[EDITED] Any International Students? Forum

[analytic_philosopher]

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[Ozymandias]

Why would you waste $200,000 if you don't want to be an attorney?

[analytic_philosopher]

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[dingbat]

I was just under the impression that going to a good law school also leads to various other career opportunities.

Generally speaking, graduates from law school first become lawyers and later may have other career opportunities. There are very few non-lawyer jobs for fresh graduates from law schools and those jobs can be obtained in other ways (i.e. without paying $200k for law school)
If you don't want to be a lawyer, I suggest going to business school.

[yuzu]

EDIT: I found this, for example: http://www.law.harvard.edu/prospective/ ... #question4

And the answer you linked to essentially says "you would get a JD to practice US law." Successful foreign JDs typically remain in the US long-term. As mentioned, in some cases you can practice US law outside the US (e.g. overseas branches of US firms), but US firms are not yet allowed to set up shop in India.

The 5% who go into business are the exception, and their path would likely have been easier with an MBA. The "versatility" of a JD is overrated.

One alternative is to get an Indian 3-year LLB plus a US LLM, but with that path your opportunities in the US won't be as good.

[target]

generally agree to what have been said here. You sound more suitable to get a MBA degree than a JD. Better yet, if you can do a LLB in India and a MBA in the U.S.

[dingbat]

generally agree to what have been said here. You sound more suitable to get a MBA degree than a JD. Better yet, if you can do a LLB in India and a MBA in the U.S.

Then what's the point of the LLB?

[target]

generally agree to what have been said here. You sound more suitable to get a MBA degree than a JD. Better yet, if you can do a LLB in India and a MBA in the U.S.

Then what's the point of the LLB?

to give OP an option to practice law in India if he wants.

[dingbat]

generally agree to what have been said here. You sound more suitable to get a MBA degree than a JD. Better yet, if you can do a LLB in India and a MBA in the U.S.

Then what's the point of the LLB?

to give OP an option to practice law in India if he wants.

being an attorney is not something I'm really interested in anyway; I'd rather be a consultant of some sort.

[analytic_philosopher]

To anybody reading this thread: I've edited the original thread and all the responses above are now irrelevant to what the original post is asking. I'm sorry about this but please give this thread another chance by responding to the current wording.

More details: When I originally made this thread I wanted to know about two different things: 1. What opportunities I will have for work in America and 2. What opportunities I will have for work in India. Given that I will not be able to practice law in India with an American JD, I was also seeking other options such as consulting - this prompted people to suggest that I perhaps shouldn't pursue a American JD in the first place. I've now deleted the part about moving back to India - I'm no longer seeking advice about that. For the purposes of this thread, just assume that I want to live and work in America with my JD in one of two fields: Law or Academia. I just want to know if there are any special challenges I will face as an Indian citizen. Thank you!

[dingbat]

It depends on where you go to school.
Outside of the T14, you will have practically no chance of getting a job - there will be more qualified candidates who do not need to be sponsored for a visa.

Within the T14 biglaw may be attainable if you have a high enough class rank, but your rank will need to be somewhat higher than your classmates to warrant the same opportunities, as a company will need to sponsor you for a work visa

While the same is true for academia, you would need to be at HYS (maybe Columbia or Chicago) to have any chance at all.

[analytic_philosopher]

It depends on where you go to school.
Outside of the T14, you will have practically no chance of getting a job - there will be more qualified candidates who do not need to be sponsored for a visa.

Within the T14 biglaw may be attainable if you have a high enough class rank, but your rank will need to be somewhat higher than your classmates to warrant the same opportunities, as a company will need to sponsor you for a work visa

While the same is true for academia, you would need to be at HYS (maybe Columbia or Chicago) to have any chance at all.

Re: Law
Supposing I attend a high-end T14 (maybe not HYS but e.g. CCN), what do you think is the likelihood of landing a job straight out of law school? Assuming median class rank and assuming I'm willing to work outside biglaw - basically assuming I'll be willing to take any decent job. Because international students can only remain in the States for 90 days after graduation within which period they must find a job or else go back home.

Re: Academia
What's the path to academia out of law school? I know that in other disciplines such as the Humanities (my background), you normally look for post-doc fellowships after graduating. What's the equivalent (if any) for law schools?

[aces]

Median at CCN has fairly good job prospects-- assuming smart bidding, reasonable preparation, and no geographical preference (e.g. not shooting for D.C. or CA, which are much harder markets to break in to than NYC), I'd saw a significant majority of median CCN students end up with market-paying firms. Roughly 80% of NYU students who participated in EIW last year received at least one offer through EIW, and I imagine at least some of the remainder end up with a firm through mass-mail or networking.

As for academia, the standard track post-graduation is federal clerkship -> private practice for a few years -> law teaching market. Many candidates also take fellowships that are meant to prepare you to go on the teaching market. These are one- or two-year programs that and provide funding and support for teaching candidates to polish their scholarship before going on the teaching market (see http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... ellow.html for examples). It is rare that academics are hired without some private practice experience or a competitive fellowship, and noone is hired right out of law school. Academia is extremely competitive-- far, far more so than generic biglaw. You generally need to go to a top school, get great grades, get selected for law review, obtain a federal clerkship, publish at least one polished article (not a student note), and impress at your job talk.

Note: I'm not sure how visa sponsorship affects your chances. The previous poster mentioned that it would hurt your odds, and I agree that it would do so at a small firm, but I imagine most large firms have enough experience with foreign lawyers that it's not as big of a deal to them. Plus, I don't think firms inquire about your citizenship status at the interview/callback/offer stage. But I would consult someone with more concrete knowledge about that.

[analytic_philosopher]

Median at CCN has fairly good job prospects-- assuming smart bidding, reasonable preparation, and no geographical preference (e.g. not shooting for D.C. or CA, which are much harder markets to break in to than NYC), I'd saw a significant majority of median CCN students end up with market-paying firms. Roughly 80% of NYU students who participated in EIW last year received at least one offer through EIW, and I imagine at least some of the remainder end up with a firm through mass-mail or networking.

As for academia, the standard track post-graduation is federal clerkship -> private practice for a few years -> law teaching market. Many candidates also take fellowships that are meant to prepare you to go on the teaching market. These are one- or two-year programs that and provide funding and support for teaching candidates to polish their scholarship before going on the teaching market (see http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... ellow.html for examples). It is rare that academics are hired without some private practice experience or a competitive fellowship, and noone is hired right out of law school. Academia is extremely competitive-- far, far more so than generic biglaw. You generally need to go to a top school, get great grades, get selected for law review, obtain a federal clerkship, publish at least one polished article (not a student note), and impress at your job talk.

Note: I'm not sure how visa sponsorship affects your chances. The previous poster mentioned that it would hurt your odds, and I agree that it would do so at a small firm, but I imagine most large firms have enough experience with foreign lawyers that it's not as big of a deal to them. Plus, I don't think firms inquire about your citizenship status at the interview/callback/offer stage. But I would consult someone with more concrete knowledge about that.

Thanks for your response. Just a couple of things I want to comment on:

1. Federal clerkships are out of the question for foreign nationals. Just as is almost anything prefixed with the word "federal" like "federal grants," etc. Only US-citizens are eligible.

2. I see your point about academia. It looks like it might be a better idea for me to get that out of my mind right now. It would probably be a better idea for me to just excel at law school (while trying to make law review) and focus on Getting Into a Good Law Firm. Then, perhaps, a few years down the line if I've managed to get some publications under my belt along with my law experience, I can give academia a shot.

3. Sponsorship issues: You might be right that officially they may not inquire into my citizenship status at the interview / offer stage but it's bound to come up at some point in the process. Just a simple question such as "where are you from?" or "why do you want to work in this city?" would obviously draw this response out.

And my biggest concern:

4. I have no "ties" to any city in the US. Based on what I've been reading on these forums, law school students are always advised to apply to markets where they have strong "ties." And note that this is advice that is being given to US citizens - they are advised not to apply to markets where they don't have "ties." My main worry is this: If a US-citizen is unable to claim "ties" to some particular city, then how the **** do I have any hope of claiming that I have "ties" to this place?

[Lincoln]

I'm a non-U.S. citizen, so I can address some of these.

1. Federal clerkships are out of the question for foreign nationals. Just as is almost anything prefixed with the word "federal" like "federal grants," etc. Only US-citizens are eligible.

This is slightly incorrect. If I understand it correctly, only U.S. citizens are eligible to get paid as clerks. From what I understand there are some exceptions, such as the territories (Puerto Rico, Guam, etc.)

This is similar to attending law school, where you are ineligible for any federal loans, but totally free to go to law school.

2. I see your point about academia. It looks like it might be a better idea for me to get that out of my mind right now. It would probably be a better idea for me to just excel at law school (while trying to make law review) and focus on getting into a good law firm. Then, perhaps, a few years down the line if I've managed to get some publications under my belt along with my law experience, I can give academia a shot.

This has become increasingly difficult over the years. Almost no lawyers take the law school --> law firm --> academia route these days, without an appellate clerkship and fellowships. Practicing right before academia used to be more common, but anything beyond a few years is almost seen as a disadvantage these days. There are a few reasons, prime among which is that it's difficult to turn out quality scholarship, or even stay up-to-date on what is happening in your field of interest, when you are working 80 hours per week. Academia is also becoming increasingly detached from the day-to-day practice of law. (This is a total generalization, of course.)

3. Sponsorship issues: You might be right that officially they may not inquire into my citizenship status at the interview / offer stage but it's bound to come up at some point in the process. Just a simple question such as "where are you from?" or "why do you want to work in this city?" would obviously draw this response out.

Employers may not inquire about citizenship status, country of origin, or method by which you arrived in the U.S. (this all goes out the window for judges: they do what they want), but employers may, and will at some point in the process, ask whether you are eligible to work in the U.S. Many large firms are willing to sponsor visas and won't really think twice about it. (I can think of two firms off-hand that are doing so.)

And my biggest concern:

4. I have no "ties" to any city in the US. Based on what I've been reading on these forums, law school students are always advised to apply to markets where they have strong "ties." And note that this is advice that is being given to US citizens - they are advised not to apply to markets where they don't have "ties." My main worry is this: If a US-citizen is unable to claim "ties" to some particular city, then how the **** do I have any hope of claiming that I have "ties" to this place?

This tends to be less of an issue in NYC in particular, but for smaller markets it's definitely an obstacle.

I'm still a little bit confused as to why you want to attend a U.S. law school. Academia is very difficult to obtain, unless you attend Yale, Harvard, or Stanford, and even then it's an outside chance. You won't be able to practice in India with your degree, and the U.S. legal job market is in free-fall.

[analytic_philosopher]

@Lincoln: Thanks very much; that was really informative.

Regarding your final question about why I want to go to law school in America, I'm not sure how exactly you mean that question. I guess I want to go to law school in America for the same reason that any American want to go to law school in America. If you're asking me why I, as an Indian, want to go to law school in America - it's for the same reason any foreigner wants to come to America - it's because I want to live and work in America.

Sorry if that answer was obtuse, but it's only because I'm confused about what you mean. You seem to be advising me against law school. But I'm unable to determine whether you're advising me against law school in the same manner that you would advise an American citizen against law school? Or are you advising me against law school for the reason that I'm Indian?

What are your reasons for going to law school in America?

[Lincoln]

@Lincoln: Thanks very much; that was really informative.

Regarding your final question about why I want to go to law school in America, I'm not sure how exactly you mean that question. I guess I want to go to law school in America for the same reason that any American want to go to law school in America. If you're asking me why I, as an Indian, want to go to law school in America - it's for the same reason any foreigner wants to come to America - it's because I want to live and work in America.

Sorry if that answer was obtuse, but it's only because I'm confused about what you mean. You seem to be advising me against law school. But I'm unable to determine whether you're advising me against law school in the same manner that you would advise an American citizen against law school? Or are you advising me against law school for the reason that I'm Indian?

What are your reasons for going to law school in America?

First, I'm not advising you against law school. It just seemed that you were unsure about what you wanted, given that you changed your OP, and aren't sure you want to do academia or work at a law firm (which are very, very different jobs). If we don't know what you want, it's hard to provide good advice.

If your goal is just to work in the United States, there are much better options than becoming a lawyer, mainly because of the precarious state of the legal market. An MBA is more likely to lead to a job, and is much more marketable globally, as are a variety of other degrees.

If your reasons for wanting to attend law school, specifically, are the same as any American, there is a significant chance that you are doing it for the wrong reason. Most people go to law school for one or more of the following wrong reasons:
(1) They don't have any work experience, and law school will take you straight from undergrad, unlike an MBA.
(2) They didn't get any marketable skills through their liberal arts degree, and therefore think they can't get a "good" job.
(3) They think getting a J.D. is an automatic ticket to a high-paying BigLaw job.
(4) They think a J.D. is a flexible degree where you can do almost anything. Just look at all those people in government and business who have a J.D.!

Your reasons for attending law school should be different than those, and should be different from even a well-informed American, in the sense that you are giving up a lot they aren't. You will never be able to use your degree for the purpose it is intended in your home country, and is therefore committing to either living far away from your family and friends or not using your law degree. Your chances of making academia are slim to none unless you are at Yale, and possibly Harvard and Stanford.

As for me, I lived in the U.S. for quite a few years before I started law school, so I'm pretty confident I want to stay here. I also became a permanent resident before school, so I was eligible for federal loans and didn't have to worry about visa sponsorship. Before law school I worked in a legal-related field with a lot of lawyers, and law seemed like a good fit for me, personally. I always knew I wanted firm work, and worked specifically towards that goal. You will face numerous questions about why you are getting an American law degree. I sure do, and I have not lived in my home country since I was 18, sound like an American, and have substantial work experience here. It's better to think of those reasons now, not after you've already committed to spending three years 7,000 miles away from home and to paying enough money to buy a small Indian town for the pleasure.

[analytic_philosopher]

First, I'm not advising you against law school. It just seemed that you were unsure about what you wanted, given that you changed your OP, and aren't sure you want to do academia or work at a law firm (which are very, very different jobs). If we don't know what you want, it's hard to provide good advice.

If your goal is just to work in the United States, there are much better options than becoming a lawyer, mainly because of the precarious state of the legal market. An MBA is more likely to lead to a job, and is much more marketable globally, as are a variety of other degrees.

If your reasons for wanting to attend law school, specifically, are the same as any American, there is a significant chance that you are doing it for the wrong reason. Most people go to law school for one or more of the following wrong reasons:
(1) They don't have any work experience, and law school will take you straight from undergrad, unlike an MBA.
(2) They didn't get any marketable skills through their liberal arts degree, and therefore think they can't get a "good" job.
(3) They think getting a J.D. is an automatic ticket to a high-paying BigLaw job.
(4) They think a J.D. is a flexible degree where you can do almost anything. Just look at all those people in government and business who have a J.D.!

Your reasons for attending law school should be different than those, and should be different from even a well-informed American, in the sense that you are giving up a lot they aren't. You will never be able to use your degree for the purpose it is intended in your home country, and is therefore committing to either living far away from your family and friends or not using your law degree. Your chances of making academia are slim to none unless you are at Yale, and possibly Harvard and Stanford.

As for me, I lived in the U.S. for quite a few years before I started law school, so I'm pretty confident I want to stay here. I also became a permanent resident before school, so I was eligible for federal loans and didn't have to worry about visa sponsorship. Before law school I worked in a legal-related field with a lot of lawyers, and law seemed like a good fit for me, personally. I always knew I wanted firm work, and worked specifically towards that goal. You will face numerous questions about why you are getting an American law degree. I sure do, and I have not lived in my home country since I was 18, sound like an American, and have substantial work experience here. It's better to think of those reasons now, not after you've already committed to spending three years 7,000 miles away from home and to paying enough money to buy a small Indian town for the pleasure.

Lincoln, thank you very much for your thoughtful responses. As I was reading your list of "wrong" reasons for which Americans go to law school, I mentally checked off every single one of those reasons listed - they all apply to me. However, whether or not they are "wrong" is in my mind debatable. I am a little busy at the moment, but I will come back to this thread later with a detailed response, including a full disclosure of my background and why I am considering going to law school, without which it would be a little difficult to judge whether or not the reasons you listed are "wrong."

Meanwhile, any other perspectives on international students at American law schools would be greatly appreciated!

[analytic_philosopher]

My background in detail:

I'm originally from India but I went to college in America. I graduated from the University of Chicago in 2011 with a BA honors (GPA 3.786). My major was Philosophy and my minor was Mathematics. After graduation I decided to go back home to India for a gap year before grad school (possibly the biggest mistake I made career wise). This month I'm about to begin an MSc program in Logic and Mathematics at the Institute for Logic, Language and Computation (a research institute of the University of Amsterdam). This is a highly regarded institute in the field of Logic and has a good track record of placing its students in strong PhD programs in Europe and in America. The obvious path to follow is an academic career in my field.

However, for various reasons, I'm starting to become rather disillusioned with the possibility of an academic career in the Humanities - both for personal and for market reasons. I still haven't made my decision because I don't have to apply until next year but at this point I'm interested in putting together a solid back-up plan in case I decide against a PhD in Philosophy / Logic (which seems increasingly likely). Law school seems like an attractive option to me for various reasons. Firstly because I think I would be very successful at law school. I can definitely get into a top law school with my grades (and expected LSAT of about 175 based on practice tests). I further think that I would succeed in classes at law school due to my background and skill set.

Another consideration is that I really can't see any other options for me to find work in America if I decide to leave academia. Ideally, I guess I should've gotten a job in America after I finished college - but it's too late for that now. There's really no way for me to apply for jobs in America at this point given that I don't have any professional education / work experience. I guess I could try to pursue a different professional degree in America such as an MBA but I would hardly qualify for that. Therefore, I honestly can't think of any other entry point to a job in America.

Finally, a JD seems to me to strike the perfect balance between an academic and a professional degree. I know that I would really enjoy the work in law school because I used to peruse law journals occasionally as a philosophy student and I found that kind of analysis very interesting for the same reasons that I find philosophy and logic interesting; it depends on a very similar skill set - close reading passages and drawing out the implicit and explicit logical relations between various passages.

[Ramsey]

I'm international as well (graduated from mid-Ivy) and considering law school for similar reasons as OP. Since one of my majors was philosophy as well, I also considered the Univ Amsterdam program in Logic and I know a couple who went there. Like you, I did not look for job in the States (my mistake), and went home for other experiences. Now I am sure that I want to go back to the States for law school and I am applying this fall.


1) Academia: getting a job in academia with logic Ph.D is extremely hard, and finding a good non-academic employment might be even harder. You may be able to find something that you could have gotten only with a master's.

If you want to stay in academia, you may want to consider other Ph.D tracks. I know a guy who, after fininshing the master's program at U Amsterdam, was admitted into one of the top Ph.D programs in computer science, which has far better job prosepcts in and out of academia.


2) Law School: with your 3.78 GPA from U Chicago (even better than you majored in philosophy and math) and 175+ LSAT (you will have to prepare well though - 175 on practice exams doesnt' mean anything until you actually get it) you have a solid chance at every law school. But you will have to explain well in your PS why you decided to go to law school. The question is,

a) do you have funding? you will get some scholly but not all.

b) what do you want to do with your law degree? several friends of mine went to top law schools because THEY CAN, not particularly because THEY WANT. You are obviously a very smart and able person, but you really need to ask yourself why you want to become a lawyer. A couple of the said people ended low in their class because they weren't as motivated and desperate as some of their peers. Others did okay, but they weren't prepared as others in terms of looking for opportunities.

Good luck! and whatever you decide, take LSAT after much preparation.

[Ozymandias]

[back-up plan]: Law school seems like an attractive option to me for various reasons. Firstly because I think I would be very successful at law school. I can definitely get into a top law school with my grades (and expected LSAT of about 175 based on practice tests). I further think that I would succeed in classes at law school due to my background and skill set.

Another consideration is that I really can't see any other options for me to find work in America if I decide to leave academia.

Those are terrible reasons to go to law school, especially given how much it costs.

[analytic_philosopher]

Those are terrible reasons to go to law school, especially given how much it costs.

Well, thanks for your opinion, but it's difficult for me to consider your advice unless you elaborate on that a little bit. Obviously I'm aware of the cost of law school - but the cost is the same for everybody. From what I've read on these forums the general advice seems to be that the cost is worth it if you can get into a good T14 school (and these are the only schools I'm aiming for).

Also, you seem to be ignoring the part where I said that I want to live and work in America.