PTSD and law school Forum

[paul554]

This is more geared towards veterans than others I suppose.

I’m approaching the end of my 1L year and I just can’t seem to care about law school. I have 0 debt, a full ride from the GI bill and no living expenses due to my wife working. The problem is I just can’t find any motivation. I have no employment lined up for the summer and honestly I don’t care.

After serving 6 years in the army with 3 combat deployments I just can’t seem to commit myself to law school. I’m in the top ¼ of my class, but I don’t study and only do the bare minimum of reading. I really want to care, but I know that even with minimum commitment I’ll still receive my degree. Since I have zero debt, this also eliminates my desire to work a “prestigious” job and my wife fully supports me going the solo route and hanging a shingle.

I’m curious if anyone else has this problem. Finals have arrived again and I hear twenty something kids talking about how hard and stressful this time is, and it makes me sick. When I was twenty we were convoying into Iraq during the initial push under the constant threat of IED’s and small arms fire. I honestly felt that as a gunner I was not going to make it out of there alive. In comparison law school is a cake walk that doesn’t even affect me. I could really use some advice now and would love to know how other vets managed to focus and get through this. Thanks.

[encore1101]

USMC, deployed to Iraq a few times as well.

Re-evaluate if you want to be a lawyer. And why.

I didn't have this problem because what I got from Iraq and being in the military is that I'm very lucky to be in the position I am. First, I had/have the opportunity to go to college and law school, whereas some of my other squad members, the idea of going to college was foreign to them. Their big plans after EAS was to go work on an oil rig or move back home and find some factory job, etc. Second, going to Iraq, you know what life is like over there. Born a sheep farmer, die a sheep farmer. Their life (comparatively) sucks compared to ours over here. Neither of my parents were white collar professionals, so going to Iraq really made me thankful that I have the opportunity via the Post 9/11 GI Bill and how US society works that I can be an attorney and don't have to follow in my parents' footsteps. From that perspective, I knew that if I sold myself short and just didn't try hard, I'd be wasting my opportunity.

As for your second point, your fellow students bitching, who cares if they do? Everyone bitches. It's a given. Just because they haven't gone what we've gone through, that makes their bitching invalid? It's relative to what they've been exposed to in life.

Your experience should be something that you can draw from, to motivate you and discipline you to study hard and not get demoralized when the night is long. Like you said, compared to getting your vehicle penetrated with an EFP, finals and studying aren't really a thing. But at this point, you're letting your experience work against you.

[FattyMcFatFat]

You a POG?

Regardless, the general "work ethic" (LOL) and "world view" (also sometimes LOL) of our generation are not acceptable mechanisms for calibrating expectations about pretty much anything. Our generation is a joke. It's perspective is irrelevant. Drink water drive on and stuff.

[paul554]

USMC, deployed to Iraq a few times as well.

Re-evaluate if you want to be a lawyer. And why.

I didn't have this problem because what I got from Iraq and being in the military is that I'm very lucky to be in the position I am. First, I had/have the opportunity to go to college and law school, whereas some of my other squad members, the idea of going to college was foreign to them. Their big plans after EAS was to go work on an oil rig or move back home and find some factory job, etc. Second, going to Iraq, you know what life is like over there. Born a sheep farmer, die a sheep farmer. Their life (comparatively) sucks compared to ours over here. Neither of my parents were white collar professionals, so going to Iraq really made me thankful that I have the opportunity via the Post 9/11 GI Bill and how US society works that I can be an attorney and don't have to follow in my parents' footsteps. From that perspective, I knew that if I sold myself short and just didn't try hard, I'd be wasting my opportunity.

As for your second point, your fellow students bitching, who cares if they do? Everyone bitches. It's a given. Just because they haven't gone what we've gone through, that makes their bitching invalid? It's relative to what they've been exposed to in life.

Your experience should be something that you can draw from, to motivate you and discipline you to study hard and not get demoralized when the night is long. Like you said, compared to getting your vehicle penetrated with an EFP, finals and studying aren't really a thing. But at this point, you're letting your experience work against you.

I love law school ironically, and I know that I want to be a lawyer. Like you, I'm also very thankful that I even have the oppurtunity to be in law school. I was an MP, and most of my comrades are in private security, loss prevention, and the lucky ones are local cops.

I guess my main problem is that I saw combat, a lot. People died as a result of me pulling the trigger. I also lost a lost of friends, the first guy I ever met in the army and considered a friend was shot in the neck by a sniper. He was stop lossed at the time and joked about how this extension would be the end of him.

I know what I want to accomplish in life, and I want to strive to achieve. The problem though is that I get so wrapped up in my past. I've gone to the VA and their solution is prescribe me a plethora of anti-what ever drugs and such. Ironcically, most of my law school comrades think I'm very well adjusted and normal. I supposes I just have no one to vent, or share with and I feel like all these emotions are building up inside me.

Edit: I guess my big thing is really focusing more on studying and such. Like I said I'm in the top 1/4 with barely doing any work. I feel that if I really applied myself I'd easily be in the top 5%, but the career opportunities are the same either way.

[paul554]

You a POG?

Yep. Non-grunt who did route security on Irish, along with PSD on a daily basis into Sadir city during OIF 1/2.

[FattyMcFatFat]

You a POG?

Yep. Non-grunt who did route security on Irish, along with PSD on a daily basis into Sadir city during OIF 1/2.

My old stomping grounds.

[Sgt Brody.]

OP, I have nothing to add as I am a 0l, but I just wanted to say hope it all works out for you, and you inspire me and Im sure a lot of people. Good luck!

[worldtraveler]

Not a veteran of the armed forces, but a vet of PTSD. I've struggled with similar feelings.

I don't think there is much wrong with the approach you're taking. I didn't work that hard in law school. One of the main problems I have in coping with PTSD is that my brain does not handle stress the way it used to, and running around like a maniac on journals and student activities didn't work for me. Neither did studying for hours at a time. I'd end up with nightmares again or worse, insomnia. So I just didn't work that hard and let my brain focus elsewhere and was a lot better off.

So if you don't want to work hard, don't do it. As long as you do the minimum and pass your exams, you're fine. Spend your energy elsewhere and think about what you really do want to do. If you want to go solo, spend some time into looking how to make that happen. There is no reason to chase prestige just because you think you need to.

I would also check if there is any kind of PTSD support group or group for vets on campus. There are some people who just don't get it and will never get it, and it's helpful to spend time with people who just understand what the hell is going on inside your brain. It also sounds like your wife is pretty supportive, so vent to her if you need to.

[BigRob]

Oh, thank god. I thought this thread was going to be a 1L claiming law school gave her PTSD.

Carry on.

[arklaw13]

Oh, thank god. I thought this thread was going to be a 1L claiming law school gave her PTSD.

Carry on.

[brorepresentation1]

What would you like these law students to talk about instead of how stressful the environment is?

[encore1101]

What would you like these law students to talk about instead of how stressful the environment is?

What school do you go to where the only thing students talk about to each other is how stressful law school is?

[First Offense]

What would you like these law students to talk about instead of how stressful the environment is?

What school do you go to where the only thing students talk about to each other is how stressful law school is?

I think that's every law school.

[BigRob]

I've been watching The Walking Dead season 4. It makes studying for finals easier when I compare how good my life is as compared to the lives of those in a post-apocalyptic dramatic horror series. (I used to just compare my life to people living in present-day Africa, but this is slightly better.) Think a closed book Civ Pro exam is stressful? Try stabbing your zombified best friend in the face with a pocket knife after his throat was ripped out before your eyes.

These are the things I think about.

[encore1101]

What would you like these law students to talk about instead of how stressful the environment is?

What school do you go to where the only thing students talk about to each other is how stressful law school is?

I think that's every law school.

As the sole conversation topic? So your classmates don't talk about social plans, subject material of classes, personal lives, work, but just how stressful school is?

[First Offense]

What would you like these law students to talk about instead of how stressful the environment is?

What school do you go to where the only thing students talk about to each other is how stressful law school is?

I think that's every law school.

As the sole conversation topic? So your classmates don't talk about social plans, subject material of classes, personal lives, work, but just how stressful school is?

Yeah, that sounds about right.

I really don't understand why you're hung up on this point. The primary thing everyone has in common at law school is law school, so the majority of the conversations center around law school. That's a big reason that I'm a proponent of having non-law school friends during law school, so you can get away from law school and all of the incessant talk about law school.

Also - you seem like a lot of fun.

[Question Everything]

I'm disgusted by the lack of respect a lot of you are giving to the OP. I'm a vet and it sounds like my experiences were much less traumatizing than his, yet I still struggle with the decisions I made in service to my country. Unless you've gone through what the OP has, shut the fuck up. And even if you have, it doesn't give you the right to be an insensitive prick. His anger at the relative inane concerns dwelled on by the average K-JD kid is understandable considering what he's been through. It would be great to be able to brush that shit off, but it's easier said than done.

OP - Stick in there, man. The way you're feeling is completely normal. You should try to link up with other vets at your school if that's an option. I'm starting my JD this fall, so may not be the most helpful yet, but I felt much the same as you when I was getting a masters after serving for several years and would be happy to grab a coffee and shoot the shit sometime if you're in the DC area.

[NYSprague]

You don't need to gun for top 5%. That only matters for employment in certain firms and that doesn't seem to apply to you.. You sound like you have perspective on what matters.

You are so smart to go to school and have no debt.

Keep posting here if it helps you vent.

[PepperJack]

I'm disgusted by the lack of respect a lot of you are giving to the OP. I'm a vet and it sounds like my experiences were much less traumatizing than his, yet I still struggle with the decisions I made in service to my country. Unless you've gone through what the OP has, shut the fuck up. And even if you have, it doesn't give you the right to be an insensitive prick. His anger at the relative inane concerns dwelled on by the average K-JD kid is understandable considering what he's been through. It would be great to be able to brush that shit off, but it's easier said than done.

OP - Stick in there, man. The way you're feeling is completely normal. You should try to link up with other vets at your school if that's an option. I'm starting my JD this fall, so may not be the most helpful yet, but I felt much the same as you when I was getting a masters after serving for several years and would be happy to grab a coffee and shoot the shit sometime if you're in the DC area.

Many people use the internet as a way to fret out their aggression and insecurities on others. I'm not a vet but the lack of respect that people give to soldiers is crazy. Whether or not one agrees with how wars were handled has nothing to do with the respect that should be afforded to soldiers. It's like disrespecting a BP gas station attendant because you're pissed they dumped oil into the water.

I also think the stress of being in war would be very different than law school stress, and people aren't necessarily warped to be stressed by law school. It impacts their future livelihood, ability to pay rent, have a career, be financially independent, etc. It is very important. Of course being in combat is much more serious with much higher stakes, but that doesn't mean law school is not still high stakes. Driving 200 mph an hour is really fast, but 100 mph is still very fast.

[spleenworship]

Non-vet 3L with PTSD here. My advice? First, I found a group I people with similarly traumatic experiences (a couple vets, an ex cop, a violent rape survivor) and hung out with them. It was nice to talk to people who realized that a Ks grade or who was dating who just wasn't that important.

Second, I scheduled my time well to give me breaks from stimuli. I ensured that I had time every week to play video games (one of the things that calms me) and read for pleasure. I also took time to watch stupid cartoons every day for 25 minutes. My wife loves these tense dramas and hospital shows with people dying. I can't do that every day anymore. So I took time to watch my shows.

Third, I eventually got on medication and went to counseling. I thought it was just anxiety and depression (similar to you, I started having a very hard time giving a crap about anything unless it was vitally important. It was like all the extra stimulation just made me shut down about everything. I also had rage issues, drank too much, etc. not that anyone but my family noticed or suffered though), but my counselor has helped me see how the experiences I had in my prior job really affected the way I process stimuli. Turns out my PTSD is a factor in what was going on ( the other was the inherent nature of law school. Fuck you, law school). I know you probably don't want to take the pills. I didn't. I didn't want to change who I was. I didn't want to be artificially happy. I didn't want there to be a problem serious enough to require medication. I also didn't want to lose my preselected status with the JAG Corps.

In the end though? I wish I'd gotten on it sooner. I've never been happier. I've never been better as a father or husband. I've never been accomplishing so much. And I dont really feel different apart from feeling better. I'm still a cynical douchebag. I'm still sarcastic. I still get woried, or sad, or scared. The difference is that with the drugs, I can handle it. I feel like it is something I can overcome.

So, OP, at least consider taking the damn drugs. And no matter what you choose, good luck to you bro.

[Redfactor]

USMC Afghanistan combat vet here,

What helps me is not talking with my classmates all the time. Getting away and hanging out with a "rougher" crowd balances me out. Let them do them and I'll do me.

Most of my professors have been very understanding and I've made an effort to be open about my experiences down range and its effects on me and those I served with. I believe it's important because the people in that room are going to be influential within the community and few have legitimate ties to this generation's war fighters.

International law and student activists have been a struggle for me though. Lectures on the laws of war have left me shaking in my seat in rage as people who've never tasted what it's like comfortably cast judgment and throw around the label war criminal like it's cool. I just remind myself they have no ****ing idea what they're talking about - on par for academia.

But don't be so hard on your classmates. Unlike them, we don't have this ominous cloud of student debt over our heads. While so many 1Ls go in school thinking they're special snowflakes, the majority learn quick they're not hot **** and that they are going to have to make a payment of $1500-2500+ a month for 10 years.

You're old enough to know what a large monthly bill can do to stress levels. I don't blame them for being stressed beyond belief. They're taking on a mountain of debt and don't have any guaranteed future income. If I didn't know how I was going to pay my bills I would be going crazy too.

Oh, plus I have my dog. They're man's best friend for a reason.

[encore1101]

Yeah, that sounds about right.

I really don't understand why you're hung up on this point. The primary thing everyone has in common at law school is law school, so the majority of the conversations center around law school. That's a big reason that I'm a proponent of having non-law school friends during law school, so you can get away from law school and all of the incessant talk about law school.

Also - you seem like a lot of fun.

You seem like a drag.

At least I'm able to converse with my classmates about subjects other than law school.

[John Everyman]

Yeah, that sounds about right.

I really don't understand why you're hung up on this point. The primary thing everyone has in common at law school is law school, so the majority of the conversations center around law school. That's a big reason that I'm a proponent of having non-law school friends during law school, so you can get away from law school and all of the incessant talk about law school.

Also - you seem like a lot of fun.

At least I'm able to converse with my classmates about subjects other than law school.

Law school

ETA: Law school?

[PepperJack]

If any law school class can make you have an emotional reaction then it's time to admit you have a problem.