful
but i think blunt, non-sugarcoated talk from a dozen or so posters can be

[A. Nony Mouse]

What harm are you suggesting it causes? Specifically.

I still really really really want the OP to answer this.

[minnbills]

I'm torn on this. On one hand, TLS has been an awesome resource - which I think everyone can agree on. There is simply no other source out there than can provide the wealth of knowledge on law school/beginning a legal career/related topics. Not to mention how nice it's been to commiserate with people going through the same thing.

On the other hand, as someone who failed to achieve the biglaw goal, I can say I don't think I'll ever get over it. I attribute that to TLS. Many of the people I met in law school were oblivious to biglaw and related "prestigious" jobs coming into law school. I went to a T20 school, and honestly I was pretty surprised by that. Having been a TLSer since before law school, I definitely bought into the "biglaw or bust" mentality. And since failing to achieve my goals, it's warped my since of self-worth in a really bad way.

[Orlandipo]

You're right. I'm on my phone and didn't see the per semester tidbit. I'll take the blame for that. But now we're up to $210K roughly including living expenses. If we're not counting any scholarships, I also wouldn't count interest. It's not $135, but it's not $300K either.

Okay, let's not talk about the interest and just think of it as you paying $3,301 a month (calculator here) for the next 10 years of your life.

I'm not even saying it's always a terrible idea, but acting like it's damning of TLS that people advise against it just reflects not understanding the real implications here IMO.

Also, ignoring the interest is stupid. Interest is the difference between looking at your loans on the day you graduate and thinking "Okay. Here we go" and thinking "Wait what the fuck? HOW"

[mcmand]

..

[andrewchang]

I'm thinking about paying sticker at Michigan but I'm not sure how much it costs. Does anyone have any estimates?

[BigZuck]

What harm are you suggesting it causes? Specifically.

I still really really really want the OP to answer this.

I actually didn't have a specific answer in mind. I have my own personal critiques of law school, legal education, law firms, their hiring practices, law schools' relationship with law firms, (etc. etc., this list could go on forever). But I was curious to see what kind of self-reflection other users might engage in. For example, the kind of answer minnbills gave, which spoke to me in a big way. I didn't discover TLS until AFTER I got into the school I was aiming for, and I'm so glad for it because I would have been an anxious mess otherwise. Plus, I've avoided the site for similar reasons throughout 1L. But those aren't the only reasons to be critical of the culture here.

Although I think my question is profoundly important to ask, I actually don't want to get too specific about my critiques. I'd rather let people organically think of the issues they have and let that discussion unfold. If I try to shape the discussion it may end up unintentionally pushing out a viewpoint that had not been considered. So, in short, dear mod, I won't give you a straight answer.

(is a wind farter)

[jbagelboy]

On the other hand, as someone who failed to achieve the biglaw goal, I can say I don't think I'll ever get over it. I attribute that to TLS. Many of the people I met in law school were oblivious to biglaw and related "prestigious" jobs coming into law school. I went to a T20 school, and honestly I was pretty surprised by that. Having been a TLSer since before law school, I definitely bought into the "biglaw or bust" mentality. And since failing to achieve my goals, it's warped my since of self-worth in a really bad way.

this is shitty, and if anything, its the TLS problem. I'm sorry. It also hurts the community since a lot of non-biglaw (or equivalent) focused people won't feel welcomed or contribute, so we regurgitate a stale perspective. it's a sad mythology to perpetuate, even if guised in the "biglaw sucks" anthem and people getting chewed out for being unsympathetic to strike outs. From the sound of it though, your career will turn out more fulfilling and interesting than the average V100 summer associate.

[Elston Gunn]

I'm thinking about paying sticker at Michigan but I'm not sure how much it costs. Does anyone have any estimates?

If you assume 3.5% tuition increases, stay within their CoL estimate, and can stay on your parents' health insurance, it's $276k debt at repayment. I used the GTown calculator for that.

[Nomo]

TLS has saved thousands of people from borrowing 200k+ to go to law schools with bad employment stats, with the goal of becoming a space lawyer/human rights lawyer/treaty negotiator/etc. To the extent that TLS is obsessed with biglaw, I think that's mainly because biglaw is the only off sticker debt at the majority of law schools within 10 years.

For the most part, TLS isn't elitist. I don't see people looking down on those who get a 160 LSAT and go to mediocre law schools. No one says that Santa Clara students are stupid, that they don't deserve good jobs, etc. But most posters on TLS attempt to give honest advice about the career opportunities for whatever school an applicant is considering. That honesty might be dream-crushing, but its not elitist.

[jbagelboy]

TLS has saved thousands of people from borrowing 200k+ to go to law schools with bad employment stats, with the goal of becoming a space lawyer/human rights lawyer/treaty negotiator/etc. To the extent that TLS is obsessed with biglaw, I think that's mainly because biglaw is the only off sticker debt at the majority of law schools within 10 years.

For the most part, TLS isn't elitist. I don't see people looking down on those who get a 160 LSAT and go to mediocre law schools. No one says that Santa Clara students are stupid, that they don't deserve good jobs, etc. But most posters on TLS attempt to give honest advice about the career opportunities for whatever school an applicant is considering. That honesty might be dream-crushing, but its not elitist.

I mean, if we're honest about this community, sometimes people do spew stupid shit like this, either as an ad hominem response when a couple posters get into a catfight, or more subtlety by implication. There are oft-and-on posters who are just insufferable toolbags (I could name a few). And there are a few veteran posters who say straight up rude shit but they've earned the right to do so. I try to be conscientious but I've had my darker moments too.

More often though, honestly, it's not the regular posters that display elitism; it's the lurkers or new posters who come on here saying shit like "I must go to Harvard Law because it is my destiny", and TLS more often than not comes in to correct rather than encourage that attitude.

[A. Nony Mouse]

What harm are you suggesting it causes? Specifically.

I still really really really want the OP to answer this.

I actually didn't have a specific answer in mind. I have my own personal critiques of law school, legal education, law firms, their hiring practices, law schools' relationship with law firms, (etc. etc., this list could go on forever). But I was curious to see what kind of self-reflection other users might engage in. For example, the kind of answer minnbills gave, which spoke to me in a big way. I didn't discover TLS until AFTER I got into the school I was aiming for, and I'm so glad for it because I would have been an anxious mess otherwise. Plus, I've avoided the site for similar reasons throughout 1L. But those aren't the only reasons to be critical of the culture here.

Although I think my question is profoundly important to ask, I actually don't want to get too specific about my critiques. I'd rather let people organically think of the issues they have and let that discussion unfold. If I try to shape the discussion it may end up unintentionally pushing out a viewpoint that had not been considered. So, in short, dear mod, I won't give you a straight answer.

That's cool, but I don't feel the need to answer a fishing expedition.

[minnbills]

On the other hand, as someone who failed to achieve the biglaw goal, I can say I don't think I'll ever get over it. I attribute that to TLS. Many of the people I met in law school were oblivious to biglaw and related "prestigious" jobs coming into law school. I went to a T20 school, and honestly I was pretty surprised by that. Having been a TLSer since before law school, I definitely bought into the "biglaw or bust" mentality. And since failing to achieve my goals, it's warped my since of self-worth in a really bad way.

this is shitty, and if anything, its the TLS problem. I'm sorry. It also hurts the community since a lot of non-biglaw (or equivalent) focused people won't feel welcomed or contribute, so we regurgitate a stale perspective. it's a sad mythology to perpetuate, even if guised in the "biglaw sucks" anthem and people getting chewed out for being unsympathetic to strike outs. From the sound of it though, your career will turn out more fulfilling and interesting than the average V100 summer associate.

Thanks man

[Johann]

I'm torn on this. On one hand, TLS has been an awesome resource - which I think everyone can agree on. There is simply no other source out there than can provide the wealth of knowledge on law school/beginning a legal career/related topics. Not to mention how nice it's been to commiserate with people going through the same thing.

On the other hand, as someone who failed to achieve the biglaw goal, I can say I don't think I'll ever get over it. I attribute that to TLS. Many of the people I met in law school were oblivious to biglaw and related "prestigious" jobs coming into law school. I went to a T20 school, and honestly I was pretty surprised by that. Having been a TLSer since before law school, I definitely bought into the "biglaw or bust" mentality. And since failing to achieve my goals, it's warped my since of self-worth in a really bad way.

you got a clerkship lined up. You get another bite at the apple afterwards. Don't give up yet. Mass mail while clerking. Work your judges connections. I think you can crack into a big firm still - not the elite of the elite but one of the ILRG 350 or something - yeah.

[jbagelboy]

I'm torn on this. On one hand, TLS has been an awesome resource - which I think everyone can agree on. There is simply no other source out there than can provide the wealth of knowledge on law school/beginning a legal career/related topics. Not to mention how nice it's been to commiserate with people going through the same thing.

On the other hand, as someone who failed to achieve the biglaw goal, I can say I don't think I'll ever get over it. I attribute that to TLS. Many of the people I met in law school were oblivious to biglaw and related "prestigious" jobs coming into law school. I went to a T20 school, and honestly I was pretty surprised by that. Having been a TLSer since before law school, I definitely bought into the "biglaw or bust" mentality. And since failing to achieve my goals, it's warped my since of self-worth in a really bad way.

you got a clerkship lined up. You get another bite at the apple afterwards. Don't give up yet. Mass mail while clerking. Work your judges connections. I think you can crack into a big firm still - not the elite of the elite but one of the ILRG 350 or something - yeah.

But this shouldn't even be the message. That type of job is not necessary (unless you're drowning in debt).