Dropping out due to HFA and isolation in law school Forum

[Perseus_I]

You seem to value fitting in and what others think.

Be who you are and just be awesome and folks will come to you. A club, competition team, or something else is a good way to get into a group where you might find more luck.

I am aspie, had very few friends in law school, am in tax (you bastards haha), and took the bar exam today (fuck me).

Accept who you are I luvs myself.

Most of the folks in law school really were not worth getting to know. And then there are some pretty amazing people. Gotta strike a balance.

What type of club? I joined the "Autism Speaks" chapter of my university. Can't think of anything else, certainly not that I could get involved in as a 2L. I'm on Law Review already, which sucks because hard-charging Type A people are not those with whom I normally click. My school isn't high-ranked enough (it's #16) to the point that "law review" = the spectrum. At my school, "law review" = the overachievers who've always been president of everything, many of whom have impeccable social skills, 90% of whom have nailed down big firm jobs. I think I click much better with the public interest people, but don't really know how to break into that crowd.

I "was who I am" for many years, which is why I had/have an awful life. I wasn't diagnosed until last fall, so I only then started taking steps to fix my behaviors (part of being on the spectrum is not being aware of bad or weird behaviors). I think I've been successful, but it doesn't seem to be affecting the real world since social circles are pretty much set.

Any other ideas that I could do as a 2L?

[spleenworship]

You seem to value fitting in and what others think.

Be who you are and just be awesome and folks will come to you. A club, competition team, or something else is a good way to get into a group where you might find more luck.

I am aspie, had very few friends in law school, am in tax (you bastards haha), and took the bar exam today (fuck me).

Accept who you are I luvs myself.

Most of the folks in law school really were not worth getting to know. And then there are some pretty amazing people. Gotta strike a balance.

What type of club? I joined the "Autism Speaks" chapter of my university. Can't think of anything else, certainly not that I could get involved in as a 2L. I'm on Law Review already, which sucks because hard-charging Type A people are not those with whom I normally click. My school isn't high-ranked enough (it's #16) to the point that "law review" = the spectrum. At my school, "law review" = the overachievers who've always been president of everything, many of whom have impeccable social skills, 90% of whom have nailed down big firm jobs. I think I click much better with the public interest people, but don't really know how to break into that crowd.

I "was who I am" for many years, which is why I had/have an awful life. I wasn't diagnosed until last fall, so I only then started taking steps to fix my behaviors (part of being on the spectrum is not being aware of bad or weird behaviors). I think I've been successful, but it doesn't seem to be affecting the real world since social circles are pretty much set.

Any other ideas that I could do as a 2L?

Doesn't your school have a public interest group with meetings you could go to? Then volunteer for something.

[cinephile]

Just going to bar review can be good. And doing the usual small talk thing, asking people how their semester is going, what classes they are taking, reminiscing about how much easier 1L was . . . that sort of thing. And just letting the other person talk and actively listening.

[Birdnals]

Pull your dick out. The answer is always: Pull. Your. Dick. Out.

[dr123]

Your school definitely has some sort of disability support services, check it out bro. They also probably have some sort of counseling center.

[laxbrah420]

Intramural slowpitch softball dude. Just play catcher if you suck at fielding and pay for a hitting lesson for like an hour at a cage.

[Needajob1]

You seem to value fitting in and what others think.

Be who you are and just be awesome and folks will come to you. A club, competition team, or something else is a good way to get into a group where you might find more luck.

I am aspie, had very few friends in law school, am in tax (you bastards haha), and took the bar exam today (fuck me).

Accept who you are I luvs myself.

Most of the folks in law school really were not worth getting to know. And then there are some pretty amazing people. Gotta strike a balance.

What type of club? I joined the "Autism Speaks" chapter of my university. Can't think of anything else, certainly not that I could get involved in as a 2L. I'm on Law Review already, which sucks because hard-charging Type A people are not those with whom I normally click. My school isn't high-ranked enough (it's #16) to the point that "law review" = the spectrum. At my school, "law review" = the overachievers who've always been president of everything, many of whom have impeccable social skills, 90% of whom have nailed down big firm jobs. I think I click much better with the public interest people, but don't really know how to break into that crowd.

I "was who I am" for many years, which is why I had/have an awful life. I wasn't diagnosed until last fall, so I only then started taking steps to fix my behaviors (part of being on the spectrum is not being aware of bad or weird behaviors). I think I've been successful, but it doesn't seem to be affecting the real world since social circles are pretty much set.

Any other ideas that I could do as a 2L?

So as a school therapist and Mental Health Counselor, I can understand how you may have not been diagnosed until last year, but I find it hard to believe that you did not always have problems relating to people and did not quite fit in. I think it was really bold and brave of you (in a good way) to step into an industry that requires you to be everything your not (or think your not). Most people on the spectrum do not realize they are on the spectrum and basically feel bullied, misunderstood, and alienated the majority of their growing years. Most of these kids would not attempt to do what your doing. You have a unique awarness that is a positive thing. Bill Gates is on the spectrum and he pushed through his awkward ways to achieve greatness. You got where you are for a reason and you deserve to be there. You have a chance to show everyone that someone who struggled so hard CAN make it. There is a place for you in this industry and it will all make sense at one point. Depression and self-doubt are common in law school and stop second guessing yourself. Your not there to make friends as it is a competitive environment. Your friends will come after when you have found your nitch. Keep your head in the game and push through. You will be proud in the end!

[evilxs]

As far as what kinds of clubs, dang my school can't be the only one with more clubs than MEE topics.

The friendlier (easier to make friends in clubs), tend to be all the public law interest type clubs (going out and doing things with the do gooders you WILL make friends), the smaller niche areas of law, the democrat or republican law club, the environmental law society (which usually goes out and does good things in the community which is yet another awesome friend making opportunity), etc.

I worked a lot with Equal Justice Works events, VITA, Stand Down, and other volunteer opportunities for lawyers. You will make friends. Everyone is super friendly when out volunteering in the community and back at school those friendships will pay dividends as folks go wow he/she is pretty nice, just never got the opportunity to know you. You can also volunteer a bunch to help with typical 1L crap or to help moot them etc. If you feel like you struck out with your class, no reason you can't be the cool upperclassman and hang more with a different group in law school.

[northwood]

Pull your dick out. The answer is always: Pull. Your. Dick. Out.

your tar would say otherwise....


if OP did that, the phrase "why dont you have a seat over here" comes to mind........

[worldtraveler]

My school has group therapy sessions to help people overcome shyness and social anxiety. Try looking outside the law school as the university itself probably has some kinds of assistance.

I've also never met too many people with various forms of social anxiety or high functioning aspergers/autism until I went to law school. You are certainly not the only one with this problem, and probably not the only one at your school.

[jess]

.

[laxbrah420]

Intramural slowpitch softball dude. Just play catcher if you suck at fielding and pay for a hitting lesson for like an hour at a cage.

I'm going to automatically assume this is trolling, but I agree. Do some sort of intramural that involves going out to drink afterwards.

??

[redgreenpaper]

alright bro i'll cure your aspergers for you

step 1: while in class sit in the middle or next to someone or close to someone or a group of ppl or whatever.

step 2: pretend to be clueless and ask "hey blah blah blah do you know when the paper is due blah blah?"

step 3: initiate conversation after breaking the ice. ask like "have u started the paper" or "how do you like the class" or whatever you want

step 4: continue the conversation until class starts or whatever and during break pick up the convo again. ask for their name and shit when you have both talked long enough. make sure you dont drop your spaghetti (aspergers) mid conversation and start stuttering and shit. if you do in fact drop your aspergers all over the ground then smile, stop convo, never speak to him/her again, etc. if the convo goes good and shit then at the end of your class say "hey gimme your number"

step 5: lightly text throughout the semester (e.g. "you ready for the test?", "you on campus? wanna grab something to eat?") and sit with said person during class

congratulations you have cured your aspergers

[bjsesq]

alright bro i'll cure your aspergers for you

step 1: while in class sit in the middle or next to someone or close to someone or a group of ppl or whatever.

step 2: pretend to be clueless and ask "hey blah blah blah do you know when the paper is due blah blah?"

step 3: initiate conversation after breaking the ice. ask like "have u started the paper" or "how do you like the class" or whatever you want

step 4: continue the conversation until class starts or whatever and during break pick up the convo again. ask for their name and shit when you have both talked long enough. make sure you dont drop your spaghetti (aspergers) mid conversation and start stuttering and shit. if you do in fact drop your aspergers all over the ground then smile, stop convo, never speak to him/her again, etc. if the convo goes good and shit then at the end of your class say "hey gimme your number"

step 5: lightly text throughout the semester (e.g. "you ready for the test?", "you on campus? wanna grab something to eat?") and sit with said person during class

congratulations you have cured your aspergers

1. Troll alt
2. Meta

[redgreenpaper]

alright bro i'll cure your aspergers for you

step 1: while in class sit in the middle or next to someone or close to someone or a group of ppl or whatever.

step 2: pretend to be clueless and ask "hey blah blah blah do you know when the paper is due blah blah?"

step 3: initiate conversation after breaking the ice. ask like "have u started the paper" or "how do you like the class" or whatever you want

step 4: continue the conversation until class starts or whatever and during break pick up the convo again. ask for their name and shit when you have both talked long enough. make sure you dont drop your spaghetti (aspergers) mid conversation and start stuttering and shit. if you do in fact drop your aspergers all over the ground then smile, stop convo, never speak to him/her again, etc. if the convo goes good and shit then at the end of your class say "hey gimme your number"

step 5: lightly text throughout the semester (e.g. "you ready for the test?", "you on campus? wanna grab something to eat?") and sit with said person during class

congratulations you have cured your aspergers

1. Troll alt
2. Meta

how is this a troll? explain. explain to me. explain to me right now. explain to me right now how this is a troll. explain to me right now how this is a troll when im giving valuable advice. explain to me right now how this is a troll when im giving valuable advice to apergers OP.

[bjsesq]

alright bro i'll cure your aspergers for you

step 1: while in class sit in the middle or next to someone or close to someone or a group of ppl or whatever.

step 2: pretend to be clueless and ask "hey blah blah blah do you know when the paper is due blah blah?"

step 3: initiate conversation after breaking the ice. ask like "have u started the paper" or "how do you like the class" or whatever you want

step 4: continue the conversation until class starts or whatever and during break pick up the convo again. ask for their name and shit when you have both talked long enough. make sure you dont drop your spaghetti (aspergers) mid conversation and start stuttering and shit. if you do in fact drop your aspergers all over the ground then smile, stop convo, never speak to him/her again, etc. if the convo goes good and shit then at the end of your class say "hey gimme your number"

step 5: lightly text throughout the semester (e.g. "you ready for the test?", "you on campus? wanna grab something to eat?") and sit with said person during class

congratulations you have cured your aspergers

1. Troll alt
2. Meta

how is this a troll? explain. explain to me. explain to me right now. explain to me right now how this is a troll. explain to me right now how this is a troll when im giving valuable advice. explain to me right now how this is a troll when im giving valuable advice to apergers OP.

K.

[Perseus_I]

Just going to bar review can be good. And doing the usual small talk thing, asking people how their semester is going, what classes they are taking, reminiscing about how much easier 1L was . . . that sort of thing. And just letting the other person talk and actively listening.

The problem with actively listening is that people like me have a sensory processing issue which causes us to have few outward reciprocal responses to other people -- things that others don't really consciously notice and take for granted. One would be inflection/prosody in speech. The other would be facial expressions. I know an aspie girl who is high-functioning like me and her friend has to tell other people "ignore her facial expressions; they are irrelevant." lol.

So "actively listening" isn't as easy as it sounds. I also have an extra hard time engaging in something I'm not interested in -- which includes most people in law school. Makes small talk a little bit difficult, too. I have tried to watch sports games and learn about sports on internet sites, such as nfl.com, but I can't pay attention to sports-related stuff for more than 3 minutes without falling asleep.

Too much conformity, not enough variety. I fall asleep talking to most people at the University of Texas. I remember Penn students being a bit more interesting, but I chose the full-ride, unfortunately not knowing about IBR. At least give me some diversity, to make things interesting than "I grew up in the Houston suburbs and want to go back to Houston to work in big lawl and make $." The problem is it takes lots of novelty and variety--or else people who are similar to me, a rare commodity at UTexas Law School and the greek societies that feed into it-- to make me interested in something aside from my obsessions, including people. I enjoy talking to artists, criminals, some crazy people (especially borderlines), foreigners, and other people with nontraditional/non-American lives.

I also find it easier to talk with raging feminists for some reason. Maybe we share a common interest in policy and a common hatred for capitalism, men (since Ass Burgers fucks with gender identity and gender roles), traditional values, and the status quo. I feel like, if I stay in law, these considerations should influence my choice of which area of law to practice. So which one? I am a 2L with no extracurricular activities except Law Review and a martial arts class. I became very disengaged in like everything during 2L due to depression.

It's like the legal profession is all about being normal and being a conformist. I am not a nonconformist by choice. I really can't think like neurotypical people. Being a guy and having only a very ambivalent interest in dating/sex that waxes and wanes with the moon, no interest in sports, and no concept of "being the man" and starting a family probably would cause many people to wonder if I'm even part of the same species. Yes, so I hide most of my life. Because being asexual (or "Gray A" -- having traits of both) alone is considered scary in American society; forget all the other quirks.

[enigmabk]

tag

[Geaux12]

Too much conformity, not enough variety.

Maybe we share a common interest in policy and a common hatred for capitalism, men (since Ass Burgers fucks with gender identity and gender roles), traditional values, and the status quo.

Are these the lyrics to a My Chemical Romance song? Take the fedora off for 15 seconds and stop letting other people's "conformity" be an excuse for not getting along.

At least give me some diversity, to make things interesting than "I grew up in the Houston suburbs and want to go back to Houston to work in big lawl and make $."

Now you're just being a dick. If you don't want people to write you off for your personality traits/passions/desires, why are you dismissing frat stars/sorostitutes who want to return to their hometown and make money?

I'm sorry we aren't edgy/socialist/foreign/ninja/feminist enough. Liking sports and the (amazing Austin) bar scene doesn't mean there's anything wrong with a person, just like disliking those things doesn't mean there is anything wrong with you. You need an attitude adjustment.

[Perseus_I]

Too much conformity, not enough variety.

Maybe we share a common interest in policy and a common hatred for capitalism, men (since Ass Burgers fucks with gender identity and gender roles), traditional values, and the status quo.

Are these the lyrics to a My Chemical Romance song? Take the fedora off for 15 seconds and stop letting other people's "conformity" be an excuse for not getting along.

At least give me some diversity, to make things interesting than "I grew up in the Houston suburbs and want to go back to Houston to work in big lawl and make $."

Now you're just being a dick. If you don't want people to write you off for your personality traits/passions/desires, why are you dismissing frat stars/sorostitutes who want to return to their hometown and make money?

I'm sorry we aren't edgy/socialist/foreign/ninja/feminist enough. Liking sports and the (amazing Austin) bar scene doesn't mean there's anything wrong with a person, just like disliking those things doesn't mean there is anything wrong with you. You need an attitude adjustment.

I'm not dismissing someone, just explaining why I've given up on fitting in in this environment and hate life. People like you are the reason why a full-ride to UT Law was totally not worth it. Also, I'm pretty sure I get along with most everyone and that almost everyone who knows me IRL would be shocked that I feel this way -- especially it's because it's an attitude that developed quite recently due to lots of soul searching in my identity crisis. Some people from my school actually say I'm a "nice guy" who should just go to more events, meet more people, and be more involved. Problem is, I already force myself to do this, and the little I do is painful. There just isn't much to talk about with most people here; I do my best and get exhausted from the little I do. The thing about Asperger's, is it's exceptionally hard to focus on something we're not interested in, and having bad coping mechanisms is part of the criteria for the disorder, so it's not like we can just adapt to our external environment; we must either adapt our environment to us or find one already suitable. Also, my counselor thinks I actually have Newson Syndrome, not Asperger's Syndrome. This involves fewer outward impairments in social skills (possibly none) but identity disturbances and aversion to mundane demands and even worse coping ability than Asperger's.

I dated a girl from November until February, and after the relationship ended in a mushroom cloud, it caused me to realize the reason behind much of my depression and exceptionally bad (even for me) issues relating to people at UT Law. My current attitude--which I didn't even really have when I made the OP-- is the result of and in no way the cause of my difficulties.

While the way I talk about it may be an "attitude," this is merely a coping mechanism that developed over time. The actual difficulties are not an attitude. Actually, hostility/mild sociopathy is the only way I keep from hanging myself, typically. If I'm not directing my anger out at something else, such as Texas culture, I'm directing it at myself, which causes me to engage in suicidal and self-harming behavior (cutting). So no, I don't think an "attitude adjustment" will fix my problems. Trying to be somewhere where there's less of a clash between the way I think and my environment is important. Unfortunately, I found this only in a foreign country where I lived for two years and probably cannot live long-term (but we'll see, I guess; with no debt, no one says I HAVE to practice law if I do actually hate it).

[cinephile]

It sounds like you definitely should be seeing a therapist if you aren't already to discuss these issues.

But that being said, maybe I can speak to some of the other things you discussed. Yeah, it's boring talking about things you're not interested in, but everyone feels that way. Everyone just grins and bears it sometimes. And we do it because we're not interested in necessarily the content of small talk (because who actually cares about the weather) but just about getting to know new people and building connections. Like I find discussions of celebrity gossip inane, but I let my sister talk about it me for hours because it makes her happy, and I'm happy if she's happy. Plus I get to make fun of her a bit for her celebrity crushes, which also makes me happy. Anyway, a lot of life is just fake it till you make it. Even people you'd think wouldn't feel that way often do.

But it also sounds like you have contempt for a lot of people. If so, why do you want to socialize with them? Or why do you feel isolated if you don't fit with them if you find them boring?

And while trying to put yourself in an environment that matches up with your values might make things better, there will always be people you'll have to interact with in life who you won't click with. And you can't avoid that. So no matter where you go, you need to find better coping skills.

[sublime]

..

[Perseus_I]

It sounds like you definitely should be seeing a therapist if you aren't already to discuss these issues.

But that being said, maybe I can speak to some of the other things you discussed. Yeah, it's boring talking about things you're not interested in, but everyone feels that way. Everyone just grins and bears it sometimes. And we do it because we're not interested in necessarily the content of small talk (because who actually cares about the weather) but just about getting to know new people and building connections. Like I find discussions of celebrity gossip inane, but I let my sister talk about it me for hours because it makes her happy, and I'm happy if she's happy. Plus I get to make fun of her a bit for her celebrity crushes, which also makes me happy. Anyway, a lot of life is just fake it till you make it. Even people you'd think wouldn't feel that way often do.

But it also sounds like you have contempt for a lot of people. If so, why do you want to socialize with them? Or why do you feel isolated if you don't fit with them if you find them boring?

And while trying to put yourself in an environment that matches up with your values might make things better, there will always be people you'll have to interact with in life who you won't click with. And you can't avoid that. So no matter where you go, you need to find better coping skills.

The contempt thing is very complicated. Maybe more a reaction to issues. I have gone to "social skills" groups for this and they didn't really find much wrong. Basically, the issues are too complicated and too under the surface. I actually do try to engage in small talk quite frequently. There is no lack of actually trying to do this--with varying levels of success.

It sounds like an attitude problem, but the lack of relationship building is definitely a lack of ability. At some point, you need to have something in common with people. The point of so-called "social skills" training is to take off the "rough edges" of someone to the point where these rough edges are no longer a barrier to connections with others. But this assumes that, aside from these rough edges caused by lack of social skills, there is a person underneath capable of connecting with others. In my case, I have come to believe that this is an incorrect assumption. Well, I can at least have large numbers of acquaintances, even if no real friends; do you need anything more to be successful in law?

I honestly don't know whether to primarily blame my environment or myself, or both. But in any case, I'm not sure if law is a suitable profession under these circumstances. As for the so-called "attitude" thing, the vast majority of individuals who started out life in a similar position to where I was as a child are now living in group homes or have never left their parents' home or take disability income. I have been living independently for 8 years (since 17) without help from my parents.

[mephistopheles]

tag

[Perseus_I]

Oh, and I'm definitely not a typical "aspie" like those portrayed in the media. Which is why PDD-NOS or, unofficially, "Newson Syndrome" has been regarded by professionals as a better fit: "superficial sociability, demand avoidance, identity confusion, and mood, values, & personality changes." So anyone who says to "learn social skills" -- realize, this probably isn't going to help me much. Superficial social skills are not strong, but they are not unusually weak for a law student. It's that there's literally nothing else there. Or as my ex girlfriend said, "there's really not much to you in certain areas."

My faking skills actually are pretty strong, but my understanding of social situations is incredibly weak, although it takes a long time for others to figure out just how impaired and hopeless I am. It's not apparent on first meeting. Which is part of the curse of Newson Syndrome. It's as if we literally and unconsciously "hide" from help.

So yes, there aren't the same blatant social problems there that there are in most individuals with the better-known Asperger's Sydnrome. But that's why my situation is actually worse in some ways. There is literally less to correct on the surface, and most issues known to others are sins of "omission." So I have no idea how I would even begin to correct this situation, and since Newson Syndrome is hardly even recognized in the U.S., there's not a lot of help I can get.

Can I even practice law in this condition?