After Grades - What did we learn? Forum
- prezidentv8
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?
I also learned that I still have no idea what a good test looks like.
- superserial
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?
that I'm gonna be employed!
- rayiner
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?
Not even close (unless you fail, I guess).eth3n wrote:one bad grade can make the difference between #1 and median
Take a hypothetical 3.95 here at NU (which is top 5%, but not #1):
A+, A, A, A-, A- (2 cr)
Say this person bombs one of the substantive classes, and get's a B- (lowest mandatory grade on our curve).
A+, A, B-, A-, A- (2 cr)
That's still 3.66, which is probably top quarter or so.
- 98234872348
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?
More like top 10% (at any other school).rayiner wrote:That's still 3.66, which is probably top quarter or so.
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?
Yeah, but you guys also have 5 fucking grades. Some people have 3.betasteve wrote:I am proof that ray is right.rayiner wrote:Not even close (unless you fail, I guess).eth3n wrote:one bad grade can make the difference between #1 and median
Take a hypothetical 3.95 here at NU (which is top 5%, but not #1):
A+, A, A, A-, A- (2 cr)
Say this person bombs one of the substantive classes, and get's a B- (lowest mandatory grade on our curve).
A+, A, B-, A-, A- (2 cr)
That's still 3.66, which is probably top quarter or so.
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?
Hey what's a good practice questions book (like E&E) for con law? Obviously there's the E&E, but I've heard it's only so-so. Of course I'd only be using it for the practice questions so maybe it'd be ok. I've heard about Siegel's multiple choice thing as well. Is that a good one? Anyone know of any others?
- vanwinkle
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?
UVA has a 3.3 curve with top 10% at 3.65, so consider these two scenarios:rayiner wrote:Not even close (unless you fail, I guess).eth3n wrote:one bad grade can make the difference between #1 and median
Take a hypothetical 3.95 here at NU (which is top 5%, but not #1):
A+, A, A, A-, A- (2 cr)
Say this person bombs one of the substantive classes, and get's a B- (lowest mandatory grade on our curve).
A+, A, B-, A-, A- (2 cr)
That's still 3.66, which is probably top quarter or so.
B+, A-, A-, A+
The classes are 4 credits each except one A- which is a 3 credit. This reflects a typical 1L fall semester (one of our fall classes is only 3 credits, I forget which). This would yield a hypothetical GPA of 3.75, putting its holder at somewhere around top 5% and onto LR. However, if the first three grades stay the same but the last one is a bomb instead, this happens:
B+, A-, A-, B-
Only one grade has changed, but it's a 4-credit course so it weighs things down pretty heavily, especially since this is a B+ curve. The GPA drops an awful lot, all the way to a 3.326.
Since median is 3.33, this means that one grade can actually be the difference between LR (which is top 25/360, or around 7%) and median or slightly below it.
This is why waiting for your last grade can really suck. If it comes in high, you can be golden, but if it comes in low, all your hard work on the first three can be tanked and your dreams dashed in an instant.
- rayiner
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?
Small SD's for the lose!vanwinkle wrote:This is why waiting for your last grade can really suck. If it comes in high, you can be golden, but if it comes in low, all your hard work on the first three can be tanked and your dreams dashed in an instant.
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?
I think I have isolated a potential uber factor in grades. I will report back at the end of next term with more results.
- rayiner
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?
Not sucking at life?Snooker wrote:I think I have isolated a potential uber factor in grades. I will report back at the end of next term with more results.
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?
I did not attend law school for the last month and a half, and I ended up with an A- average.
I'm somewhere around average in terms of intelligence in my law school.
I attribute my success - 100% - to LEEWS, and Getting to Maybe.
I would ordinarily hesitate to call an A- effort a success at my particular school where A-'s are as frequent as make-up classes for legal-writing - but I'd call it a success given that I was a no-show for 25% of the first term.
To bullet point it:
- Spot issues
- Analyze and argue in the alternative
- Choose a writing style that maximizes legal issues spotted+analyzed per minute of typing.
- Think while typing (got MUUUCH better at this due to practice)
- Execute
The last point is meaningless, I just like it when sports teams use it .
I'm somewhere around average in terms of intelligence in my law school.
I attribute my success - 100% - to LEEWS, and Getting to Maybe.
I would ordinarily hesitate to call an A- effort a success at my particular school where A-'s are as frequent as make-up classes for legal-writing - but I'd call it a success given that I was a no-show for 25% of the first term.
To bullet point it:
- Spot issues
- Analyze and argue in the alternative
- Choose a writing style that maximizes legal issues spotted+analyzed per minute of typing.
- Think while typing (got MUUUCH better at this due to practice)
- Execute
The last point is meaningless, I just like it when sports teams use it .
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?
No not sucking at life at all, this term definitely conformed to my expectations (model answers included). Moreover I practiced my westlaw skills over the break to see if there's any empirical evidence & theory to explain all of this. There is, and it seems like the typical strategies don't actually correlate up with grades - it's been studied.
- rayiner
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?
Why would there be a correlation between study strategy and grades? The end product is what matters - how you get there doesn't.Snooker wrote:No not sucking at life at all, this term definitely conformed to my expectations (model answers included). Moreover I practiced my westlaw skills over the break to see if there's any empirical evidence & theory to explain all of this. There is, and it seems like the typical strategies don't actually correlate up with grades - it's been studied.
It's really not rocket science. You apply the law to the facts. Occasionally, you justify your conclusion with a public policy argument (but only occasionally unless you have a professor you know cares about policy). You explore the contours and ambiguities in the law itself, guided by what highlights the professor noted in class. How you learn the law is irrelevant as long as you have internalized it. I used mostly the casebook, with supplements only for verification*. I know several people who have had good success wih supplements, on the other hand. The key is to figure out what works for you, then do it.
What do you think a study will prove?
*) The one class were I did use a supplement to make my outline (crim) I ended up bringing up all sorts of irrelevant law, and my professor specifically mentioned that I probably got the stuff from a supplement when I went over the exam with him.
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- prezidentv8
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?
Not like it consciously seemed to affect my comfort level with the material, but more supplement use --> better grades in a given class last semester for me.rayiner wrote:*) The one class were I did use a supplement to make my outline (crim) I ended up bringing up all sorts of irrelevant law, and my professor specifically mentioned that I probably got the stuff from a supplement when I went over the exam with him.
- rayiner
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?
Not opposing supplements. Just pointing out that people have different things that worked for them. I know Snooker swears by hornbooks, for example, but I never cracked one myself.prezidentv8 wrote:Not like it consciously seemed to affect my comfort level with the material, but more supplement use --> better grades in a given class last semester for me.rayiner wrote:*) The one class were I did use a supplement to make my outline (crim) I ended up bringing up all sorts of irrelevant law, and my professor specifically mentioned that I probably got the stuff from a supplement when I went over the exam with him.
- prezidentv8
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?
For sure. Fwiw, I think it was partially a "different strokes..." issue and partly how each class was taught and tested. I still don't know what I'm doing in any meaningful way.rayiner wrote:Not opposing supplements. Just pointing out that people have different things that worked for them. I know Snooker swears by hornbooks, for example, but I never cracked one myself.prezidentv8 wrote:Not like it consciously seemed to affect my comfort level with the material, but more supplement use --> better grades in a given class last semester for me.rayiner wrote:*) The one class were I did use a supplement to make my outline (crim) I ended up bringing up all sorts of irrelevant law, and my professor specifically mentioned that I probably got the stuff from a supplement when I went over the exam with him.
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?
The "internalizing" the law part is the most important. You have to know it to the point that you can teach it to somebody else, which is harder than it sounds. Think about the subject you love most in the world, whether it be NBA basketball, the films of Martin Scorcese, etc., etc. You should own the rules of joinder to the same degree that you know the plot of "The Departed," to the point where you don't even have to struggle to think about it any more. It's just part of you.
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- prezidentv8
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?
Joinder is my bread and butter.VincentChase wrote:The "internalizing" the law part is the most important. You have to know it to the point that you can teach it to somebody else, which is harder than it sounds. Think about the subject you love most in the world, whether it be NBA basketball, the films of Martin Scorcese, etc., etc. You should own the rules of joinder to the same degree that you know the plot of "The Departed," to the point where you don't even have to struggle to think about it any more. It's just part of you.
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?
So you think!prezidentv8 wrote:Joinder is my bread and butter.VincentChase wrote:The "internalizing" the law part is the most important. You have to know it to the point that you can teach it to somebody else, which is harder than it sounds. Think about the subject you love most in the world, whether it be NBA basketball, the films of Martin Scorcese, etc., etc. You should own the rules of joinder to the same degree that you know the plot of "The Departed," to the point where you don't even have to struggle to think about it any more. It's just part of you.
- prezidentv8
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?
I know now ....must've nailed the joinder clusterfuck question because my policy answer was most definitely garbage.VincentChase wrote:So you think!prezidentv8 wrote:Joinder is my bread and butter.VincentChase wrote:The "internalizing" the law part is the most important. You have to know it to the point that you can teach it to somebody else, which is harder than it sounds. Think about the subject you love most in the world, whether it be NBA basketball, the films of Martin Scorcese, etc., etc. You should own the rules of joinder to the same degree that you know the plot of "The Departed," to the point where you don't even have to struggle to think about it any more. It's just part of you.
- rbgrocio
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?
prezidentv8 wrote:Not like it consciously seemed to affect my comfort level with the material, but more supplement use --> better grades in a given class last semester for me.rayiner wrote:*) The one class were I did use a supplement to make my outline (crim) I ended up bringing up all sorts of irrelevant law, and my professor specifically mentioned that I probably got the stuff from a supplement when I went over the exam with him.
I didn't use any supplements last semester, and I did quite well.. This semester I bought Emanuel outlines for property, civ pro and crim. I read the as my "story book" before going to bed. My strategy: read during the day, outline when I get home what we went over in class and complement it ONLY with highlights from the book. I do not add supplement stuff to my outline. I just use them to review and understand better what we went over in class.
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?
That seems to be the proper way to use them, to help reinforce classroom and casebook learning. Compare it to working out. You work your biceps by hitting the muscle at different angles. You don't work your biceps by working out your calves, though.rbgrocio wrote:prezidentv8 wrote:Not like it consciously seemed to affect my comfort level with the material, but more supplement use --> better grades in a given class last semester for me.rayiner wrote:*) The one class were I did use a supplement to make my outline (crim) I ended up bringing up all sorts of irrelevant law, and my professor specifically mentioned that I probably got the stuff from a supplement when I went over the exam with him.
I didn't use any supplements last semester, and I did quite well.. This semester I bought Emanuel outlines for property, civ pro and crim. I read the as my "story book" before going to bed. My strategy: read during the day, outline when I get home what we went over in class and complement it ONLY with highlights from the book. I do not add supplement stuff to my outline. I just use them to review and understand better what we went over in class.
- rbgrocio
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?
VincentChase wrote:That seems to be the proper way to use them, to help reinforce classroom and casebook learning. Compare it to working out. You work your biceps by hitting the muscle at different angles. You don't work your biceps by working out your calves, though.rbgrocio wrote:prezidentv8 wrote:Not like it consciously seemed to affect my comfort level with the material, but more supplement use --> better grades in a given class last semester for me.rayiner wrote:*) The one class were I did use a supplement to make my outline (crim) I ended up bringing up all sorts of irrelevant law, and my professor specifically mentioned that I probably got the stuff from a supplement when I went over the exam with him.
I didn't use any supplements last semester, and I did quite well.. This semester I bought Emanuel outlines for property, civ pro and crim. I read the as my "story book" before going to bed. My strategy: read during the day, outline when I get home what we went over in class and complement it ONLY with highlights from the book. I do not add supplement stuff to my outline. I just use them to review and understand better what we went over in class.
Yeah... I only use them for context and examples... The supplements include a lot of stuff professors don't go over because of time constraints, etc. I also bough Q&As this semester. We don't get ranked until the end of Spring, and even though I think I am in the run for top ten... I want to make sure I make it there... so I'm trying to kick it up a notch a bit this semester.
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?
The best supplements either coincide with your casebook or, in the best cases, your professor. Though I think a lot of people got screwed in my property class last semester because they figured that the Gilbert's guide was a direct pipeline into the mind of Krier and skimped on the casebook reading (including me at times).
Problem is when every single person does that, it's tough to get any sort of edge.
Problem is when every single person does that, it's tough to get any sort of edge.
- JazzOne
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?
I think I may have used the supplements in a unique way. It surprises me every time I hear someone say that he cited a bunch of irrelevant law because of a supplement. I first decided to use a supplement because my civil procedure professor spent the first three weeks of class talking about pre-trial seizure. My classmates from the other sections were talking about personal jurisdiction and subject matter jurisdiction, and frankly, I felt a little cheated that I wasn't getting a firm understanding of these basics in my class. I picked up the E&E to learn the procedural principles beyond those that my professor wanted to teach. In my professor's defense, he eventually covered jurisdiction, but I read the whole E&E, and I learned a lot of interesting things that we never covered in class. I used the examples to practice using the IRAC format. I think that was very helpful even if many of the exact topics were never tested by my professor. I read the E&E that corresponded to each of my courses last semester, and I plan to do so again this semester. I'm not trying to game my finals at all. I just enjoy the material.
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