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0L's out there don't waste your time with all the crazy advice people on this site suggest to succeed in law school

I'm right now top 10% at CLS after the first semester.

To determine what strategy would be best I tried to experiment in my classes this first semester. So for one of my classes I took the classic TLS advice. I read commercial outlines, hornbooks, E&E's, etc. Ended up with a B+ in that class. Not bad but I truly felt I wasted alot of time in those extra material than just focusing on the casebook and the professor. Ended up with a decent 20 page outline at the end of the semester.

In my other two classes, I didn't do any of the crazy stuff people here go on about. No commercial outlines, no hornbooks, no E&E's, nothing. Simply put I was all casebook and class notes. I didn't even make outlines for them. Got A's in both classes.

So 0L's DONT WASTE YOUR TIME!!!

These people here wanna lead you on the wrong path. Listen to every word your professor says and try to comprehend it in class instead of turning into a scribe copying everything they say. Outlines aren't even necessary cause you'll have no time to use it.

Wow. One grade on one side and two grades on the other. That's an awesome statistical sample you have there.

Also, it's ironic that you're posting advice to 0Ls in the forum for law students. 0Ls don't belong in here.

My grades are negatively correlated with the amount of the assigned reading I do for each class.

Also I think there is an ART to law school exam answers. And I think once that clicks for you there is no reason to look outside the class materials.

All that saved time this semester will help my sleep.

vanwinkle wrote:Wow. One grade on one side and two grades on the other. That's an awesome statistical sample you have there.

Also, it's ironic that you're posting advice to 0Ls in the forum for law students. 0Ls don't belong in here.

well I checked this place out when I was a 0L so I'm guessing others will too

I think he meant "Forum for Law School Students," not TLS in general.

I got A's in classes where I mostly skimmed the reading, and B's in classes where I read every word of every case. Everyone's mind works differently and every class works differently.

You will probably realize these things before you graduate.

Relied heavily on supplements for all my classes. Did pretty much the same all around.

What OP should have said instead is that if you can get everything you need from the casebook and class notes, there really is no need to waste your time with supplements. While this may seem obvious at first glance, there is a 0L type of panic that makes 0L's think that they must read E&E's even if they feel like they are understanding the material.

showNprove wrote:My grades are negatively correlated with the amount of the assigned reading I do for each class.

Amen. My secret to success is don't do any assigned reading, take good class notes, and read a hornbook before finals.

A'nold wrote:What OP should have said instead is that if you can get everything you need from the casebook and class notes, there really is no need to waste your time with supplements. While this may seem obvious at first glance, there is a 0L type of panic that makes 0L's think that they must read E&E's even if they feel like they are understanding the material.

Seconded, I got very good grades and very rarely went to the supplements. The key is not go to them simply because people tell you that you have to. If they help you, great. If not, great. In my opinion, supplements work better to supplement...crazy novel idea I know. I work things out in my head rather than having it spoon fed to me, but if I'm really getting lost on a point and need some clarification I might flip to the E&E or the Hornbook here and there. One of my E&Es I literally opened for the first time the day before the exam just to test my judgment on some things. Really the key is just do what works for you and ignore everybody else.

I certainly didn't wind up where I did because I'm any smarter than my classmates, and it would be patently absurd to say that I worked harder...I think that success in law school has so much more to do with not letting the pressure get to you than anything else. Law school simply isn't this special place where you have to have the super-secret magic formula to success.

OP is a little insane, but I agree. Read every day and listen in class and review your notes.

ShakeDemHatersOff wrote:0L's out there don't waste your time with all the crazy advice people on this site suggest to succeed in law school

I'm right now top 10% at CLS after the first semester.

To determine what strategy would be best I tried to experiment in my classes this first semester. So for one of my classes I took the classic TLS advice. I read commercial outlines, hornbooks, E&E's, etc. Ended up with a B+ in that class. Not bad but I truly felt I wasted alot of time in those extra material than just focusing on the casebook and the professor. Ended up with a decent 20 page outline at the end of the semester.

In my other two classes, I didn't do any of the crazy stuff people here go on about. No commercial outlines, no hornbooks, no E&E's, nothing. Simply put I was all casebook and class notes. I didn't even make outlines for them. Got A's in both classes.

So 0L's DONT WASTE YOUR TIME!!!

These people here wanna lead you on the wrong path. Listen to every word your professor says and try to comprehend it in class instead of turning into a scribe copying everything they say. Outlines aren't even necessary cause you'll have no time to use it.

+1000000 While I'm sure not one strategy works for everyone, I had a similar experience. The two classes I focused on the texts I got As in, but in the class I paid a lot of attention to supplemental materials I didn't do so well in. There were other factors involved for sure, but I think that approach definitely didn't help. There's a reason professors teach the material they do: the good ones at least will be testing on it, rather than on the subject matter in a more general sense.

Also, the irony of the article on here that was written by the NYU guy (and sanctioned as an official TLS article) on how to do well in law school is that while the guy said he was top 10%, he acknowledged that a peer of his who went over only the class materials in depth was top 5%. He said she studied a lot harder, but based on the fact that he said he read each hornbook and E and E twice during the semester I'm thinking he underplayed how much he actually studied in any case.

This is obviously anecdotal, but then so is just about everything posted on here IMO. I'm sure supplements can be helpful, but I really think there is a lot of wisdom to focusing by far the most time on the actual class materials. With in depth study of the assigned materials I'm not really sure how people have much time to focus on anything else in any case.

Lawquacious wrote:

ShakeDemHatersOff wrote:0L's out there don't waste your time with all the crazy advice people on this site suggest to succeed in law school

I'm right now top 10% at CLS after the first semester.

To determine what strategy would be best I tried to experiment in my classes this first semester. So for one of my classes I took the classic TLS advice. I read commercial outlines, hornbooks, E&E's, etc. Ended up with a B+ in that class. Not bad but I truly felt I wasted alot of time in those extra material than just focusing on the casebook and the professor. Ended up with a decent 20 page outline at the end of the semester.

In my other two classes, I didn't do any of the crazy stuff people here go on about. No commercial outlines, no hornbooks, no E&E's, nothing. Simply put I was all casebook and class notes. I didn't even make outlines for them. Got A's in both classes.

So 0L's DONT WASTE YOUR TIME!!!

These people here wanna lead you on the wrong path. Listen to every word your professor says and try to comprehend it in class instead of turning into a scribe copying everything they say. Outlines aren't even necessary cause you'll have no time to use it.

+1000000 While I'm sure not one strategy works for everyone, I had a similar experience. The two classes I focused on the texts I got As in, but in the class I paid a lot of attention to supplemental materials I didn't do so well in. There were other factors involved for sure, but I think that approach definitely didn't help. There's a reason professors teach the material they do: the good ones at least will be testing on it, rather than on the subject matter in a more general sense.

Also, the irony of the article on here that was written by the NYU guy (and sanctioned as an official TLS article) on how to do well in law school is that while the guy said he was top 10%, he acknowledged that a peer of his who went over only the class materials in depth was top 5%. He said she studied a lot harder, but based on the fact that he said he read each hornbook and E and E twice during the semester I'm thinking he underplayed how much he actually studied in any case.

This is obviously anecdotal, but then so is just about everything posted on here IMO. I'm sure supplements can be helpful, but I really think there is a lot of wisdom to focusing by far the most time on the actual class materials. With in depth study of the assigned materials I'm not really sure how people have much time to focus on anything else in any case.

I really think this depends on your reading abilities (if the assigned readings are dense/not well edited) as well as your ability to synthesize the material into a framework that makes sense to your professor (as opposed to digging yourself deeper and deeper into an endless cesspool of questions through pondering aimlessly about the notes after each case without any coherent approach). It also depends on having a competent instructor who goes over the stuff they will actually test (this is true in the majority of cases, but sometimes does not hold).

In general though, I think if people use supplements, it probably should be used as a supplement, as you both have suggested.

I did the worst in the class (torts) in which I paid rapt attention for literally the entire course; got an A in Ks while never paying attention and sounding like a total shithead when called upon.

More importantly: I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE FUCK THOSE PPL WHO STAY AT THE LIBRARY FOR 8-10 HOURS/DAY ARE DOING.

ShakeDemHatersOff wrote:0L's out there don't waste your time with all the crazy advice people on this site suggest to succeed in law school

I'm right now top 10% at CLS after the first semester.

To determine what strategy would be best I tried to experiment in my classes this first semester. So for one of my classes I took the classic TLS advice. I read commercial outlines, hornbooks, E&E's, etc. Ended up with a B+ in that class. Not bad but I truly felt I wasted alot of time in those extra material than just focusing on the casebook and the professor. Ended up with a decent 20 page outline at the end of the semester.

In my other two classes, I didn't do any of the crazy stuff people here go on about. No commercial outlines, no hornbooks, no E&E's, nothing. Simply put I was all casebook and class notes. I didn't even make outlines for them. Got A's in both classes.

So 0L's DONT WASTE YOUR TIME!!!

These people here wanna lead you on the wrong path. Listen to every word your professor says and try to comprehend it in class instead of turning into a scribe copying everything they say. Outlines aren't even necessary cause you'll have no time to use it.

I've been advocating this exact study strategy myself (much to the criticism of others). I'm curious as to which your two A classes were though. When I got my A in K's I felt like my methodology had been redeemed, casebook + notes = A, what else do I need?

Then I got back CivPro and *ugh* Torts. My GPA is still above the Stone threshold, but now my beliefs have been shaken, you say you didn't even outline... how did you review for the exams?

flcath wrote:I did the worst in the class (torts) in which I paid rapt attention for literally the entire course; got an A in Ks while never paying attention and sounding like a total shithead when called upon.

More importantly: I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE FUCK THOSE PPL WHO STAY AT THE LIBRARY FOR 8-10 HOURS/DAY ARE DOING.

Getting good grades in torts? (Hahaha sorry too easy...too easy.)

.

subscribed.

Sogui wrote:

ShakeDemHatersOff wrote:0L's out there don't waste your time with all the crazy advice people on this site suggest to succeed in law school

I'm right now top 10% at CLS after the first semester.

To determine what strategy would be best I tried to experiment in my classes this first semester. So for one of my classes I took the classic TLS advice. I read commercial outlines, hornbooks, E&E's, etc. Ended up with a B+ in that class. Not bad but I truly felt I wasted alot of time in those extra material than just focusing on the casebook and the professor. Ended up with a decent 20 page outline at the end of the semester.

In my other two classes, I didn't do any of the crazy stuff people here go on about. No commercial outlines, no hornbooks, no E&E's, nothing. Simply put I was all casebook and class notes. I didn't even make outlines for them. Got A's in both classes.

So 0L's DONT WASTE YOUR TIME!!!

These people here wanna lead you on the wrong path. Listen to every word your professor says and try to comprehend it in class instead of turning into a scribe copying everything they say. Outlines aren't even necessary cause you'll have no time to use it.

I've been advocating this exact study strategy myself (much to the criticism of others). I'm curious as to which your two A classes were though. When I got my A in K's I felt like my methodology had been redeemed, casebook + notes = A, what else do I need?

Then I got back CivPro and *ugh* Torts. My GPA is still above the Stone threshold, but now my beliefs have been shaken, you say you didn't even outline... how did you review for the exams?

took practice tests and gave myself like a general 2-4 page checklist of the structure I would answer the essay questions with

I procrastinated alot in the semester so I just didn't have time to do a outline....I just reviewed my notes and looked at the g-drive outlines.

pretty much all the classes can be structured in a simple checklist sort of way...so I would just apply the facts of each case to the my general rubric of analysis

90% of the battle on these exams is getting all the detail in the fact patters...from those details the law should trigger in your mind....once you get the rule look for some other facts that help the other side....argue both......then move on to the next fact which triggers a rule

in the end I think seeing how all the doctrines you learn in a particular class fit together into a neat checklist is the way to go

if you can reduce the entire class to a page and let your mind trigger the rest of the info.....then you've got it in the bad

Kilpatrick wrote:Seems like you misread the conventional wisdom. You should've taken away that different things work for different people. I used supplements and I'm in the top 5% so you really didn't debunk anything

what school do you go to?

I think in lower ranked schools where most people don't even get the simple black letter law by the end of the semester, then supplements can prove beneficial.

However at places like CLS and other elite schools, it makes less of a difference cause everyone will know the law by exam time.

To distinguish yourself takes having an in-depth comprehension of the course and the professors particular method of analysis. Those two things can't be found in supplements. It pretty much takes just close listening and reading of the class materials.

ShakeDemHatersOff wrote:

Kilpatrick wrote:Seems like you misread the conventional wisdom. You should've taken away that different things work for different people. I used supplements and I'm in the top 5% so you really didn't debunk anything

what school do you go to?

I think in lower ranked schools where most people don't even get the simple black letter law by the end of the semester, then supplements can prove beneficial.

However at places like CLS and other elite schools, it makes less of a difference cause everyone will know the law by exam time.

To distinguish yourself takes having an in-depth comprehension of the course and the professors particular method of analysis. Those two things can't be found in supplements. It pretty much takes just close listening and reading of the class materials.

flcath wrote:I did the worst in the class (torts) in which I paid rapt attention for literally the entire course; got an A in Ks while never paying attention and sounding like a total shithead when called upon.

More importantly: I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE FUCK THOSE PPL WHO STAY AT THE LIBRARY FOR 8-10 HOURS/DAY ARE DOING.

Dooder I completely failed to address Lost-Chance causation on that exam and somehow ended up above-median for that course. I am at a loss.

By the way, they're on FB.


Edit -

Did all the casebook reading (Didn't scrutinize them to death), then would go home and do E&Es work to get a firm handle on what I'd be looking at. Last 3 weeks, 3 practice exams a day. It was not that much work.

The only thing I regret after first semester is not following TLS advice MORE. EVERYTHING that I read on TLS has helped me get to where I am and the few things I disagreed with and decided to do my own way came back to bite me. FWIW.

ShakeDemHatersOff wrote:0L's out there don't waste your time with all the crazy advice people on this site suggest to succeed in law school

I'm right now top 10% at CLS after the first semester.

To determine what strategy would be best I tried to experiment in my classes this first semester. So for one of my classes I took the classic TLS advice. I read commercial outlines, hornbooks, E&E's, etc. Ended up with a B+ in that class. Not bad but I truly felt I wasted alot of time in those extra material than just focusing on the casebook and the professor. Ended up with a decent 20 page outline at the end of the semester.

In my other two classes, I didn't do any of the crazy stuff people here go on about. No commercial outlines, no hornbooks, no E&E's, nothing. Simply put I was all casebook and class notes. I didn't even make outlines for them. Got A's in both classes.

So 0L's DONT WASTE YOUR TIME!!!

These people here wanna lead you on the wrong path. Listen to every word your professor says and try to comprehend it in class instead of turning into a scribe copying everything they say. Outlines aren't even necessary cause you'll have no time to use it.

Wait, am I supposed to take this advice, it's on TLS, oh no wormhole!!!!!! Halp!