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In years past, students could rely on their 1L grades to get them a summer associate position, which typically led to a job offer. Given that law firms are substantially decreasing their summer programs due to the economy, there will understandably be fewer job offers given to students after their 2L summer. Given that these 3L students will not have jobs lined up, it seems that 2L (and 3L) grades have more importance. Could the current collapse of the biglaw paradigm result in 2L and 3L grades becoming more relevant for post graduation employment?

gntsf12 wrote:In years past, students could rely on their 1L grades to get them a summer associate position, which typically led to a job offer. Given that law firms are substantially decreasing their summer programs due to the economy, there will understandably be fewer job offers given to students after their 2L summer. Given that these 3L students will not have jobs lined up, it seems that 2L (and 3L) grades have more importance. Could the current collapse of the biglaw paradigm result in 2L and 3L grades becoming more relevant for post graduation employment?

maybe

Second year grades have always been important for those who can't get jobs through OCI and keep having to look during their third year. There are just more of those people now than there used to be. Will this continue as a trend? Possibly. However, people often get similar grades their second/third years as their first year, from what I've read and gathered talking to upperclassmen, so I doubt this is a real issue either way.

gntsf12 wrote:In years past, students could rely on their 1L grades to get them a summer associate position, which typically led to a job offer. Given that law firms are substantially decreasing their summer programs due to the economy, there will understandably be fewer job offers given to students after their 2L summer. Given that these 3L students will not have jobs lined up, it seems that 2L (and 3L) grades have more importance. Could the current collapse of the biglaw paradigm result in 2L and 3L grades becoming more relevant for post graduation employment?

that'll happen right about when people on TLS stop being sarcastic pricks.

betasteve wrote:

vanwinkle wrote:Second year grades have always been important for those who can't get jobs through OCI and keep having to look during their third year. There are just more of those people now than there used to be. Will this continue as a trend? Possibly. However, people often get similar grades their second/third years as their first year, from what I've read and gathered talking to upperclassmen, so I doubt this is a real issue either way.

I think I agree with this, with the additional statement that 3L OCI is dead. Oddly, if someone strikes out at 2L OCI, perhaps the best shot really is gunning like crazy on grades and try to get a clerkship after graduation. Who knows ITE, though.

*knocks on wood and sacrifices a few small animals to the OCI gods*

Or, perhaps, some people could actually learn how to become... lawyers? I've spent much of the past week in the town clerks office, and at least a dozen lawyers have come through, looking up deeds or judgments -- and I have to say, they look (outwardly at least) like they're doing fine... and in Ithaca! I have a number of friends back home (in Maine) who didn't even go to a T14 (or T1/T2) and are doing just fine (80K-120K, which goes a long way in rural Maine.) I want to "niche", but figure I can probably do okay if need be by supplementing with property, trusts, wills, contracts, etc. Can people really not make a decent living just plain lawyering? (excuse the phrase -- my school has deemed it a verb.)

mbw wrote:

betasteve wrote:

vanwinkle wrote:Second year grades have always been important for those who can't get jobs through OCI and keep having to look during their third year. There are just more of those people now than there used to be. Will this continue as a trend? Possibly. However, people often get similar grades their second/third years as their first year, from what I've read and gathered talking to upperclassmen, so I doubt this is a real issue either way.

I think I agree with this, with the additional statement that 3L OCI is dead. Oddly, if someone strikes out at 2L OCI, perhaps the best shot really is gunning like crazy on grades and try to get a clerkship after graduation. Who knows ITE, though.

*knocks on wood and sacrifices a few small animals to the OCI gods*

Or, perhaps, some people could actually learn how to become... lawyers? I've spent much of the past week in the town clerks office, and at least a dozen lawyers have come through, looking up deeds or judgments -- and I have to say, they look (outwardly at least) like they're doing fine... and in Ithaca! I have a number of friends back home (in Maine) who didn't even go to a T14 (or T1/T2) and are doing just fine (80K-120K, which goes a long way in rural Maine.) I want to "niche", but figure I can probably do okay if need be by supplementing with property, trusts, wills, contracts, etc. Can people really not make a decent living just plain lawyering? (excuse the phrase -- my school has deemed it a verb.)

What?

Let me try to paraphrase your post, at least as I understand it:

You can learn how to be a lawyer in law school. I have seen lawyers, they are alive. I know some lawyers. Lawyers from many different kinds of law school. I don't know what the word Niche means, but I wish I did. I will now list a random assortment of law school classes. Can a lawyer make money by being a lawyer instead of being a lawyer. My law school makes verbs out of many things that would otherwise not be verbs.

mbw wrote:

betasteve wrote:

vanwinkle wrote:Second year grades have always been important for those who can't get jobs through OCI and keep having to look during their third year. There are just more of those people now than there used to be. Will this continue as a trend? Possibly. However, people often get similar grades their second/third years as their first year, from what I've read and gathered talking to upperclassmen, so I doubt this is a real issue either way.

I think I agree with this, with the additional statement that 3L OCI is dead. Oddly, if someone strikes out at 2L OCI, perhaps the best shot really is gunning like crazy on grades and try to get a clerkship after graduation. Who knows ITE, though.

*knocks on wood and sacrifices a few small animals to the OCI gods*

Or, perhaps, some people could actually learn how to become... lawyers? I've spent much of the past week in the town clerks office, and at least a dozen lawyers have come through, looking up deeds or judgments -- and I have to say, they look (outwardly at least) like they're doing fine... and in Ithaca! I have a number of friends back home (in Maine) who didn't even go to a T14 (or T1/T2) and are doing just fine (80K-120K, which goes a long way in rural Maine.) I want to "niche", but figure I can probably do okay if need be by supplementing with property, trusts, wills, contracts, etc. Can people really not make a decent living just plain lawyering? (excuse the phrase -- my school has deemed it a verb.)

sorry MBW, but you mentioned people working in, ahem, Ithaca, and, ahem, RURAL MAINE. some people want to live in places like this and do smaller town law, other people really want to live near a metropolis and work on complex matters. the latter might not be plain but it is certainly still lawyering.

This original thread post asks a question I was wondering about as well... it makes sense since it is now impossible for most law students to get a paid SA position after the 1L year that 2L grades will be a big factor in the hiring that takes place for SA positions awarded after the 2L year...

disco_barred wrote:

mbw wrote:

betasteve wrote:

vanwinkle wrote:Second year grades have always been important for those who can't get jobs through OCI and keep having to look during their third year. There are just more of those people now than there used to be. Will this continue as a trend? Possibly. However, people often get similar grades their second/third years as their first year, from what I've read and gathered talking to upperclassmen, so I doubt this is a real issue either way.

I think I agree with this, with the additional statement that 3L OCI is dead. Oddly, if someone strikes out at 2L OCI, perhaps the best shot really is gunning like crazy on grades and try to get a clerkship after graduation. Who knows ITE, though.

*knocks on wood and sacrifices a few small animals to the OCI gods*

Or, perhaps, some people could actually learn how to become... lawyers? I've spent much of the past week in the town clerks office, and at least a dozen lawyers have come through, looking up deeds or judgments -- and I have to say, they look (outwardly at least) like they're doing fine... and in Ithaca! I have a number of friends back home (in Maine) who didn't even go to a T14 (or T1/T2) and are doing just fine (80K-120K, which goes a long way in rural Maine.) I want to "niche", but figure I can probably do okay if need be by supplementing with property, trusts, wills, contracts, etc. Can people really not make a decent living just plain lawyering? (excuse the phrase -- my school has deemed it a verb.)

What?

Let me try to paraphrase your post, at least as I understand it:

You can learn how to be a lawyer in law school. I have seen lawyers, they are alive. I know some lawyers. Lawyers from many different kinds of law school. I don't know what the word Niche means, but I wish I did. I will now list a random assortment of law school classes. Can a lawyer make money by being a lawyer instead of being a lawyer. My law school makes verbs out of many things that would otherwise not be verbs.

niche
1 a : a recess in a wall especially for a statue b : something that resembles a niche
2 a : a place, employment, status, or activity for which a person or thing is best fitted <finally found her niche> b : a habitat supplying the factors necessary for the existence of an organism or species c : the ecological role of an organism in a community especially in regard to food consumption d : a specialized market

I'm an archaeologist (PhD), with a specialty in skeletal biology and NAGPRA work. Plus, I'm an Indian, who has worked as a tribal archaeologist. Very "niche". Really, you probably can't get much more specialized. They don't have people like me at your school?

And I didn't ask my school to make nouns into verbs - hence my joking about it. But this is TLS, where any attempt at humor is reserved for the chosen few...

Lawquacious wrote:This original thread post asks a question I was wondering about as well... it makes sense since it is now impossible for most law students to get a paid SA position after the 1L year that 2L grades will be a big factor in the hiring that takes place for SA positions awarded after the 2L year...

there won't be any SA positions awarded after the 2L year. Prepare your bodies for the Thunderdome. It is the new law.

Nice Where can I order the right body armor?

let/them/eat/cake wrote:
sorry MBW, but you mentioned people working in, ahem, Ithaca, and, ahem, RURAL MAINE. some people want to live in places like this and do smaller town law, other people really want to live near a metropolis and work on complex matters. the latter might not be plain but it is certainly still lawyering.

I do respect your opinion, l/t/e/c, but really, you have to work in a metropolis to work on "complex matters"?

My view of BigLaw (and hence why I won't do OCI)... you get stuck in a cubby for three years doing glorified document review. Sure, you get paid 160K for it -- but don't try to make it anything that it's not. It's generally grunt work, and "associates" are no better qualified to be considered competent attorneys as someone working in Podunk or Portland in a small firm or, egads, as a solo, for the same three years...

mbw wrote:

let/them/eat/cake wrote:
sorry MBW, but you mentioned people working in, ahem, Ithaca, and, ahem, RURAL MAINE. some people want to live in places like this and do smaller town law, other people really want to live near a metropolis and work on complex matters. the latter might not be plain but it is certainly still lawyering.

I do respect your opinion, l/t/e/c, but really, you have to work in a metropolis to work on "complex matters"?

My view of BigLaw (and hence why I won't do OCI)... you get stuck in a cubby for three years doing glorified document review. Sure, you get paid 160K for it -- but don't try to make it anything that it's not. It's generally grunt work, and "associates" are no better qualified to be considered competent attorneys as someone working in Podunk or Portland in a small firm or, egads, as a solo, for the same three years...

i reread my post and knew i was going to catch it for that lol yeah i'm not trying to set up a false dichotomy. it's not, biglaw-->complex, small town-->podunk run of the mill stuff. and while you are certainly right about the quality of work you get when you start out, biglaw, if you can withstand the initial drudgery and burnout of the long hours (which i believe i can, i've had a taste and didn't mind it), does present unique opportunities vis-a-vis the type of work one can be a part of.

but what it really boils down to is "different strokes, different folks"; i only posted bc i wanted to make the point that for some people who want biglaw, those folks obviously won't be satisfied by the type of work that is done in places like rural maine and Ithaca.

but, it's dinner time sorry about your pot btw!

Lawquacious wrote:This original thread post asks a question I was wondering about as well... it makes sense since it is now impossible for most law students to get a paid SA position after the 1L year that 2L grades will be a big factor in the hiring that takes place for SA positions awarded after the 2L year...

My head hurts. WTF does that mean?

mikeytwoshoes wrote:

Lawquacious wrote:This original thread post asks a question I was wondering about as well... it makes sense since it is now impossible for most law students to get a paid SA position after the 1L year that 2L grades will be a big factor in the hiring that takes place for SA positions awarded after the 2L year...

My head hurts. WTF does that mean?

Translation:

In better economy where paid internships frequently started after 1L year--> 1L grades were primary basis of hire.

In this economy where paid internships don't start until after 2L --> 1L + 2L grades will be primary basis of hire.

Lawquacious wrote:

mikeytwoshoes wrote:

Lawquacious wrote:This original thread post asks a question I was wondering about as well... it makes sense since it is now impossible for most law students to get a paid SA position after the 1L year that 2L grades will be a big factor in the hiring that takes place for SA positions awarded after the 2L year...

My head hurts. WTF does that mean?

Translation:

In better economy where paid internships frequently started after 1L year--> 1L grades were primary basis of hire.

In this economy where paid internships don't start until after 2L --> 1L + 2L grades will be primary basis of hire.

jesus christ kid. what? lol

job 1L summer-->based on 1 semester of grades. job 2L summer (hopefully SA)-->based on 1 year of grades.

NO SA JOBS after 2L summer. THAT SHIT IS DUNZO B. refer back to my Thunderdome quote from earlier.

I don't have overwhelmingly high hopes for OCI, and thus am treating my 2L grades as if they're just as important as my 1L grades. Even if I do luck into a good job via OCI, I think that ITE it never hurts to keep yourself as competitive as possible.

Lawquacious wrote:

mikeytwoshoes wrote:

Lawquacious wrote:This original thread post asks a question I was wondering about as well... it makes sense since it is now impossible for most law students to get a paid SA position after the 1L year that 2L grades will be a big factor in the hiring that takes place for SA positions awarded after the 2L year...

My head hurts. WTF does that mean?

Translation:

In better economy where paid internships frequently started after 1L year--> 1L grades were primary basis of hire.

In this economy where paid internships don't start until after 2L --> 1L + 2L grades will be primary basis of hire.

Wow, this is one of the all-time dumbest, worst informed 0L posts I've ever seen.

SoftBoiledLife wrote:I don't have overwhelmingly high hopes for OCI, and thus am treating my 2L grades as if they're just as important as my 1L grades. Even if I do luck into a good job via OCI, I think that ITE it never hurts to keep yourself as competitive as possible.

Sure, when you put it that way, it's not like there's any good reason not to try to get good grades as a 2L and 3L, even if you DO have high hopes for OCI. To quote a recent Andy Schleck tweet, "Shit happens." Might as well be prepared for all possible eventualities.

mbw wrote:And I didn't ask my school to make nouns into verbs - hence my joking about it. But this is TLS, where any attempt at humor is reserved for the chosen few...

Could be worse - they could have made it into an adjective.

Gee, I'm feeling rather lawyerish today.