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http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012 ... ine-degree

In an unusual move among highly ranked traditional law schools, the Washington University Law School today unveiled a fully online master’s degree program in U.S. law. The program will be designed and taught by Washington Law faculty using a platform developed by 2tor, a Maryland-based online education provider. It will begin enrolling students in January 2013.

Discuss?

traehekat wrote:http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012 ... ine-degree

In an unusual move among highly ranked traditional law schools, the Washington University Law School today unveiled a fully online master’s degree program in U.S. law. The program will be designed and taught by Washington Law faculty using a platform developed by 2tor, a Maryland-based online education provider. It will begin enrolling students in January 2013.

Discuss?

So TTT.

It's an LLM who cares?

2014 wrote:It's an LLM who cares?

The program does not offer a path to a J.D., and is not designed to prepare students to take the bar exam -- although the American Bar Association (ABA), the sector’s most powerful regulatory body, has “acquiesced” to Washington Law's new online program, and about a dozen states will permit its graduates to sit for the bar exam, according to school officials.

It's an "LLM" that will allow some people to sit for the bar without a JD.

Also lol at "is not designed to prepare students to take the bar exam." What law school is?

CyLaw wrote:

2014 wrote:It's an LLM who cares?

The program does not offer a path to a J.D., and is not designed to prepare students to take the bar exam -- although the American Bar Association (ABA), the sector’s most powerful regulatory body, has “acquiesced” to Washington Law's new online program, and about a dozen states will permit its graduates to sit for the bar exam, according to school officials.

It's an "LLM" that will allow some people to sit for the bar without a JD.

Also lol at "is not designed to prepare students to take the bar exam." What law school is?

It's strictly for foreign students, so will not affect 99.9999999% of the people on TLS.

notedgarfigaro wrote:

CyLaw wrote:

2014 wrote:It's an LLM who cares?

The program does not offer a path to a J.D., and is not designed to prepare students to take the bar exam -- although the American Bar Association (ABA), the sector’s most powerful regulatory body, has “acquiesced” to Washington Law's new online program, and about a dozen states will permit its graduates to sit for the bar exam, according to school officials.

It's an "LLM" that will allow some people to sit for the bar without a JD.

Also lol at "is not designed to prepare students to take the bar exam." What law school is?

It's strictly for foreign students, so will not affect 99.9999999% of the people on TLS.

And ... I completely missed that. I have no problem with this program then. Just another LLM program.

I don't see this development as "just another LLM program", but, rather, as a first step.

More online programs & more competition. Foreign lawyers will be able to compete for US based legal positions just as foreign educated engineers do. And, thanks to low cost online degrees, they won't have six figure debt which means lower salaries.

I'm in an online program in a different field and I've had a real positive experience. It has its shortcomings and I would prefer to be on campus, but I feel like I'm getting a similar educational experience to my on-campus peers. That said, I would never want to do law school online. If schools are going to start shifting this way in the future, I think there should be some kind of sorting process where only people with a clear need for online courses get them. Online course should augment, not replace, on-campus courses and/or fill a niche.

Unfortunately, that time is long gone.

I think the problem is that there is a real "stigma" with online degrees. That stigma might in turn hurt WUSTL's reputation. Furthermore, unveiling an online program makes WUSTL seem desperate for $$.

I went to their website and it's not a low cost online degree. Tuition is $50,040.
It's a LLM only for foreign lawyers and I actually think it is a good idea the way it is designed (live classes of aprox 15 students).
I had tons of professors in my law school in my home country that requested 1 year off their work to go to the US to pursue an LLM just to be more qualified. All of them came back and are still teaching and working as corporate lawyers and for the government. Now people will have the option to do a LLM without needing to leave their countries. Good for them.
I also believe this is good for lawyers that work with US law and have their LLMs funded by their firms.
And I don't think that a foreign lawyer that does this LLM will be so competitive, since he won't be in the US. It is not easy for a foreigner to get a job with his law degree plus a LLM, specially without being in the US. I know a brilliant girl that graduated from a top law school in my country, did her LLM at Chicago, passed the NY bar and had to come back because nobody hired her.

It's much lower cost because only tuition & fees are needed as one can continue to live & work in their home country. Travel, relocation & giving up one's job is expensive--so this option is easily half-price of the current alternative.

WashUStL is creating competition for US based attorney positions from foreign lawyers now qualified to sit for US bar exams. More competition = lower wages & salaries. If you think that only WashUStl will be offering this entre to the US legal market for foreign lawyers, then I think that you are mistaken.

P.S. Instead of "out-sourcing" US legal work to foreign lawyers, US based law firms & companies will now be able to "in-source" work to foreign lawyers at discounted rates. If you doubt this, then you should familiarize yourself with the market for engineers.

CanadianWolf wrote:It's much lower cost because only tuition & fees are needed as one can continue to live & work in their home country. Travel, relocation & giving up one's job is expensive--so this option is easily half-price of the current alternative.

WashUStL is creating competition for US based attorney positions from foreign lawyers now qualified to sit for US bar exams. More competition = lower wages & salaries. If you think that only WashUStl will be offering this entre to the US legal market for foreign lawyers, then I think that you are mistaken.

P.S. Instead of "out-sourcing" US legal work to foreign lawyers, US based law firms & companies will now be able to "in-source" work to foreign lawyers at discounted rates. If you doubt this, then you should familiarize yourself with the market for engineers.

I don't know, maybe I am biased because I am a foreign lawyer.
At NYU ASD I actually talked to two foreign lawyers that work at a program there and both told me I made the right decision when I chose to pursue a JD. They told me it would be very very difficult to get a job with just an LLM.
Also, there is a huge bureaucracy to hire an international and sponsor a visa. I believe many employers dislike this.
I actually have a brother (also foreigner) and he applied to lots of engineering jobs. He got tons of "you are very qualified, but you're international and we don't hire internationals..." The only offer he got was from Apple, which was the best place to where he applied. They just don't care they have to spend money on visa and stuff. As an international, it was easier for my brother to get a "top" job than a more regular job.

Your brother's experience belies reality in the engineering world.

Regarding law: just wait & see. By the time US lawyers realize what is happening, it will be too late to close that door. Already a dozen US states have agreed to permit foreign lawyers with an on-line US LLM sit for their state bar exam. If not a concern, then why is this fact even included in the WashUStL announcement ?

I don't see anything that says that this degree is "strictly" for foreign students. I found primarily in the article, and nothing under admissions requirements here http://law.wustl.edu/llmint/index.aspx. Perhaps the title "...for Foreign Lawyers" might restrict the admissions, but I see nothing that explicitly outlaws it. Anyone have information that I'm missing?

Why would a US based lawyer want to obtain a "general LLM degree" ? Continuing legal education credits can be obtained much easier (one day seminars) & much cheaper.

CanadianWolf wrote:Your brother's experience belies reality in the engineering world.

Regarding law: just wait & see. By the time US lawyers realize what is happening, it will be too late to close that door. Already a dozen US states have agreed to permit foreign lawyers with an on-line US LLM sit for their state bar exam. If not a concern, then why is this fact even included in the WashUStL announcement ?

The engineering and law markets just work differently. Probably because engineering is much more results oriented. You can get an F1B dooder and tell if he is fucking up. And your clients don't see the f1b doods. Nobody cares if it just works.

Lawyers are prestige whores. dla piper could find a legion of American JDs and pay them 35K a year. But they don't.

Incubateus wrote:I don't see anything that says that this degree is "strictly" for foreign students. I found primarily in the article, and nothing under admissions requirements here http://law.wustl.edu/llmint/index.aspx. Perhaps the title "...for Foreign Lawyers" might restrict the admissions, but I see nothing that explicitly outlaws it. Anyone have information that I'm missing?

This is straight from Dean Syverud's email to the student body

We are not currently planning any other online programs, and @WashULaw will focus exclusively on foreign law students pursuing an LL.M. in U.S. law.