Dropping out after 1L? Forum

[fenton]

Congratulations OP, Campos has taken up your cause over at http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/

[jk148706]

.

[onionz]

I doubt American would take you to court to get its money back if you dropped out. If you played your cards right and raised a huge stink, they would back off

Wouldn't they just sell it to debt collectors or hire them generally?

[PepperJack]

Why not try talking to them first? It's different than someone who transfers out. There, they use value acquired at American. Here, OP doesn't want to be a lawyer. They're basically strong arming kids into a career they don't want (scholarship indentured servitude).

It makes sense to talk to them before creating a big stink so that they don't get spiteful. The clause lists compelling circumstances as a reason to not have to repay, but if you do have to repay then it's all within 30 days. Technically, they could empty your bank accounts, and seize whatever possessions you have in your name. But I don't know if they would actually want to do this to somebody who isn't an a-hole to them. If they say no then you can raise a stink after, and try again. Much easier to go from nice to aggressive than from aggressive to nice.

And yes, they probably would sell the debt. Eventually, OP is going to have 40k in savings, but I don't think this would be student loan debt? It's a judgment so once OP declares bankruptcy, he'd be good?

[fenton]

I doubt American would take you to court to get its money back if you dropped out. If you played your cards right and raised a huge stink, they would back off

Wouldn't they just sell it to debt collectors or hire them generally?

I'm not an expert in the area (so I might be way off base) but I'm not sure this could be seen as a "debt" that could be sold to collectors because they didn't actually loan them any money. Rather this seems more like a contract that says if you drop out or transfer you have to pay us full tuition. If OP drops out, they would have a breach of contract claim, but it seems doubtful that American would pursue it. If they did, and they were awarded a judgment, they would definitely sell that judgment to a debt collector once they realized they just sued a 23 year old drop out who doesn't have any money.

[Elston Gunn]

I know this sounds crazy (and maybe it is), but if it's literally costing you nothing to actually attend classes, and you don't care about the being a lawyer, you could apply to full time/near full time jobs or internships that would benefit your career and just completely blow off school, except doing enough hornbooking, etc. to not fail. I actually know someone doing this currently, and out of state, though he's at Yale, and I'm sure it's a little different. You might even still end up median, and it sounds like you'd actually be financially better off than if you dropped out.

[BigZuck]

If he doesn't want to be a lawyer and just stays 2 more years for fear of having to pay back his scholarship, how does that help the school? It's not going to improve their TTTT employment stats because that's just another person not becoming a lawyer.

Also, in some small way he's costing the school in that it's a butt in the seats not paying tuition (although I'm sure that is virtually no cost to them- even if he wasn't there they would still have to pay professors and keep the lights on)

I'm sure I'm missing something but I don't see the school's motivation in wanting a person to get a JD that he doesn't have to pay for if he's not actually going to use it.

[PepperJack]

Has anyone considered that the entire purpose of the clause might be to discourage students from dropping out/transferring, and they have no intention of enforcing it? They probably get frustrated when the kids they offer full rides to do really well, and then transfer out so that they don't even reap the benefit of having their firm profile say American under education. OP may be able to get this waived in a 5 minute conversation before the hounds and ATL blow up over it.

[Elston Gunn]

If he doesn't want to be a lawyer and just stays 2 more years for fear of having to pay back his scholarship, how does that help the school? It's not going to improve their TTTT employment stats because that's just another person not becoming a lawyer.

Also, in some small way he's costing the school in that it's a butt in the seats not paying tuition (although I'm sure that is virtually no cost to them- even if he wasn't there they would still have to pay professors and keep the lights on)

I'm sure I'm missing something but I don't see the school's motivation in wanting a person to get a JD that he doesn't have to pay for if he's not actually going to use it.

Sounds like it's like that NYU PI scholarship--here's a full tuition scholarship that requires you to do PI for X years after graduation. I suppose they'd say they gave you the scholarship with the intention to contribute to society and designed to give these incentives, etc. Does still seem crazy they'd try to claw back from a drop out.

[fenton]

Technically, they could empty your bank accounts, and seize whatever possessions you have in your name.

Not until they get a judgment and an attachment. Also, certain things like homes (if you have a homestead exemption in your state) and ERISA qualified retirement accounts are safe from judgment creditor.

Eventually, OP is going to have 40k in savings, but I don't think this would be student loan debt? It's a judgment so once OP declares bankruptcy, he'd be good?

Not necessarily (see above) and possibly not until long after the SOL has run on their claim.

[fenton]

Has anyone considered that the entire purpose of the clause might be to discourage students from dropping out/transferring, and they have no intention of enforcing it? They probably get frustrated when the kids they offer full rides to do really well, and then transfer out so that they don't even reap the benefit of having their firm profile say American under education. OP may be able to get this waived in a 5 minute conversation before the hounds and ATL blow up over it.

This

[PepperJack]

I doubt American would take you to court to get its money back if you dropped out. If you played your cards right and raised a huge stink, they would back off

Wouldn't they just sell it to debt collectors or hire them generally?

I'm not an expert in the area (so I might be way off base) but I'm not sure this could be seen as a "debt" that could be sold to collectors because they didn't actually loan them any money. Rather this seems more like a contract that says if you drop out or transfer you have to pay us full tuition. If OP drops out, they would have a breach of contract claim, but it seems doubtful that American would pursue it. If they did, and they were awarded a judgment, they would definitely sell that judgment to a debt collector once they realized they just sued a 23 year old drop out who doesn't have any money.

Bro, you can sell anything at any point. Student loans from private lenders are being bought and sold all the time. They're selling their rights under the contract.

But the text of the clause says that the funds convert from a scholarship into a loan if the person drops out. It seems like OP never really got a scholarship in terms of not owing money, but has the tuition forgiven if he stays all 3 years. Otherwise, they're going to turn this into a loan. That's why he should speak to them first. Once they sell the contract to a private collector, OP is probably screwed.

[fenton]

I doubt American would take you to court to get its money back if you dropped out. If you played your cards right and raised a huge stink, they would back off

Wouldn't they just sell it to debt collectors or hire them generally?

I'm not an expert in the area (so I might be way off base) but I'm not sure this could be seen as a "debt" that could be sold to collectors because they didn't actually loan them any money. Rather this seems more like a contract that says if you drop out or transfer you have to pay us full tuition. If OP drops out, they would have a breach of contract claim, but it seems doubtful that American would pursue it. If they did, and they were awarded a judgment, they would definitely sell that judgment to a debt collector once they realized they just sued a 23 year old drop out who doesn't have any money.

Bro, you can sell anything at any point. Student loans from private lenders are being bought and sold all the time. They're selling their rights under the contract.

But the text of the clause says that the funds convert from a scholarship into a loan if the person drops out. It seems like OP never really got a scholarship in terms of not owing money, but has the tuition forgiven if he stays all 3 years. Otherwise, they're going to turn this into a loan. That's why he should speak to them first. Once they sell the contract to a private collector, OP is probably screwed.

Again, not my area, but I don't think you can sell your rights under a contract like that. Something about privity of contract and having standing to sue...it's been awhile since I took a bar exam. I think that once American sues, wins, and reduces their rights to a judgment, then they can sell that judgment to whomever. But before that, there's no privity of contract so the purchaser of American's rights under the contract couldn't sue OP for breach.

I also don't believe that having a contract that says "this is a scholarship, but if you drop out it becomes a loan" is a legally enforceable loan. Loans are regulated under a whole different set of rules than contracts. Again, I say this as a tax lawyer who finds this scenario interesting.

[PepperJack]

I don't see what the issue would be with turning it from a scholarship into a loan, because OP signed and read it. They're going to say the scholarship was consideration for OP committing 3 years to their prestigious institution, and that OP breached, and the damages for the breach are 45k/year. Maybe OP can cover by sending in a replacement student? I'm sure you could find some crack addict in an alleyway who'd love to study at American for 2 years. Maybe after Guantanamo gets shut down, you could help get the detainees shipped to AU.

In all seriousness, this clause ticks me off. How is someone who drops out of law school suddenly going to have 45k to pay them? It's obviously going to fall on the taxpayer. At least when they charge 45k/yr for a 10% chance of jobs they could say that they expected students would get good jobs, and can't control the economy. This clause, however, is them finding sly ways to burden society. If they don't want to give out scholarships, don't. Most people that go to American aren't capable of planning for possibly dropping out or thinking years ahead, and they have to know this.

AU's only value is as a transfer school. The top 10% can go to good schools, and produce good outcomes for themselves. What this clause basically says is if you come to our school your life will suck, and if you try to make it not suck, we'll sue you.