Top Law Schools

I know that it's just as rational to be really uber-gunner-motivated and make sure that you're number 1, so you're more likely to get a job. But does anyone else, who's not really in the running for top 10%, feel a sense of hopelessness, that whether you bust your ass or sit on your ass, you'll be unemployed, and thus find it difficult to resist the urge to sit on your ass?

lsat_fear wrote:I know that it's just as rational to be really uber-gunner-motivated and make sure that you're number 1, so you're more likely to get a job. But does anyone else, who's not really in the running for top 10%, feel a sense of hopelessness, that whether you bust your ass or sit on your ass, you'll be unemployed, and thus find it difficult to resist the urge to sit on your ass?

ever been broke? makes for some serious motivation.

pleasetryagain wrote:

lsat_fear wrote:I know that it's just as rational to be really uber-gunner-motivated and make sure that you're number 1, so you're more likely to get a job. But does anyone else, who's not really in the running for top 10%, feel a sense of hopelessness, that whether you bust your ass or sit on your ass, you'll be unemployed, and thus find it difficult to resist the urge to sit on your ass?

ever been broke? makes for some serious motivation.

currently broke

pleasetryagain wrote:

lsat_fear wrote:I know that it's just as rational to be really uber-gunner-motivated and make sure that you're number 1, so you're more likely to get a job. But does anyone else, who's not really in the running for top 10%, feel a sense of hopelessness, that whether you bust your ass or sit on your ass, you'll be unemployed, and thus find it difficult to resist the urge to sit on your ass?

ever been broke? makes for some serious motivation.

i think op touched upon this sort of sentiment by saying its just as rational to see things the other way, as in this situation could make you much more motivated.

There's actually a lot more jobs than just for top 10%, even at a T2ish school like U Houston and SMU, they placed top quarter last year. Georgetown placed about 45% in fed clerkship + NLJ 250; UT Austin places about 50% in fed clerkship + NLJ250 firms; Northwestern and Columbia place about 65%. Before the crash, Columbia/NW places some 80% in these jobs (i.e. practically Harvard-like placement) and it's been scaled back a lot, but still isn't so terrible.

Looking at the career placement stats, there is really no employment bump for T14 vs non-T14 law schools anymore. T14 places more, but their placement stats were massively axed last year.

sources - NLJ & USNews' semi-reliable clerkship ranking

Snooker wrote:There's actually a lot more jobs than just for top 10%, even at a T2ish school like U Houston and SMU, they placed top quarter last year. Georgetown placed about 45% in fed clerkship + NLJ 250; UT Austin places about 50% in fed clerkship + NLJ250 firms; Northwestern and Columbia place about 65%. Before the crash, Columbia/NW places some 80% in these jobs (i.e. practically Harvard-like placement) and it's been scaled back a lot, but still isn't so terrible.

Looking at the career placement stats, there is really no employment bump for T14 vs non-T14 law schools anymore. T14 places more, but their placement stats were massively axed last year.

sources - NLJ & USNews' semi-reliable clerkship ranking

Yes. Let's look at the Class of 2009 placement data. That will accurately describe the current state of the market.

-10 points for abuse of authority, Snooker.

Which class do people think is or will be the worst for placement?

Dude who cares? Seriously, have some fun this summer!

lsat_fear wrote:I know that it's just as rational to be really uber-gunner-motivated and make sure that you're number 1, so you're more likely to get a job. But does anyone else, who's not really in the running for top 10%, feel a sense of hopelessness, that whether you bust your ass or sit on your ass, you'll be unemployed, and thus find it difficult to resist the urge to sit on your ass?

I feel hopeless, and I blew off studying last night and watched a movie to detach a bit from the law school pandemonium. I definitely feel ya. This summer might be the first time in 10 years that I am not working or going to school full time.

There's actually a lot more jobs than just for top 10%, even at a T2ish school like U Houston and SMU, they placed top quarter last year. Georgetown placed about 45% in fed clerkship + NLJ 250; UT Austin places about 50% in fed clerkship + NLJ250 firms; Northwestern and Columbia place about 65%. Before the crash, Columbia/NW places some 80% in these jobs (i.e. practically Harvard-like placement) and it's been scaled back a lot, but still isn't so terrible.

Those numbers are wrong.

Georgetown placed 48.4% in NLJ 250 + Clerkship
UT placed 47.5% in NLJ + Clerkship

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... =1&t=75513

I also think one would need to add federal government hiring to the mix if we are adding clerkship numbers, but those numbers are harder to come by.

disco_barred wrote:

Snooker wrote:There's actually a lot more jobs than just for top 10%, even at a T2ish school like U Houston and SMU, they placed top quarter last year. Georgetown placed about 45% in fed clerkship + NLJ 250; UT Austin places about 50% in fed clerkship + NLJ250 firms; Northwestern and Columbia place about 65%. Before the crash, Columbia/NW places some 80% in these jobs (i.e. practically Harvard-like placement) and it's been scaled back a lot, but still isn't so terrible.

Looking at the career placement stats, there is really no employment bump for T14 vs non-T14 law schools anymore. T14 places more, but their placement stats were massively axed last year.

sources - NLJ & USNews' semi-reliable clerkship ranking

Yes. Let's look at the Class of 2009 placement data. That will accurately describe the current state of the market.

-10 points for abuse of authority, Snooker.

+1

For the 1 millionth time on this site, the CO 2009 received their formal firm offers in the Summer & Fall of 2008 (August, September, maybe October). The worst of the recession was right around January of 2009, and THE ECONOMY DID NOT BOTTOM UNTIL 2Q09. The firms who hired students from the CO 2009 likely had no idea we would see this sort of economic contraction we did btw 3Q08 and 2Q09. The data your are citing are from an entirely different economy. They are of little use in accurately estimating job prospects for the classes of 2010-2012. Do not make important financial decisions while relying on data from a wholly different economy.

JazzOne wrote: I feel hopeless, and I blew off studying last night and watched a movie to detach a bit from the law school pandemonium. I definitely feel ya. This summer might be the first time in 10 years that I am not working or going to school full time.

why aren't you working this summer?

legends159 wrote:

JazzOne wrote: I feel hopeless, and I blew off studying last night and watched a movie to detach a bit from the law school pandemonium. I definitely feel ya. This summer might be the first time in 10 years that I am not working or going to school full time.

why aren't you working this summer?

I can't find a job.

JazzOne wrote:

legends159 wrote:

JazzOne wrote: I feel hopeless, and I blew off studying last night and watched a movie to detach a bit from the law school pandemonium. I definitely feel ya. This summer might be the first time in 10 years that I am not working or going to school full time.

why aren't you working this summer?

I can't find a job.

I don't know your definition of working or job so: not even unpaid internships? Legal aid? Nonprofits?

Yimbeezy wrote:

JazzOne wrote:

legends159 wrote:

JazzOne wrote: I feel hopeless, and I blew off studying last night and watched a movie to detach a bit from the law school pandemonium. I definitely feel ya. This summer might be the first time in 10 years that I am not working or going to school full time.

why aren't you working this summer?

I can't find a job.

I don't know your definition of working or job so: not even unpaid internships? Legal aid? Nonprofits?

These are surprisingly hard to get these days, now that everyone who would have been working as a summer associate has now applied to every unpaid internship imaginable.

Yimbeezy wrote:

JazzOne wrote:

legends159 wrote:

JazzOne wrote: I feel hopeless, and I blew off studying last night and watched a movie to detach a bit from the law school pandemonium. I definitely feel ya. This summer might be the first time in 10 years that I am not working or going to school full time.

why aren't you working this summer?

I can't find a job.

I don't know your definition of working or job so: not even unpaid internships? Legal aid? Nonprofits?

I have a family. I need a paying job, and I will get one; it just might not be in the legal field.

JazzOne wrote:I have a family. I need a paying job, and I will get one; it just might not be in the legal field.

If you ever want a legal job that will help you provide for your family, not getting one - even as an RA - is an unfathomably poor life choice for your 1L summer.

disco_barred wrote:

JazzOne wrote:I have a family. I need a paying job, and I will get one; it just might not be in the legal field.

If you ever want a legal job that will help you provide for your family, not getting one - even as an RA - is an unfathomably poor life choice for your 1L summer.

Tell that to my family. What would suggest I do if I am not offered a paid legal job? Not pay my rent so I can volunteer for legal aid? I'd rather go back to teaching. I'm not incurring any debt for LS anyway.

JazzOne wrote:

disco_barred wrote:

JazzOne wrote:I have a family. I need a paying job, and I will get one; it just might not be in the legal field.

If you ever want a legal job that will help you provide for your family, not getting one - even as an RA - is an unfathomably poor life choice for your 1L summer.

Tell that to my family. What would suggest I do if I am not offered a paid legal job? Not pay my rent so I can volunteer for legal aid? I'd rather go back to teaching. I'm not incurring any debt for LS anyway.

reality bites.

Jazz, Does your school have some sort of grant program that can fund public interest internships? That's how I'm getting through the summer.

JazzOne wrote:

disco_barred wrote:

JazzOne wrote:I have a family. I need a paying job, and I will get one; it just might not be in the legal field.

If you ever want a legal job that will help you provide for your family, not getting one - even as an RA - is an unfathomably poor life choice for your 1L summer.

Tell that to my family. What would suggest I do if I am not offered a paid legal job? Not pay my rent so I can volunteer for legal aid? I'd rather go back to teaching. I'm not incurring any debt for LS anyway.

I mean, if your goal is something other than using 2L fall recruiting to land a firm or government gig, more power to you. Enjoy your summer.

But if you do want a firm job 2l summer and/or beyond, the lack of legal work your 1L summer is a kiss of death. You might be going to law school for free but the opportunity cost is still enormous. Taking on the debt to survive the summer even for low or no pay legal work would yield staggering returns down the line.

sawwaverunner wrote:Jazz, Does your school have some sort of grant program that can fund public interest internships? That's how I'm getting through the summer.

Good idea. I'll look into it.

disco_barred wrote:

JazzOne wrote:

disco_barred wrote:

JazzOne wrote:I have a family. I need a paying job, and I will get one; it just might not be in the legal field.

If you ever want a legal job that will help you provide for your family, not getting one - even as an RA - is an unfathomably poor life choice for your 1L summer.

Tell that to my family. What would suggest I do if I am not offered a paid legal job? Not pay my rent so I can volunteer for legal aid? I'd rather go back to teaching. I'm not incurring any debt for LS anyway.

I mean, if your goal is something other than using 2L fall recruiting to land a firm or government gig, more power to you. Enjoy your summer.

But if you do want a firm job 2l summer and/or beyond, the lack of legal work your 1L summer is a kiss of death. You might be going to law school for free but the opportunity cost is still enormous. Taking on the debt to survive the summer even for low or no pay legal work would yield staggering returns down the line.

To me, the unrealized potential for extra income at some point in the future is not worth the stress of guaranteed debt now. Volunteering in a legal position this summer isn't going to guarantee me big law. Who would loan me the money anyway? I don't have a job. Anyone willing to lend me enough money ITE to support my needs for an entire summer ought to have his head examined.

JazzOne wrote: To me, the unrealized potential for extra income at some point in the future is not worth the stress of guaranteed debt now. Volunteering in a legal position this summer isn't going to guarantee me big law. Who would loan me the money anyway? I don't have a job. Anyone willing to lend me enough money ITE to support my needs for an entire summer ought to have his head examined.

You can always get 5 credit cards and max them out, then declare bankruptcy at the end of the summer.

Two words ring true for dealing with these times: adapt and overcome. The state of the economy means that a lot of our cohorts, both current students and recent graduates, will not be in the legal community very long. But the strong always survive and they are the ones that look for and capitalize on every opportunity (even non-legal ones).