Top Law Schools

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Only leave for HYS.

Is top 10% going to grade you on to law review?

If you want NYC, it would be (in my opinion) really tough to pass up Columbia, if you were to get in. Furthermore, Columbia would be better than Chicago for your purposes--it is difficult to argue with Columbia's NYC placement. As a result, I would recommend that you DON'T do Chicago ED, even though I think you would have a reasonable chance at getting in.

Furthermore, if your grades improve this semester, you will have a shot at HYS.

Don't do Chicago ED. I wouldn't bother with GULC ED either. I think you should consider transferring to CCN if you get in, and HYS should be definite.

Bankhead wrote:Only leave for HYS.

why? I mean if the goal is nyc/dc and you're at a school like UT or UCLA that mostly place in their respective mini-country I think you'll have much better luck at uchicago. Also, if you're getting no money and are far from home I see no reason to stay at a 17 (that don't happen to place very well in your target markets). Chicago has fantastic ny placement and if you're doing top 10% at a school like UT or wherever you'll likely do quite well at UofC (its not like you're transferring from Hofstra or something, you don't have to worry if you can cut it at a top level school). There is nothing keeping you where you are and there are big advantages to Chicago. No idea about HYS.

I transferred from BU/BC/GW to MVP this year and I highly recommend it. The transfers at my MVP did relatively well overall during OCI and the opportunities coming out of this school are much better.

The schools outside the T14 got slaughtered at OCI this year. I personally know several people on LR at my old school who have nothing for the summer lined up. If you don't have money at your current school then transfer up, but don't bother with Georgetown or Chicago ED. Just apply to HYSCCN during the summer. I think that CCN would be worthwhile, but I wouldn't bother with lower than that considering you are already at UT/Vandy/UCLA.

I have no way of knowing if I will grade on law review or my actual ranking.

3.72 from Vandy is an absolute lock for CCN. I think you have a strong shot at H too, but have to keep those grades there. Most of the incoming transfers from decent schools to MVP have 3.5ish GPAs.

Congrats on the 1L grades. I wasn't aware you guys got yours in before we did... I'm still actually waiting on one of the law-and-econ profs to post grades for a relatively small class. I would think a 3.7 puts you solidly in the top 10% but I only have anecdotal info based on when I was a 1L. As far as transferring back to Chicago (presumably where you're from) I'd say go for it if you're not enjoying it down here. The cultures are going to be very different among the schools, and most people here don't rank 'getting good grades' as one of the things they like about it. You should go where you think you'll be happiest.

As far as job prospects go in NY/DC, you're going to be fine coming from Vandy for next year (and especially if you make LR). If you're here on a scholly I would actually advocate staying absent strong personal considerations. Regardless, I suggest talking to the managing editor of LR if you want better advice from a Vandy 3L in a similar position to you and see what he says about job opps. FWIW you're also in the range for federal clerkships if you can keep that gpa up, an area we've continued to do well in despite the increased competition this year. If clerking is something you're interested in, shoot an email off to the clerkship advisor and ask for his advice... he's very quick about getting back to people, and he'll also be honest with you about the difference in clerkship prospects coming from Chi vs. here. He may even advocate for you to transfer, especially if you can get into HYS.

But if choosing between here at sticker or Chicago at sticker, I don't have much to offer in favor of staying here unless you really liked the environment and felt that your surroundings were at least partially to credit for how well you performed in your first semester. We won't ostracize you if you leave and you can always come back to visit and hang out with friends over the next couple of years. You seem bent on leaving and returning to colder pastures so I wouldn't dissuade you from going that route, particularly if you really care about the prestige factor. G'luck in making a decision and be sure to ask around so you get a better idea of what your job prospects will look like if you decide to stay.

Also, if you're in NFDS I strongly recommend you let them know about your plans, as they will need to find a replacement for your dissenting ass.

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thegrandinquisitor wrote:Thanks Observationalist,

When I said before that I was unhappy last semester, it was more of a reflection of myself than Vandy Law generally. 2 of my professors were astonishingly brilliant, my classmates are very smart, and overall, I feel that the education I am receiving here is absolutely top-notch. That being said, I am from the a big northern city, and while a lot of people I know from the north love it here in Nashville, and while I'm sure it can get a lot more southern in other places, I just get along better in the north.

I'm definitely going to consult those references (Bressman, right) and my professors before making this decision.

Well from one Yank to the next I wish you luck... and yes, Bressman would be your man (as compared with Bresswoman, who may be less accessible but still worth reaching out to if you had her for class). Either way, g'luck.

...

I was just about to say that if you were at Texas to stay unless you got into HYS. The other thing that you need to think about is which of the two markets you really want, DC or NYC. The markets are very different and I get the idea that you haven't really looked into that since you are saying "I want V100 or V50 or better", as while that would make sense for gauging NYC big law (all of the big time NYC firms like Wachtell, Cravath, Davis Polk, Simpson Thatcher) it doesn't make that much sense for gauging DC biglaw. Many of the elite DC firms are not even V20 or on the vault list (Kelogg Huber etc.).

The other thing is that market choice will make a big difference in what level of transfer will really make the difference you want it to be. If you want NYC biglaw transferring up to any of CCN would be fine--so much so that I would just go for the ED to Chicago now to be safe. However if you are looking at the elite DC firms I would definitely hold out for HYS. Frankly, from what I've seen DC seems to look at things like this: either an applicant is HYS, top 10, or they are neither of those. They don't seem to really cut up the top 14 to the extent that TLS or other markets do. You are either HYS or another top 14 (or again, not top 14 at all). I think a lot of this may have to do with the fact that the top of H and Y (and to a much lesser extent Stanford) flock to DC in droves.

kurama20 wrote:I was just about to say that if you were at Texas to stay unless you got into HYS. The other thing that you need to think about is which of the two markets you really want, DC or NYC. The markets are very different and I get the idea that you haven't really looked into that since you are saying "I want V100 or V50 or better", as while that would make sense for gauging NYC big law (all of the big time NYC firms like Wachtell, Cravath, Davis Polk, Simpson Thatcher) it doesn't make that much sense for gauging DC biglaw. Many of the elite DC firms are not even V20 or on the vault list (Kelogg Huber etc.).

The other thing is that market choice will make a big difference in what level of transfer will really make the difference you want it to be. If you want NYC biglaw transferring up to any of CCN would be fine--so much so that I would just go for the ED to Chicago now to be safe. However if you are looking at the elite DC firms I would definitely hold out for HYS. Frankly, from what I've seen DC seems to look at things like this: either an applicant is HYS, top 10, or they are neither of those. They don't seem to really cut up the top 14 to the extent that TLS or other markets do. You are either HYS or another top 14 (or again, not top 14 at all). I think a lot of this may have to do with the fact that the top of H and Y (and to a much lesser extent Stanford) flock to DC in droves.

Are you asserting that a Chicago degree won't translate well to the DC market? I'm not criticizing, but seriously asking since I'm considering Chicago ED myself, and DC is my preferred city to work in.

edit: n/m

apper123 wrote:

kurama20 wrote:I was just about to say that if you were at Texas to stay unless you got into HYS. The other thing that you need to think about is which of the two markets you really want, DC or NYC. The markets are very different and I get the idea that you haven't really looked into that since you are saying "I want V100 or V50 or better", as while that would make sense for gauging NYC big law (all of the big time NYC firms like Wachtell, Cravath, Davis Polk, Simpson Thatcher) it doesn't make that much sense for gauging DC biglaw. Many of the elite DC firms are not even V20 or on the vault list (Kelogg Huber etc.).

The other thing is that market choice will make a big difference in what level of transfer will really make the difference you want it to be. If you want NYC biglaw transferring up to any of CCN would be fine--so much so that I would just go for the ED to Chicago now to be safe. However if you are looking at the elite DC firms I would definitely hold out for HYS. Frankly, from what I've seen DC seems to look at things like this: either an applicant is HYS, top 10, or they are neither of those. They don't seem to really cut up the top 14 to the extent that TLS or other markets do. You are either HYS or another top 14 (or again, not top 14 at all). I think a lot of this may have to do with the fact that the top of H and Y (and to a much lesser extent Stanford) flock to DC in droves.

Are you asserting that a Chicago degree won't translate well to the DC market? I'm not criticizing, but seriously asking since I'm considering Chicago ED myself, and DC is my preferred city to work in.

Not at all. But the gap between HYS (especially HY) and Chicago for DC is (unfortunately) large enough that it would be in his best interest not to ED there. Frankly, I think that he would still have trouble getting a job at say Covington DC, and no chance at a place like Jenner DC as a Vandy to Chicago transfer. While with HYS (especially Yale) this would not be the case at all. From Yale as a transfer he might be a lock for Covington DC for instance. Now if he wants NYC the gap between HYS and CCN is small enough that it would be worth it to just ED at Chicago. NYC firms don't seem to view HYS as being leaps and bounds better than CCN like the top DC firms do. Again I think this had to do with the fact that the top of the class at HYS (mainly HY) flock to DC in droves.

I want NYC.

thesealocust wrote:

kurama20 wrote:I was just about to say that if you were at Texas to stay unless you got into HYS. The other thing that you need to think about is which of the two markets you really want, DC or NYC. The markets are very different and I get the idea that you haven't really looked into that since you are saying "I want V100 or V50 or better", as while that would make sense for gauging NYC big law (all of the big time NYC firms like Wachtell, Cravath, Davis Polk, Simpson Thatcher) it doesn't make that much sense for gauging DC biglaw. Many of the elite DC firms are not even V20 or on the vault list (Kelogg Huber etc.).

The other thing is that market choice will make a big difference in what level of transfer will really make the difference you want it to be. If you want NYC biglaw transferring up to any of CCN would be fine--so much so that I would just go for the ED to Chicago now to be safe. However if you are looking at the elite DC firms I would definitely hold out for HYS. Frankly, from what I've seen DC seems to look at things like this: either an applicant is HYS, top 10, or they are neither of those. They don't seem to really cut up the top 14 to the extent that TLS or other markets do. You are either HYS or another top 14 (or again, not top 14 at all). I think a lot of this may have to do with the fact that the top of H and Y (and to a much lesser extent Stanford) flock to DC in droves.

OK, new plan: You're only allowed to have an avatar after you start law school. Until then, the image under your name needs to read "I AM A 0L, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO IGNORE THE ADVICE I GIVE IN THE LAW STUDENTS FORUM"

OK New plan. You're not allowed to talk about women until after you actually have dated and or had sex with one. Until then, the image under your name needs to read" I have never spoken to or kissed a woman in my life, and I am trying to get a big law job so I can have my first kiss".

Read my response before you make lame supposedly airtight comments after 1 semester of law school !!! l If you read my response you will see why I said what I did, and why it's right! lol So now that I've been in school for 4 months I now know everything about the legal field! lol !!! Only on TLS!

Actually if you disagree with the Covington or Jenner comment I KNOW You don't know what the hell you're talking about. Coming from Chicago as opposed to HYS is going to make a HUGE difference in whether or not someone will be hired by Jenner DC or Covington DC depending on grades/rank.

thegrandinquisitor wrote:I want NYC.

If you're nervous ED to Chicago, if not wait it out for HYS or Columbia.

illegalcheeser wrote:inquisitor, Section A/B?

B

thegrandinquisitor wrote:I want NYC.

Don't ED to Chicago. CLS will have you. In fact, HLS may well have you.

What is the difference between Chicago, Columbia and NYU in terms of NYC biglaw?

Also, even though I've heard that Hyde Park is not an optimal location, I might enjoy spending two years in Chicago to get a feel for a different city, especially knowing that I'd be able to go to NYC in two years. (one of the reasons I haven't enjoyed myself here at Vandy is a serious fear of being stuck in the South).

It would be my dream to go to Harvard, but a week ago it would have been my dream to go to UVA. Honestly, I think that "settling" for Chicago might not be a bad idea and is the safer play.

Thoughts?

thegrandinquisitor wrote:What is the difference between Chicago, Columbia and NYU in terms of NYC biglaw?

Also, even though I've heard that Hyde Park is not an optimal location, I might enjoy spending two years in Chicago to get a feel for a different city, especially knowing that I'd be able to go to NYC in two years. (one of the reasons I haven't enjoyed myself here at Vandy is a serious fear of being stuck in the South).

It would be my dream to go to Harvard, but a week ago it would have been my dream to go to UVA. Honestly, I think that "settling" for Chicago might not be a bad idea and is the safer play.

Thoughts?

For NYC biglaw, Columbia does considerbly better than Chicago--not to mention the networking opportunities that are available to you. Seriously, as someone who did transfer to Chicago ED, it really is only appropriate for people who know for an ABSOLUTE FACT that they want to practice in Chicago. Even then, I don't recommend it to people who have a shot at Harvard--which you will, if your grades stay the same or improve a bit. I was the perfect Chicago ED candidate and I still have pangs of regret, at times--your desire to work in NYC really should remove Chicago ED from your consideration (though you should certainly apply here for regular decision--but Columbia v. Chicago, and I would argue NYU, is a no-brainer for someone who wants to practice in NYC.)

I'm always wondering, why do people think (and whether or not this is true is debatable) that HYS is somehow in a separate league than the rest of the T14?

I can understand Yale (at least to a greater extent) just because it's so hard to get in. You not only need amazing numbers but also be a unique flower. To a lesser extent Stanford, though with high enough grades you have a very good shot at SLS.

The difference between the average person at Harvard as opposed to CLS is probably 2 LSAT questions or a couple more A's as opposed to A-'s in UG. Is that really such a big deal? And plenty of people who are at CCN have identical or better numbers than some people at HYS.

I suppose at the end of the day it's the branding that matters not the quality of student.

legends159 wrote:I'm always wondering, why do people think (and whether or not this is true is debatable) that HYS is somehow in a separate league than the rest of the T14?

I can understand Yale (at least to a greater extent) just because it's so hard to get in. You not only need amazing numbers but also be a unique flower. To a lesser extent Stanford, though with high enough grades you have a very good shot at SLS.

The difference between the average person at Harvard as opposed to CLS is probably 2 LSAT questions or a couple more A's as opposed to A-'s in UG. Is that really such a big deal? And plenty of people who are at CCN have identical or better numbers than some people at HYS.

I suppose at the end of the day it's the branding that matters not the quality of student.

If it was just up to educational quality and such, I wouldn't care about the difference between H and Chicago. Unfortunately, H really does open up different doors.

thegrandinquisitor wrote:What is the difference between Chicago, Columbia and NYU in terms of NYC biglaw?

Also, even though I've heard that Hyde Park is not an optimal location, I might enjoy spending two years in Chicago to get a feel for a different city, especially knowing that I'd be able to go to NYC in two years. (one of the reasons I haven't enjoyed myself here at Vandy is a serious fear of being stuck in the South).

It would be my dream to go to Harvard, but a week ago it would have been my dream to go to UVA. Honestly, I think that "settling" for Chicago might not be a bad idea and is the safer play.

Thoughts?

While Chicago can get you to NYC just fine, you simply will have far less legwork to do if you simply elect to go to a school in the area where you wish to practice. In your case, that means CLS is the credited response.

(Btw, I say this as the NYC hopeful that's currently attending U of C. Yes, I can get to NYC from here. But would life be easier if I were at an NYC school to begin with? Heck, yes.)

CLS has accepted top 20 percent kids from Indiana in the past. I really don't think it's a stretch to presume that they'll take you, particularly given their relatively large transfer class.