Law student "union" Forum

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JCougar

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Law student "union"

Post by JCougar » Wed Jul 02, 2014 6:13 pm

I've been daydreaming a lot at my PI volunteer-ship about how to force tuition back down to reasonable levels. It appears that our government has no plans to do anything about it, as Republicans' plan is to stomp their feet and do nothing, whereas Democrats only want to expand loan forgiveness. And while I prefer the latter over the former for the sake of protecting law graduates, it's still not sound public policy to spend what will amount to hundreds of billions of dollars bailing college students out of loans, when our cities and towns have far more pressing infrastructure needs. If we're spending a couple hundred thousand dollars bailing out the upper-middle class, that's a hundred thousand dollars that doesn't go into building affordable public housing, better transportation options, better healthcare, etc. And of course, even conservatives an libertarians should be livid that we're setting ourselves up for a budget bomb 10-20 years from now when all this loan forgiveness is due.

So no one is going to do anything about this but us. The ABA certainly isn't interested in anything that may cut highly-paid law dean and university professor positions. Law professors themselves have AALS, which is constantly lobbying for more student loan pork to be trickled up from poor students to wealthy law deans and professors. Law students have no bargaining power regarding the current situation, so nothing is ever done in their interests.

Obviously, you can't unionize students, as they are not employees, but you can build an organization that uses collective action to advocate in their interests. If students collectively decided to protest one year--say they would collectively refuse to sign their Fall FAFSA forms, unless tuition was reduced by X%, you would definitely see a bunch of universities start to listen. I'm sure there's a million people on here who will berate me and tell me that this is stupid and that it will never work--and I just have one thing to say to them: You are right, I am stupid, and this will probably never work. I am just bored and running out the clock on my day of "volunteering."

However, there are a few reasons why this will work. Namely:

1) When workers engage in collective action, there's a lot of potential replacements out there. It's easier to replace a worker, because there's almost always more workers than there are jobs. But if a student refuses to pay tuition, especially if they are upperclassmen, there's no pool of replacement students readily available for a school to admit instead.

2) A student pays the school, whereas the employer pays the employee. Thus, in the event of a "strike," it's the school losing money--not the students. The financial pressure is on the school to cave, not the students.

3) You don't even have to win majority support for collective action to have force. You don't have to win an election. If only 25% of students partook in this behavior, it would be devastating to a school's bottom line. And judging from how angry the students were at my school about tuition hikes, getting support from 25% of students would seem to be low-balling it. And I went to a "T20" school, so I'm pretty sure things are not better below that threshold. Most people still there after 1L seemed jaded and trapped by their sunk costs and/or the expectations of their families/friends, and probably would think of it as a favor to them if the law school kicked them out.

4) Law students are highly engaged online on Facebook, blogs, etc., which makes it much easier to recruit people to the cause. Also, joining in on the protest takes very little effort at all. Actually, it takes negative effort, since all you would have to do is collectively refuse to sign FAFSA forms for the upcoming year.

5) Everybody wants tuition to go down, including practicing lawyers (that can't afford to pay people enough to pay down debt) and a lot of law professors that actually have a twinge of self-awareness and a conscience. The problem is simply one of collective action: if one school alone lowers tuition, they put themselves at a competitive disadvantage. But if students were organized, the schools that DON'T lower tuition would be the ones at a disadvantage.

I'm sure there's a number of other reasons to deride this idea, but I feel like at least thinking about starting some organization to advocate for this is a better use of my time than what I'm currently doing right now--(i.e. the bar has been set pretty low). Law School Transparency has done a good job in and of itself on correcting the information imbalance out there about job prospects. But tuition is still to high at law schools, and it needs to go down fast. It's not good for anyone. And obviously, this idea can be expanded not just to law schools, but nearly every over-priced degree program out there, including undergrad degrees.

But the bottom line is that this:

Image

is unsustainable, unjust, and untenable in both the short-term and the long-term, and clearly nobody in charge is interested in doing anything about it. So we must.

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bearsfan23

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Re: Law student "union"

Post by bearsfan23 » Wed Jul 02, 2014 6:20 pm

I mean, I think you pretty much said it, this really isn't a law school problem its a problem with higher education in general. Tuition rates for every type of undergrad/grad/professional program have skyrocketed across the board b/c there is nobody to stop Shitboomers from running the greatest scam of all time.

FSK

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Re: Law student "union"

Post by FSK » Wed Jul 02, 2014 6:21 pm

Do it. I'd support you, and probably lend my time. I'm foaming-at-the-mouth pissed at the loan-rate increases that went into effect today.
Last edited by FSK on Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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LSL

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Re: Law student "union"

Post by LSL » Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:23 pm

Not that I don't appreciate the hustle, but yeah I think it's pretty dubious. Your efforts might be better placed with movements like these state plans popping up all over the place to guarantee college by requiring a small percentage (2%-6%) of whatever the person earns after they graduate instead.

Not sure it'd be considered for law students/grad students at the moment, but maybe that's where you push. This obviously does nothing to actually bring down the cost of attending, but it at least does work to get the debt monkey off the backs of young people.

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JCougar

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Re: Law student "union"

Post by JCougar » Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:33 pm

TLS wrote:Not that I don't appreciate the hustle, but yeah I think it's pretty dubious. Your efforts might be better placed with movements like these state plans popping up all over the place to guarantee college by requiring a small percentage (2%-6%) of whatever the person earns after they graduate instead.

Not sure it'd be considered for law students/grad students at the moment, but maybe that's where you push. This obviously does nothing to actually bring down the cost of attending, but it at least does work to get the debt monkey off the backs of young people.
It's possible that proposal could help a bit with stress of debt hanging over your head, but like you and the article said, it probably won't drive down tuition. And it might have some unintended consequences, such as incentivizing universities to focus only on higher-paying professions and ignoring programs like social work, etc. Of course, that could end up being a good thing if it forces universities to focus only on majors/grad programs where people actually get jobs, and not stuff like art history, etc.

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jenesaislaw

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Re: Law student "union"

Post by jenesaislaw » Thu Jul 03, 2014 11:56 am

We're working on a few ideas right now to put more bargaining power into the hands of prospective students. I'm interested in your ideas for law students. I'm skeptical, but I'm also about actions and results. Loop me in on anything. kyle@lawschooltransparency.com

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JCougar

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Re: Law student "union"

Post by JCougar » Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:49 pm

jenesaislaw wrote:We're working on a few ideas right now to put more bargaining power into the hands of prospective students. I'm interested in your ideas for law students. I'm skeptical, but I'm also about actions and results. Loop me in on anything. kyle@lawschooltransparency.com
Thanks. I basically just thought this up in the last week on a lark, so before taking any serious action, I'm researching what other options are out there, what it takes to start a non-profit, etc. I need to reflect on the plausibility of this. I actually thought of e-mailing you before you even posted this for tips on non-profit formation, etc.

I just don't see anything changing without collective action, and even though enrollment is going down, nominal tuition is not. And even if real tuition may be declining at some schools, the fact that nominal tuition is not still affects people with no merit scholarships, who have a reduced chance of success in the first place.

Individual schools are really handcuffed from initiating change, because if one school does it but nobody else does, it hurts that school in relation to others. I saw this with my own school in reporting job statistics honestly when no one else did, and people became mortified that we dropped 5 points in US News for a year. So we have a collective action problem that can only be solved through pressure that is system-wide. It's very clear that neither the ABA nor Congress is going to create that pressure.

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totesTheGoat

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Re: Law student "union"

Post by totesTheGoat » Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:54 pm

Here's what you're missing that is vital to the equation... economic incentive.

Asking students to refuse to pay after investing 1 or 2 years of their lives and 10s of thousands of dollars into a degree is extraordinarily disadvantageous, even if the goal is reduced tuition. Why? Because money is cheap and easy to borrow right now. Either I can stamp my feet and get kicked out of school, or I can borrow another 25k, put my head down, and get through to the end. Sure, there's some sunk cost fallacy built in, but that's how people think. 90%+ of students don't want to be a martyr, they just want to get through school without any problems and graduate into a decent paying job.

Second, the tuition prices are so high for the same reason. There's easy money, and thus there's a glut of demand (students who want to go to school). Even if you were to get 25% of students to protest (which is optomistic by an order of magnitude), there are 10 students standing in line with a similar resume and pocketbook open for every one who tanks their degree on a boycott. It would be quite a pyrrhic victory to make a stand on tuition, get kicked out of school, and get replaced by somebody else at no harm to the school, all in the name of principle.

You want to see tuition go way down? Cut the federal backing of student loans. Boom, immediately lenders are concerned about getting their money back (since it's not backed by the full faith and credit of the FedGov), interest rates go up, and schools have to compete with one another for the significantly reduced demand, as most students legitimately won't be able to afford the tuition at current rates. When there's no FedGov program writing a check behind the scenes, the incentive for students to keep their costs in check becomes much stronger, and that will force prices to come down.
if one school alone lowers tuition, they put themselves at a competitive disadvantage
How so? In fact they would be at a competitive advantage, assuming that students cared about costs. However, with easy FedGov dollars, students don't really care. They just sign the loan paperwork and cross their fingers for $150k out of school. Worst case, they just have the loan erased after a few years at $40k. Why would universities reduce their costs in that climate? They have no reason to! Students (except for a few who are boycotting) aren't choosing to forebear on school because they can get loans, and there are plenty more waiting in the wings for anybody to drop out due to boycott. Unions work terribly when there are 10 fully-qualified scabs for every union worker, and that's what you're proposing here.

Do some research into the compliance required for a college or university to be able to accept federal student loans as payment. It's staggering how much of your tuition goes to programs that have very little to nothing to do with your education.

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