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PRACTICING ATTORNEY TRANSFER (Non-ABA GRAD)
Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:57 pm
by catechumen
So here is a hard one for you guys…
I went to an ABA school for a year. I then started over at a Non-ABA school and graduated. After that I passed the notoriously difficult California Bar Exam. Since then, I have been involved in a few prominent federal appellate Constitutional law cases.
However, I am limited where I can sit for the Bar. Places like CA, NC, WA, WI, etc. are more progressive and have started recognizing that Non-ABA grads should be allowed to sit for their exam. Sadly a number of other states have not gotten with the times, but we are making progress with changing the laws across the country.
Anyway, I want to knock out an ABA degree as quick as possible. Preferably starting as a 3L or 2.5L, otherwise what’s the point…
Where could I transfer to and who is going to give me the maximum number of credits given my educational and professional background?
I don't care where I go, I just need a ABA degree as quickly and easily as possible so that I can sit for the bar exam to open up where I can practice. Thanks.
Re: PRACTICING ATTORNEY TRANSFER (Non-ABA GRAD)
Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:45 pm
by nixy
Honestly not sure how much time you’re going to be able to count - ABA accreditation usually requires a certain percentage of your course credits be taken at the school you graduate from, which is why there’s a cap on how many credits a person can transfer to a new school - you usually have to do the equivalent of 2 years. Also not sure that you can actually transfer if you’ve completed a JD?
I think you’re just going to have to call up likely schools and ask them individually - I don’t think there’s a lot of info about this.
Re: PRACTICING ATTORNEY TRANSFER (Non-ABA GRAD)
Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:34 pm
by catechumen
I had a not so nice conversation with the head of admissions of a small T4 school today.
They told me that my ABA credits expired after 7 years according to an unnamed ABA rule. A quick google search reveals no such rule. I would love to see a citation for that rule and if its required for accreditation or not. I guess they spoil like milk according to this guy, lol. And my non-ABA credits were worthless too. According to him. He didn't care that I had passed the bar, had practiced or been involved in prominent cases.
I guess what I am looking for is a lead to what schools to reach out to. Schools that are more likely to accept a transfer student as a 2.5L or 3L.
nixy wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:45 pm
Honestly not sure how much time you’re going to be able to count - ABA accreditation usually requires a certain percentage of your course credits be taken at the school you graduate from, which is why there’s a cap on how many credits a person can transfer to a new school - you usually have to do the equivalent of 2 years. Also not sure that you can actually transfer if you’ve completed a JD?
I think you’re just going to have to call up likely schools and ask them individually - I don’t think there’s a lot of info about this.
Re: PRACTICING ATTORNEY TRANSFER (Non-ABA GRAD)
Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:16 pm
by nixy
So I think what you're looking for is this:
ABA Standard 505. GRANTING OF J.D. DEGREE CREDIT FOR PRIOR LAW STUDY
. . . .(b) A law school may admit a student and grant credit for courses completed at a law school in the United States that is not approved by the Council if the unapproved law school has been granted the power to confer the J.D. degree by the appropriate governmental authority in the unapproved law school’s jurisdiction, or if graduates of the unapproved law school are permitted to sit for the bar examination in the jurisdiction in which the unapproved law school is located, provided that:
(1) the courses were undertaken as a J.D. degree student; and
(2) the law school would have granted credit toward satisfaction of J.D. degree requirements if earned at the admitting school. . . .
(e) A law school that grants credit as provided in Standard 505(a) through (d) may award a J.D. degree to a student who successfully completes a course of study that satisfies the requirements of Standard 311 and that meets all of the school’s requirements for the awarding of the J.D. degree.
(f) Credit hours granted pursuant to subsection (b) through (d) shall not, individually or in combination, exceed one-third of the total required by the admitting school for its J.D. degree.
So this strongly suggests you won't find anywhere that will let you enroll as a 2.5L or 3L because you can't transfer in more than 1/3 of your required credits. (Anecdotally, this is the case for people with foreign JDs; if they want an actual US JD degree, rather than doing a one-year LLM, they may be able to get it done in 2 years but not less than that, despite having a law degree already.)
Also, the reference to ABA 311 is a problem, because that states:
(b) A law school shall require that the course of study for the J.D. degree be completed no earlier
than 24 months and, except in extraordinary circumstances, no later than 84 months after a
student has commenced law study at the law school or a law school from which the school has
accepted transfer credit.
So that looks like your seven-year expiration date. (Examples of extraordinary circumstances given are illness, family exigency, and military service.)
I'm not trying to give you a hard time and I'm not saying that you having graduated, passed the bar, and obtained some practice experience (if that's what involvement in prominent cases means) shouldn't count for anything. But it looks like it probably doesn't, and the less time you spend banging your head against a wall, the better.
Re: PRACTICING ATTORNEY TRANSFER (Non-ABA GRAD)
Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:06 am
by catechumen
Thanks this is helpful. I guess I just need to use reciprocity and lobbying to get admitted where I need to. I have friends who have petitioned various states to get admitted and get the rules changed.
The best revenge is to live well.
Anyway, the ABA is a protectionist partisan political organization. I should not be surprised they have rules trying to keep me out of the profession.
Again, thanks and feel free to make any other suggestions.
nixy wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:16 pm
So I think what you're looking for is this:
ABA Standard 505. GRANTING OF J.D. DEGREE CREDIT FOR PRIOR LAW STUDY
. . . .(b) A law school may admit a student and grant credit for courses completed at a law school in the United States that is not approved by the Council if the unapproved law school has been granted the power to confer the J.D. degree by the appropriate governmental authority in the unapproved law school’s jurisdiction, or if graduates of the unapproved law school are permitted to sit for the bar examination in the jurisdiction in which the unapproved law school is located, provided that:
(1) the courses were undertaken as a J.D. degree student; and
(2) the law school would have granted credit toward satisfaction of J.D. degree requirements if earned at the admitting school. . . .
(e) A law school that grants credit as provided in Standard 505(a) through (d) may award a J.D. degree to a student who successfully completes a course of study that satisfies the requirements of Standard 311 and that meets all of the school’s requirements for the awarding of the J.D. degree.
(f) Credit hours granted pursuant to subsection (b) through (d) shall not, individually or in combination, exceed one-third of the total required by the admitting school for its J.D. degree.
So this strongly suggests you won't find anywhere that will let you enroll as a 2.5L or 3L because you can't transfer in more than 1/3 of your required credits. (Anecdotally, this is the case for people with foreign JDs; if they want an actual US JD degree, rather than doing a one-year LLM, they may be able to get it done in 2 years but not less than that, despite having a law degree already.)
Also, the reference to ABA 311 is a problem, because that states:
(b) A law school shall require that the course of study for the J.D. degree be completed no earlier
than 24 months and, except in extraordinary circumstances, no later than 84 months after a
student has commenced law study at the law school or a law school from which the school has
accepted transfer credit.
So that looks like your seven-year expiration date. (Examples of extraordinary circumstances given are illness, family exigency, and military service.)
I'm not trying to give you a hard time and I'm not saying that you having graduated, passed the bar, and obtained some practice experience (if that's what involvement in prominent cases means) shouldn't count for anything. But it looks like it probably doesn't, and the less time you spend banging your head against a wall, the better.
Re: PRACTICING ATTORNEY TRANSFER (Non-ABA GRAD)
Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:04 am
by ignorantfoot96
catechumen wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:06 am
Thanks this is helpful. I guess I just need to use reciprocity and lobbying to get admitted where I need to. I have friends who have petitioned various states to get admitted and get the rules changed.
The best revenge is to live well.
Anyway, the ABA is a protectionist partisan political organization. I should not be surprised they have rules trying to keep me out of the profession.
Again, thanks and feel free to make any other suggestions.
nixy wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:16 pm
So I think what you're looking for is this:
ABA Standard 505. GRANTING OF J.D. DEGREE CREDIT FOR PRIOR LAW STUDY
. . . .(b) A law school may admit a student and grant credit for courses completed at a law school in the United States that is not approved by the Council if the unapproved law school has been granted the power to confer the J.D. degree by the appropriate governmental authority in the unapproved law school’s jurisdiction, or if graduates of the unapproved law school are permitted to sit for the bar examination in the jurisdiction in which the unapproved law school is located, provided that:
(1) the courses were undertaken as a J.D. degree student; and
(2) the law school would have granted credit toward satisfaction of J.D. degree requirements if earned at the admitting school. . . .
(e) A law school that grants credit as provided in Standard 505(a) through (d) may award a J.D. degree to a student who successfully completes a course of study that satisfies the requirements of Standard 311 and that meets all of the school’s requirements for the awarding of the J.D. degree.
(f) Credit hours granted pursuant to subsection (b) through (d) shall not, individually or in combination, exceed one-third of the total required by the admitting school for its J.D. degree.
So this strongly suggests you won't find anywhere that will let you enroll as a 2.5L or 3L because you can't transfer in more than 1/3 of your required credits. (Anecdotally, this is the case for people with foreign JDs; if they want an actual US JD degree, rather than doing a one-year LLM, they may be able to get it done in 2 years but not less than that, despite having a law degree already.)
Also, the reference to ABA 311 is a problem, because that states:
(b) A law school shall require that the course of study for the J.D. degree be completed no earlier
than 24 months and, except in extraordinary circumstances, no later than 84 months after a
student has commenced law study at the law school or a law school from which the school has
accepted transfer credit.
So that looks like your seven-year expiration date. (Examples of extraordinary circumstances given are illness, family exigency, and military service.)
I'm not trying to give you a hard time and I'm not saying that you having graduated, passed the bar, and obtained some practice experience (if that's what involvement in prominent cases means) shouldn't count for anything. But it looks like it probably doesn't, and the less time you spend banging your head against a wall, the better.
None of this is meant in a harsh way as you clearly are a very intelligent individual who has done well for him/her self but this is the whole reason why people should not go to non ABA accredited schools. Have you considered just restarting in a part time program? Idk the rules at all, but maybe you could continue in your job and then attend part time somewhere? (super don't know but just an idea)
Re: PRACTICING ATTORNEY TRANSFER (Non-ABA GRAD)
Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:05 am
by cavalier1138
catechumen wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:06 am
Anyway, the ABA is a protectionist partisan political organization. I should not be surprised they have rules trying to keep me out of the profession.
You're a practicing lawyer, so they obviously haven't done a very good job. Which leads me to this question:
catechumen wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:57 pm
I don't care where I go, I just need a ABA degree as quickly and easily as possible so that I can sit for the bar exam to open up where I can practice.
You can already practice in California. Based on your post history, you spent roughly a decade earning that right, so why do you want to move?
(And as others pointed out, you're not going to be admitted as a "2.5L" anywhere. It's highly unlikely you can get admitted as a transfer, period.)