Highlights from today's "Don't drop out" seminar Forum

[Wholigan]

So I attended a mandatory presentation for 1Ls today geared toward highlighting the excellent career prospects out there for below median students. It included as panelists attorneys who did not graduate at the top of their classes. My favorite snippets:

Panelist (paraphrase): "I have friends from law school who have been out of school three years now and still haven't found work. Even though they have lots of debt, they aren't sorry they went to law school. Because they love the law!"

Panelist (exact quote): "You know I always say 'A' students become professors. 'B' students become judges. And 'C' students make all the money."

Professor: (paraphrase): "Even if you are doing doc review on a contract basis with no benefits when you first graduate, (yes, he did actually say that!) if you aren't doing something you love in ten years, the problem is you, not the system."

Can someone please confirm the accuracy? My law school wouldn't mislead me, would they?

[uzpakalis]

What school?

[rman1201]

Does your law school start with a C?

[Wholigan]

Does your law school start with a C?

It has a 'C' in it. Would you like to buy a vowel?

[maf70]

I'd like to buy an "A"

[rman1201]

I'd like to try and solve the puzzle - Rutgers-Camden?

[Wholigan]

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[keg411]

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[Wholigan]

Maybe the theme wasn't so much insidious as a reflection on who they are able to get on the panel for part 'B'. It came across as kind of depressing.

[keg411]

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[Wholigan]

Maybe the theme wasn't so much insidious as a reflection on who they are able to get on the panel for part 'B'. It came across as kind of depressing.

Honestly, I would have preferred "realistic depression" to "anger at misleading 95% of the people in the room".

I think realistic would have been to advise anyone in the bottom third to think about cutting their losses. I think it gave people false hope. The one guy made it seem like it's a piece of cake to just start your own shingle and go your merry way if you don't get any job offers.

[keg411]

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[random5483]

Panelist (exact quote): "You know I always say 'A' students become professors. 'B' students become judges. And 'C' students make all the money."

Wow. Any law student who believes that has not done their due dilligence before signing up for a career in law.

[missinglink]

Panelist (exact quote): "You know I always say 'A' students become professors. 'B' students become judges. And 'C' students make all the money."

Wow. Any law student who believes that has not done their due dilligence before signing up for a career in law.

Unfortunately, I think that is an all-too-common occurrence.

[Omerta]

Panelist (exact quote): "You know I always say 'A' students become professors. 'B' students become judges. And 'C' students make all the money."

Wow. Any law student who believes that has not done their due dilligence before signing up for a career in law.

This quote and the "first year they X you to death, second year they Y you to death, and third year they bore you to death or whatever" is an instant credibility killer.

[Aqualibrium]

Panelist (exact quote): "You know I always say 'A' students become professors. 'B' students become judges. And 'C' students make all the money."

Wow. Any law student who believes that has not done their due dilligence before signing up for a career in law.

This quote and the "first year they scare you to death, second year they work you to death, and third year they bore you to death or whatever" is an instant credibility killer.

I agree that it's a credibility killer. Everyone who is anyone knows that the correct quote is "First year they scare you into apathy, second year they work you into apathy, third year they bore you into apathy."

[uzpakalis]

It's hard to believe a school would be so bold. It's pretty much accepted that schools lie about employment statistics to keep you enrolled. Now it seems that they are telling you straight to your face, if you're below median, you're F'd....but please keep giving us tuition money so we can line our own pockets.

[rman1201]

It's hard to believe a school would be so bold. It's pretty much accepted that schools lie about employment statistics to keep you enrolled. Now it seems that they are telling you straight to your face, if you're below median, you're F'd....but please keep giving us tuition money so we can line our own pockets.

Are you suggesting students below median at a T2 don't make big $$$ or find non-biglaw jobs they're passionate about?

[HarlandBassett]

It's hard to believe a school would be so bold. It's pretty much accepted that schools lie about employment statistics to keep you enrolled. Now it seems that they are telling you straight to your face, if you're below median, you're F'd....but please keep giving us tuition money so we can line our own pockets.

lol, it'd be hilarious if it were Villanova that held that panel

[uzpakalis]

I guess it depends on how you define big $$$. Certainly the odds of making any kind of big $$$ being below median at a T2 are quite low unless you have hooks. Also, I wonder what % of graduates still 'love' the law or have a passion for it even though they have yet to receive a job offer after three years. It's got to be hard to pay student loans when you're on unemployment.

[keg411]

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[Wholigan]

It's hard to believe a school would be so bold. It's pretty much accepted that schools lie about employment statistics to keep you enrolled. Now it seems that they are telling you straight to your face, if you're below median, you're F'd....but please keep giving us tuition money so we can line our own pockets.

I don't know if it's quite that sinister because the school is a state school and isn't really a cash-cow private that charges 40-50k in tuition. I do think they are doing a disservice to people who didn't do well, whether they are aware of it or not. Do I think they needed to say "drop out, you're fucked"? No. Do I think they should have approached the topic in a better way than I saw it? Yes.

Yeah.. everyone I talked to today mainly thought it was depressing/terrible. It still seemed to me like a message was being fed. Even state schools have budgets where people's necks are on the line if they aren't met. The law school can still be profitable and even if they aren't using it to turn an overall "profit" it might balance out big budgetary defecits in other parts of the university. Not just undergrad colleges either. Per the NCAA, the median FBS school's athletic program takes a net loss of $10.1 Million/year. They are looking to make that up somewhere. Maybe I'm just cynical, but every person below median is paying sticker - if they were on scholarship, they won't be next year - and the marginal cost of schooling them is practically zero. So, even at an admittedly reasonable sticker, there is incentive. I suppose one answer is if more drop out that leaves more spots that can be filled with TTTTT transfers paying sticker, but I have to think transfer turnover looks bad past a certain point.

[keg411]

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[random5483]

It's hard to believe a school would be so bold. It's pretty much accepted that schools lie about employment statistics to keep you enrolled. Now it seems that they are telling you straight to your face, if you're below median, you're F'd....but please keep giving us tuition money so we can line our own pockets.

Are you suggesting students below median at a T2 don't make big $$$ or find non-biglaw jobs they're passionate about?

People below median at a T2 often get jobs. The problem is they generally (not always) get lower paying jobs or spend a lot of time jobless while they look for a dead end job.

Big law is not possible with below median grades other than maybe the T6 schools, and even there, if you are significantly below median you have close to no shot at big law. Most prestigious government jobs require good schools and good grades (or bad school with awesome grades / great school with decent gradeS). Most Public Interest (PI) jobs focus more on your PI background, so you might have a shot at PI positions from a T2 below median if you have good PI experience. But PI jobs pay very little and the competition for decent PI jobs is fierce, their criteria just focuses on your PI background instead of grades / school prestige.

A below median T2 grad is not out of opportunities, but realistically, a below median T2 grad should reasonably expect having trouble finding a job (will eventually find one....probably), getting a low paid job, and getting a non-prestigious (and worse yet probably dead end) job. Basically, unless you have and get to keep a significant scholarship AND absolutely are certain you want to be a lawyer, you should consider dropping out in a below median T2 situation.

[Borhas]

"You know I always say 'A' students become professors. 'B' students become judges. And 'C' students make all the money."

probably true at Harvard back when they still had grades