How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School? Forum
- brose
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?
I was a low LSAT/high GPA and finished high. I think it's a combo of luck/work habit/curve.... which means... learn how to take a law school exam.
- androstan
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?
I think the performance of high LSAT splitters has to do with the degree to which they have "reformed." Most of us (I had a 2.9) slacked off and/or screwed around too much. If that's still your attitude and maturity level, you will likely perform about as well as your UGPA+LSAT aggregate predicts. If you've grown up, you'll probably perform about as your LSAT predicts. I'm mostly reformed, got an LSAT a little above the 75th percentile at the school I attend, and am performing about on par with that. My UGPA+LSAT aggregate would have me near the bottom of the class, though.
For high GPA splitters (so-called "reverse splitters") it's a question of what their numbers represent. The more competitive your UG sool/program and the less they grade-inflate, the more your UGPA indicates you can grind out the long study hours to produce high grades. The harder you had to prep for a relatively low LSAT, the more it indicates you have difficulty working under the pressure of severe time-constraints. The main point is, for reverse splitters, not much usually changes between UG and LS, whereas regular splitters often "clean up their act" and perform better. Of course, some don't.
Disclaimer: Statistically the correlation between LSAT and LS grades is weak but not insignificant. Statistically the correlation between UGPA and LS grades is even weaker, but still not insignificant. The correlation between LSAT+UGPA aggregate is a bit tighter, but still with plenty of scatter. Both metrics have inherent problems. The LSAT shows bias amongst races, even when accounting for SES, and the reason(s) is/are unknown. UGPA varies wildly depending on the the school, the major, the individual professor, and if you forgot to set your alarm the morning of your final.
For high GPA splitters (so-called "reverse splitters") it's a question of what their numbers represent. The more competitive your UG sool/program and the less they grade-inflate, the more your UGPA indicates you can grind out the long study hours to produce high grades. The harder you had to prep for a relatively low LSAT, the more it indicates you have difficulty working under the pressure of severe time-constraints. The main point is, for reverse splitters, not much usually changes between UG and LS, whereas regular splitters often "clean up their act" and perform better. Of course, some don't.
Disclaimer: Statistically the correlation between LSAT and LS grades is weak but not insignificant. Statistically the correlation between UGPA and LS grades is even weaker, but still not insignificant. The correlation between LSAT+UGPA aggregate is a bit tighter, but still with plenty of scatter. Both metrics have inherent problems. The LSAT shows bias amongst races, even when accounting for SES, and the reason(s) is/are unknown. UGPA varies wildly depending on the the school, the major, the individual professor, and if you forgot to set your alarm the morning of your final.
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?
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Last edited by timetoleave on Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- YYZ
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?
I believe the LSAC or ABA publishes data each year on the correlation between LSAT score and UGPA and 1L grades. I haven't looked at it for quite some time, but I think it showed that LSAT and UGPA were both good indicators of 1L grades with LSAT being a slightly better indicator (i.e. higher LSAT = better grades).
However, I think that people with lower LSAT or lower UGPA tend to overcome weaknesses by working with others in the class to master the material. It seems that people in class tend to "hear" the material slightly differently. Or, you may have a hard time keeping up with the professor during the lecture. If so, you can overcome this by working with others in the class. It's a good idea to compare your class notes with at least one other person and collectively come to a consensus on what the prof was trying to say. If the study group reaches no consensus on a particular point, you can then ask the prof for clarification. Even the "smartest" person in the study group/study pair will benefit by teaching the material to the other people who need help.
If you work efficiently with others to master the material, prepare a good outline, and master the outline, I think you're in a good position to do well on the exam. From there, your ability to spot the issues (i.e. the important issues according to the prof) and write convincing arguments on both sides of the argument will most likely determine your grade. There is no substitute for studying smart and efficiently.
Just my opinion after the first year.
However, I think that people with lower LSAT or lower UGPA tend to overcome weaknesses by working with others in the class to master the material. It seems that people in class tend to "hear" the material slightly differently. Or, you may have a hard time keeping up with the professor during the lecture. If so, you can overcome this by working with others in the class. It's a good idea to compare your class notes with at least one other person and collectively come to a consensus on what the prof was trying to say. If the study group reaches no consensus on a particular point, you can then ask the prof for clarification. Even the "smartest" person in the study group/study pair will benefit by teaching the material to the other people who need help.
If you work efficiently with others to master the material, prepare a good outline, and master the outline, I think you're in a good position to do well on the exam. From there, your ability to spot the issues (i.e. the important issues according to the prof) and write convincing arguments on both sides of the argument will most likely determine your grade. There is no substitute for studying smart and efficiently.
Just my opinion after the first year.
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?
Very good friend from college was 3.4/180 and is currently in the top 2-3% at NYU after 1L. Then again, another very good friend from college was a reverse splitter (4.1/170) and barely missed Kent at CLS. Not sure that this proves anything other than that unbalanced applicants can do super well in law school.
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- Icculus
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?
This is really the most important part.brose wrote:learn how to take a law school exam.
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?
Just read some of the posts by TLS morons who aced the LSAT. It'll make you feel better. It def helps me.Kring345 wrote:To be honest, this is me, and, as a result, Im kinda shitting my pants getting ready for CLS. Though still probably well above average compared to the general population, I dont have a lot of pure, raw brain power. Everything Ive accomplished in life (albeit a lot of good stuff) has been the direct result of hard work and "caring" more than most people.abc12345675 wrote:High GPA, low LSAT though is questionable to me. Could be a product of easy undergrad, hard worker, but lower intelligence
- Stringer6
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?
4.1/170 is a splitter?smittytron3k wrote:Very good friend from college was 3.4/180 and is currently in the top 2-3% at NYU after 1L. Then again, another very good friend from college was a reverse splitter (4.1/170) and barely missed Kent at CLS. Not sure that this proves anything other than that unbalanced applicants can do super well in law school.
- dpk711
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?
By definition I don't think it is. The 25th for CLS is 170.Stringer6 wrote:4.1/170 is a splitter?smittytron3k wrote:Very good friend from college was 3.4/180 and is currently in the top 2-3% at NYU after 1L. Then again, another very good friend from college was a reverse splitter (4.1/170) and barely missed Kent at CLS. Not sure that this proves anything other than that unbalanced applicants can do super well in law school.
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?
Maybe at Columbia, but still, CLS is probably not a great example because 90% of the class has 170+. A school which takes lots of both splitters and reverse splitters, like UVA, might be a better test case.Stringer6 wrote:4.1/170 is a splitter?smittytron3k wrote:Very good friend from college was 3.4/180 and is currently in the top 2-3% at NYU after 1L. Then again, another very good friend from college was a reverse splitter (4.1/170) and barely missed Kent at CLS. Not sure that this proves anything other than that unbalanced applicants can do super well in law school.
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?
You're more of a semi-splitter (who got in RD, at that), so lumping yourself in with the 170+s close to a 3.0 who snuck in the ED side door doesn't make much sense.dpk711 wrote:These are just people I know in law school so take it with a grain of salt. Most of the splitters I know (myself included) did above median their 1L year. The reverse-splitters I know though haven't fared as well. Again, I don't want to generalize, but it's a trend I've noticed at least among classmates I know.
To throw in more anecdotal evidence, among the people I've discussed grades/numbers with, I haven't seen much of a correlation between LSAT/GPA and law school success. After all, most of us hover in the same LSAT ballpark. I wouldn't put money on a 171/3.2 outperforming a 167/4.0 (or vice versa). It's only when you get to people who score leaps and bounds below the median that score differences really start to mean something.
- spleenworship
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?
I was a splitter with a LSAT above my school's 75% and a GPA right at my school's 25%. I was top third at the end of 1L.
I know a reverse splitter who had a 4.0 and a below my school's median LSAT who is bottom 10%.
Anecdotal, but it seems to be the story across the board.
I know a reverse splitter who had a 4.0 and a below my school's median LSAT who is bottom 10%.
Anecdotal, but it seems to be the story across the board.
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?
Interesting question, but nothing but no real way to answer it (except for anecdotes and musings).
I was a splitter and I performed well. But I hit the ground running and studied about 1000 times harder than I did in undergrad.
I was a splitter and I performed well. But I hit the ground running and studied about 1000 times harder than I did in undergrad.
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?
How far below the median though?spleenworship wrote:I was a splitter with a LSAT above my school's 75% and a GPA right at my school's 25%. I was top third at the end of 1L.
I know a reverse splitter who had a 4.0 and a below my school's median LSAT who is bottom 10%.
Anecdotal, but it seems to be the story across the board.
- queenlizzie13
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?
Reverse splitter who did well. I traditionally do bad on standardized tests though. Still, I think as long as you are a similar range, LSAT score wise, you can do well. There's a lot more factors at play here.
- FlanAl
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?
I know at least one splitter who didn't do super well.
- JoeFish
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?
Probably about exactly as well as non-splitters. Or, my guess (based on extremely simplistic reasoning) is that, since they were generally at opposite extremes of the two possible indicators, they have the same median but are more spread out about that median.
For what it's worth, I know of at least one splitter who did well by working really really hard, and at least one splitter who did well by doing almost no work and coasting by on natural ability. I basically only know the general performance of about 5 people total, so I really can't provide more than a couple isolated data points.
For what it's worth, I know of at least one splitter who did well by working really really hard, and at least one splitter who did well by doing almost no work and coasting by on natural ability. I basically only know the general performance of about 5 people total, so I really can't provide more than a couple isolated data points.
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- spleenworship
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?
HeavenWood wrote:How far below the median though?spleenworship wrote:I was a splitter with a LSAT above my school's 75% and a GPA right at my school's 25%. I was top third at the end of 1L.
I know a reverse splitter who had a 4.0 and a below my school's median LSAT who is bottom 10%.
Anecdotal, but it seems to be the story across the board.
On academic probation. A 1.9 GPA I believe. So nearly 1.0 below median.
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?
I meant how far below the LSAT median.spleenworship wrote:HeavenWood wrote:How far below the median though?spleenworship wrote:I was a splitter with a LSAT above my school's 75% and a GPA right at my school's 25%. I was top third at the end of 1L.
I know a reverse splitter who had a 4.0 and a below my school's median LSAT who is bottom 10%.
Anecdotal, but it seems to be the story across the board.
On academic probation. A 1.9 GPA I believe. So nearly 1.0 below median.
- spleenworship
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?
Ah. 6 points. And our median that year was in the 150s.HeavenWood wrote:I meant how far below the LSAT median.spleenworship wrote:HeavenWood wrote:How far below the median though?spleenworship wrote:I was a splitter with a LSAT above my school's 75% and a GPA right at my school's 25%. I was top third at the end of 1L.
I know a reverse splitter who had a 4.0 and a below my school's median LSAT who is bottom 10%.
Anecdotal, but it seems to be the story across the board.
On academic probation. A 1.9 GPA I believe. So nearly 1.0 below median.
- shepdawg
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?
I know someone who had a high gpa and a very bad LSAT, and am top 2% as a 3L. I think hard work combined with the ability to cope with stress can overcome being stupid.
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?
Or maybe not everyone who scores lower on the LSAT is stupid (and vise versa).shepdawg wrote:I know someone who had a high gpa and a very bad LSAT, and am top 2% as a 3L. I think hard work combined with the ability to cope with stress can overcome being stupid.
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?
My own preformance: top half on LSAT and top ten percent of class after 1L.
- Icculus
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?
Please tell me he/she is considering dropping out.spleenworship wrote:HeavenWood wrote:How far below the median though?spleenworship wrote:I was a splitter with a LSAT above my school's 75% and a GPA right at my school's 25%. I was top third at the end of 1L.
I know a reverse splitter who had a 4.0 and a below my school's median LSAT who is bottom 10%.
Anecdotal, but it seems to be the story across the board.
On academic probation. A 1.9 GPA I believe. So nearly 1.0 below median.
- spleenworship
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?
Nope. Also doesn't want to be an attorney.Icculus wrote:Please tell me he/she is considering dropping out.spleenworship wrote:HeavenWood wrote:How far below the median though?spleenworship wrote:I was a splitter with a LSAT above my school's 75% and a GPA right at my school's 25%. I was top third at the end of 1L.
I know a reverse splitter who had a 4.0 and a below my school's median LSAT who is bottom 10%.
Anecdotal, but it seems to be the story across the board.
On academic probation. A 1.9 GPA I believe. So nearly 1.0 below median.
In their defense, they have full ride that is in no way GPA dependant.
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