Top Law Schools

0L going to UT in the fall. Should I buy all the E&Es and read them cover to cover or just get boozed every weekend.

booze

Both

Stock up on hard liquor. Once you're living on only school loans, drinking all the time gets expensive.

you should buy all the E&Es and read them in page order

i.e. read every page 1, then every page 2, etc.

you'll absorb the info better this way, especially if you are drunk

I was all for preparing, but then I visited law schools. The "you can't say you'll get top 20% because everyone is trying to get top twenty percent" thing on TLS is overblown, if even just a little. Four lectures down and I can already see where professors are putting points of emphasis and where students aren't listening. Not to say I'll ace exams or anything, but visiting really swayed me to the "pay attention, take notes, and really just do what your professor tells you to" side of things.

one classroom I sat with six peoples laptops visible to me. Two facebook, one internet based game, one text message guy, one girl taking notes sporadically while she chatted on AIM or yahoo messenger (could see that well) and the classroom gunner who tried to copy everything while also challenging every position the instructor took on anything. Anything.

All of them were taking notes, but very sporadically (except the gunner guy), and few were listening to the explanations. Get the key terms and main points, and then back to whatever social activity they were doing.

Fark-o-vision wrote:I was all for preparing, but then I visited law schools. The "you can't say you'll get top 20% because everyone is trying to get top twenty percent" thing on TLS is overblown, if even just a little. Four lectures down and I can already see where professors are putting points of emphasis and where students aren't listening. Not to say I'll ace exams or anything, but visiting really swayed me to the "pay attention, take notes, and really just do what your professor tells you to" side of things.

one classroom I sat with six peoples laptops visible to me. Two facebook, one internet based game, one text message guy, one girl taking notes sporadically while she chatted on AIM or yahoo messenger (could see that well) and the classroom gunner who tried to copy everything while also challenging every position the instructor took on anything. Anything.

All of them were taking notes, but very sporadically (except the gunner guy), and few were listening to the explanations. Get the key terms and main points, and then back to whatever social activity they were doing.

i guess you didn't go to class much in college huh

Fark-o-vision wrote:I was all for preparing, but then I visited law schools. The "you can't say you'll get top 20% because everyone is trying to get top twenty percent" thing on TLS is overblown, if even just a little. Four lectures down and I can already see where professors are putting points of emphasis and where students aren't listening. Not to say I'll ace exams or anything, but visiting really swayed me to the "pay attention, take notes, and really just do what your professor tells you to" side of things.

one classroom I sat with six peoples laptops visible to me. Two facebook, one internet based game, one text message guy, one girl taking notes sporadically while she chatted on AIM or yahoo messenger (could see that well) and the classroom gunner who tried to copy everything while also challenging every position the instructor took on anything. Anything.

All of them were taking notes, but very sporadically (except the gunner guy), and few were listening to the explanations. Get the key terms and main points, and then back to whatever social activity they were doing.

What this poster's trying to say is get boozed now and get to (serious) work once you are in law school.

You've sat in on four lectures? Jesus.

OP: get yourself and your life organized and relax.

Fark-o-vision wrote:I was all for preparing, but then I visited law schools. The "you can't say you'll get top 20% because everyone is trying to get top twenty percent" thing on TLS is overblown, if even just a little. Four lectures down and I can already see where professors are putting points of emphasis and where students aren't listening. Not to say I'll ace exams or anything, but visiting really swayed me to the "pay attention, take notes, and really just do what your professor tells you to" side of things.

one classroom I sat with six peoples laptops visible to me. Two facebook, one internet based game, one text message guy, one girl taking notes sporadically while she chatted on AIM or yahoo messenger (could see that well) and the classroom gunner who tried to copy everything while also challenging every position the instructor took on anything. Anything.

All of them were taking notes, but very sporadically (except the gunner guy), and few were listening to the explanations. Get the key terms and main points, and then back to whatever social activity they were doing.

Four lectures? So, you have the equivalent of one day of law school under your belt? And you're already claiming it's easy to finish in the top 20%? lol

Law students are a riot.

Fark-o-vision wrote:I was all for preparing, but then I visited law schools. The "you can't say you'll get top 20% because everyone is trying to get top twenty percent" thing on TLS is overblown, if even just a little. Four lectures down and I can already see where professors are putting points of emphasis and where students aren't listening. Not to say I'll ace exams or anything, but visiting really swayed me to the "pay attention, take notes, and really just do what your professor tells you to" side of things.

one classroom I sat with six peoples laptops visible to me. Two facebook, one internet based game, one text message guy, one girl taking notes sporadically while she chatted on AIM or yahoo messenger (could see that well) and the classroom gunner who tried to copy everything while also challenging every position the instructor took on anything. Anything.

All of them were taking notes, but very sporadically (except the gunner guy), and few were listening to the explanations. Get the key terms and main points, and then back to whatever social activity they were doing.

FYI 0L, most learning is not done in the classroom... you'll figure this out eventually...

Compaq1984 wrote:
FYI 0L, most learning is not done in the classroom... you'll figure this out eventually...

That doesn't mean it isn't important to pay attention in class. Most people say that's how you pickup extra points on exams.. tailoring it to the prof

OP, if you haven't already started outlining for Contracts, you're headed for median at best.

(and to the kid who took a field trip to law school and thought he understood what was going on: you didn't.)

Fark-o-vision wrote:I was all for preparing, but then I visited law schools. The "you can't say you'll get top 20% because everyone is trying to get top twenty percent" thing on TLS is overblown, if even just a little. Four lectures down and I can already see where professors are putting points of emphasis and where students aren't listening. Not to say I'll ace exams or anything, but visiting really swayed me to the "pay attention, take notes, and really just do what your professor tells you to" side of things.

one classroom I sat with six peoples laptops visible to me. Two facebook, one internet based game, one text message guy, one girl taking notes sporadically while she chatted on AIM or yahoo messenger (could see that well) and the classroom gunner who tried to copy everything while also challenging every position the instructor took on anything. Anything.

All of them were taking notes, but very sporadically (except the gunner guy), and few were listening to the explanations. Get the key terms and main points, and then back to whatever social activity they were doing.

Something tells me we have a future median student talking here. Wow, so you sat in on a few classes, and think you have any idea what it takes to do well? And because you saw kids on facebook, that means you got those types beat already? Boy do you have a lot to learn. You will realize soon enough how harmful your preconceptions will be, and the numerous assumptions you make along the way will only serve to humble you in the end.

sooooo being on facebook and not paying attention in class helps you get good grades?

Fark-o-vision wrote:I was all for preparing, but then I visited law schools.

This is priceless.

OP: As someone who did a bit of 0L prep and then did well first semester, here's my advice:

Read Getting to Maybe and the most well-respected articles on TLS on doing well in law school - xeoh, Arrow, etc. Everything else was pretty useless for me.
If you can't type fast, learn to.
Otherwise, just get as much of your life in order as you can so you have as much time as possible to focus on school. Have a pretty solid exercise regimen. Get an idea of how you'll eat healthfully while at school. If you're commuting, make sure your car is in good shape - something I wish I'd done.

Read a bit of E&Es if it relieves your anxiety - it can't hurt - but after going through a semester of school, I'm solidly in the camp that says it won't help. They'll only help once you have an idea of what your professor is looking for.

FlanAl wrote:sooooo being on facebook and not paying attention in class helps you get good grades?

It's possible (and actually surprisingly common) to get great grades without ever paying attention in class. I pay attention in class but I happen to know quite a few people who did really well after dicking around in class all semester. I had one class last semester where I honestly believe I would have graded better had I paid less attention to what the professor said.

dakatz wrote:

Fark-o-vision wrote:I was all for preparing, but then I visited law schools. The "you can't say you'll get top 20% because everyone is trying to get top twenty percent" thing on TLS is overblown, if even just a little. Four lectures down and I can already see where professors are putting points of emphasis and where students aren't listening. Not to say I'll ace exams or anything, but visiting really swayed me to the "pay attention, take notes, and really just do what your professor tells you to" side of things.

one classroom I sat with six peoples laptops visible to me. Two facebook, one internet based game, one text message guy, one girl taking notes sporadically while she chatted on AIM or yahoo messenger (could see that well) and the classroom gunner who tried to copy everything while also challenging every position the instructor took on anything. Anything.

All of them were taking notes, but very sporadically (except the gunner guy), and few were listening to the explanations. Get the key terms and main points, and then back to whatever social activity they were doing.

Something tells me we have a future median student talking here. Wow, so you sat in on a few classes, and think you have any idea what it takes to do well? And because you saw kids on facebook, that means you got those types beat already? Boy do you have a lot to learn. You will realize soon enough how harmful your preconceptions will be, and the numerous assumptions you make along the way will only serve to humble you in the end.

Not a lot of careful readers in here. Okay, I'll slow down.

I didn't say I would do well, in fact I only indicated that I assumed the opposite was still possible. What I did say was that the TLS conception of students as extra dedicated in Law school is pretty erroneous. Not everyone is trying as hard as everyone else to get top 20%.

I suppose I have to mention that there is going to be 1) students who don't try particularly hard and end up top 20% anyway and 2) students who try harder than anyone and through either doing it wrong or natural ability still find themselves at median. The only thing you can control is how hard you try. Where you end up is the product of too many factors.

As far as paying attention in class, if you don't think you're going to benefit from understanding how the professor sees the law, and how they believe it applies to cases, then all right. You go with that. You've got more experience in this setting than I do, so I won't try and argue, but I will say that would be pretty anomalous across any field that I've studied.

As far as four lectures goes, I know. It isn't a lot of class time, though its also too much for a 0L. If someone knows a polite way to turn down a classroom visit, I'd like to know. I have three more schools I'm going to check out.

Fark-o-vision wrote:

dakatz wrote:

Fark-o-vision wrote:I was all for preparing, but then I visited law schools. The "you can't say you'll get top 20% because everyone is trying to get top twenty percent" thing on TLS is overblown, if even just a little. Four lectures down and I can already see where professors are putting points of emphasis and where students aren't listening. Not to say I'll ace exams or anything, but visiting really swayed me to the "pay attention, take notes, and really just do what your professor tells you to" side of things.

one classroom I sat with six peoples laptops visible to me. Two facebook, one internet based game, one text message guy, one girl taking notes sporadically while she chatted on AIM or yahoo messenger (could see that well) and the classroom gunner who tried to copy everything while also challenging every position the instructor took on anything. Anything.

All of them were taking notes, but very sporadically (except the gunner guy), and few were listening to the explanations. Get the key terms and main points, and then back to whatever social activity they were doing.

Something tells me we have a future median student talking here. Wow, so you sat in on a few classes, and think you have any idea what it takes to do well? And because you saw kids on facebook, that means you got those types beat already? Boy do you have a lot to learn. You will realize soon enough how harmful your preconceptions will be, and the numerous assumptions you make along the way will only serve to humble you in the end.

Not a lot of careful readers in here. Okay, I'll slow down.

I didn't say I would do well, in fact I only indicated that I assumed the opposite was still possible. What I did say was that the TLS conception of students as extra dedicated in Law school is pretty erroneous. Not everyone is trying as hard as everyone else to get top 20%.

I suppose I have to mention that there is going to be 1) students who don't try particularly hard and end up top 20% anyway and 2) students who try harder than anyone and through either doing it wrong or natural ability still find themselves at median. The only thing you can control is how hard you try. Where you end up is the product of too many factors.

As far as paying attention in class, if you don't think you're going to benefit from understanding how the professor sees the law, and how they believe it applies to cases, then all right. You go with that. You've got more experience in this setting than I do, so I won't try and argue, but I will say that would be pretty anomalous across any field that I've studied.

As far as four lectures goes, I know. It isn't a lot of class time, though its also too much for a 0L. If someone knows a polite way to turn down a classroom visit, I'd like to know. I have three more schools I'm going to check out.

The error in your logic: Students on facebook in class are not trying to get top grades.

EDIT: In law school, you can almost think of class as a review session. It can sometimes also be a rare block of time where you're not reading/reviewing/sleeping.

ogurty wrote:

Fark-o-vision wrote:I was all for preparing, but then I visited law schools.

This is priceless.

OP: As someone who did a bit of 0L prep and then did well first semester, here's my advice:

Read Getting to Maybe and the most well-respected articles on TLS on doing well in law school - xeoh, Arrow, etc. Everything else was pretty useless for me.
If you can't type fast, learn to.
Otherwise, just get as much of your life in order as you can so you have as much time as possible to focus on school. Have a pretty solid exercise regimen. Get an idea of how you'll eat healthfully while at school. If you're commuting, make sure your car is in good shape - something I wish I'd done.

Read a bit of E&Es if it relieves your anxiety - it can't hurt - but after going through a semester of school, I'm solidly in the camp that says it won't help. They'll only help once you have an idea of what your professor is looking for.

Not to post back to back, but sounds entirely reasonable. This isn't how I was reading the original post, but it's good advice.

To answer OP's question: DO NOT DO SUBSTANTIVE PREP!!! Def read up about law school exams (Getting to Maybe, LEEWS perhaps). A book like Law School Confidential can't hurt to get an overarching picture of what the whole process is like, and it gives some good advice. Take some time to fix up your resume. Contact alumni from the school you will be attending. Contacts and networking are essential, and your school's alumni will be happy to speak with you in most cases. I tried to read E&E's and it was a complete waste of time. I did well first semester, and the prep I did before school had absolutely nothing to do with it, and probably hindered me a bit for awhile since I came in thinking i knew stuff, when the professor had a different view on things.

Heartford wrote:

Fark-o-vision wrote:

dakatz wrote:

Fark-o-vision wrote:I was all for preparing, but then I visited law schools. The "you can't say you'll get top 20% because everyone is trying to get top twenty percent" thing on TLS is overblown, if even just a little. Four lectures down and I can already see where professors are putting points of emphasis and where students aren't listening. Not to say I'll ace exams or anything, but visiting really swayed me to the "pay attention, take notes, and really just do what your professor tells you to" side of things.

one classroom I sat with six peoples laptops visible to me. Two facebook, one internet based game, one text message guy, one girl taking notes sporadically while she chatted on AIM or yahoo messenger (could see that well) and the classroom gunner who tried to copy everything while also challenging every position the instructor took on anything. Anything.

All of them were taking notes, but very sporadically (except the gunner guy), and few were listening to the explanations. Get the key terms and main points, and then back to whatever social activity they were doing.

Something tells me we have a future median student talking here. Wow, so you sat in on a few classes, and think you have any idea what it takes to do well? And because you saw kids on facebook, that means you got those types beat already? Boy do you have a lot to learn. You will realize soon enough how harmful your preconceptions will be, and the numerous assumptions you make along the way will only serve to humble you in the end.

Not a lot of careful readers in here. Okay, I'll slow down.

I didn't say I would do well, in fact I only indicated that I assumed the opposite was still possible. What I did say was that the TLS conception of students as extra dedicated in Law school is pretty erroneous. Not everyone is trying as hard as everyone else to get top 20%.

I suppose I have to mention that there is going to be 1) students who don't try particularly hard and end up top 20% anyway and 2) students who try harder than anyone and through either doing it wrong or natural ability still find themselves at median. The only thing you can control is how hard you try. Where you end up is the product of too many factors.

As far as paying attention in class, if you don't think you're going to benefit from understanding how the professor sees the law, and how they believe it applies to cases, then all right. You go with that. You've got more experience in this setting than I do, so I won't try and argue, but I will say that would be pretty anomalous across any field that I've studied.

As far as four lectures goes, I know. It isn't a lot of class time, though its also too much for a 0L. If someone knows a polite way to turn down a classroom visit, I'd like to know. I have three more schools I'm going to check out.

The error in your logic: Students on facebook in class are not trying to get top grades.

I would argue that there is a difference between trying and desiring and further difference between trying the right way (which only students who have done well and graduated can be sure of, and then only in so far as it applies to them) and simply trying.

Fark-o-vision wrote: I would argue that there is a difference between trying and desiring and further difference between trying the right way (which only students who have done well and graduated can be sure of, and then only in so far as it applies to them) and simply trying.

Ok, but you went to 4 classes and thought that you witnessed students who weren't "trying the right way," even though you didn't really know what you were looking at.

Fark-o-vision wrote:

dakatz wrote:

Fark-o-vision wrote:I was all for preparing, but then I visited law schools. The "you can't say you'll get top 20% because everyone is trying to get top twenty percent" thing on TLS is overblown, if even just a little. Four lectures down and I can already see where professors are putting points of emphasis and where students aren't listening. Not to say I'll ace exams or anything, but visiting really swayed me to the "pay attention, take notes, and really just do what your professor tells you to" side of things.

one classroom I sat with six peoples laptops visible to me. Two facebook, one internet based game, one text message guy, one girl taking notes sporadically while she chatted on AIM or yahoo messenger (could see that well) and the classroom gunner who tried to copy everything while also challenging every position the instructor took on anything. Anything.

All of them were taking notes, but very sporadically (except the gunner guy), and few were listening to the explanations. Get the key terms and main points, and then back to whatever social activity they were doing.

Something tells me we have a future median student talking here. Wow, so you sat in on a few classes, and think you have any idea what it takes to do well? And because you saw kids on facebook, that means you got those types beat already? Boy do you have a lot to learn. You will realize soon enough how harmful your preconceptions will be, and the numerous assumptions you make along the way will only serve to humble you in the end.

Not a lot of careful readers in here. Okay, I'll slow down.

I didn't say I would do well, in fact I only indicated that I assumed the opposite was still possible. What I did say was that the TLS conception of students as extra dedicated in Law school is pretty erroneous. Not everyone is trying as hard as everyone else to get top 20%.

I suppose I have to mention that there is going to be 1) students who don't try particularly hard and end up top 20% anyway and 2) students who try harder than anyone and through either doing it wrong or natural ability still find themselves at median. The only thing you can control is how hard you try. Where you end up is the product of too many factors.

As far as paying attention in class, if you don't think you're going to benefit from understanding how the professor sees the law, and how they believe it applies to cases, then all right. You go with that. You've got more experience in this setting than I do, so I won't try and argue, but I will say that would be pretty anomalous across any field that I've studied.

As far as four lectures goes, I know. It isn't a lot of class time, though its also too much for a 0L. If someone knows a polite way to turn down a classroom visit, I'd like to know. I have three more schools I'm going to check out.

Perhaps I was a bit harsh on you. All I'm saying is not to assume anything. The key is to never underestimate your classmates or lull yourself into a false sense of security. I saw too many people fall victim to it first semester. I saw people who paid no attention in class somehow do well. I saw people who sounded like they barely did any reading when they participated in class discussion do excellent. Perhaps I'm telling you something outside of the scope of what you were saying earlier, but its an important lesson regardless and its one that too many 0L's fail to realize going in.

Heartford wrote:

Fark-o-vision wrote: I would argue that there is a difference between trying and desiring and further difference between trying the right way (which only students who have done well and graduated can be sure of, and then only in so far as it applies to them) and simply trying.

Ok, but you went to 4 classes and thought that you witnessed students who weren't "trying the right way," even though you didn't really know what you were looking at.

Are you suggesting that paying attention hurts your chances of doing well?