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Transferred from a 50ish (don't know what the rank is now) school to a T14, practiced at a V10 firm for several years before going in house for several more years.

If you had the option, would you have gone in-house directly after law school or to your V10?

If you had to go back, would you make the same decision to transfer?

At what stage in your career did headhunters start contacting you about in-house jobs, and how did you know it was time to leave the firm?

acr wrote:If you had the option, would you have gone in-house directly after law school or to your V10?

As much as I hated biglaw (I expected it to be awful, and it was still far worse than I imagined), it was excellent training, a great resume line, and substantial pay. I'd probably do it again. I graduated without debt, so each year I was at the V10, I threw well over $100k into investments. Keep in mind this was during the financial crisis when all assets were cheaper. I can't even believe how much I amassed during that time.

Se7enChop wrote:If you had to go back, would you make the same decision to transfer?

Absolutely. I know everyone says to never do this, but I went to my first law school planning to transfer out. Having access to the T14’s OCI was huge. My V10 didn't even interview at my old school.

Of course, school and grades matter less and less as time goes by, but they're crucial for that first job.

bwh8813 wrote:At what stage in your career did headhunters start contacting you about in-house jobs, and how did you know it was time to leave the firm?

LOL. The headhunters weren't exactly breaking down my door - it was an extremely long and difficult search, without the help of any recruiters. I had plenty of recruiters who tried to convince me to lateral to another biglaw firm. When I told them I wanted to go in house, they basically laughed and said good luck. One of the interviews I went to at a well known tech company put all of us in a room together to wait and I realized I was sitting in a crowd of V10 attorneys with the same, or better, credentials. It was extremely disheartening.

When I was in law school I figured I'd do some time in biglaw, then go in house for better work life balance. I realized about 5 months into my first year that I wanted to leave ASAP. It took me several years to get out.

ThrowawayName wrote:Absolutely. I know everyone says to never do this, but I went to my first law school planning to transfer out. Having access to the T14’s OCI was huge. My V10 didn't even interview at my old school.

Of course, school and grades matter less and less as time goes by, but they're crucial for that first job.

I love how conventional that seems to be. I also attended my previous law school with full intention of transferring. I gunned to make sure I could and I successfully transferred to a T14.

KunAgnis wrote:

ThrowawayName wrote:Absolutely. I know everyone says to never do this, but I went to my first law school planning to transfer out. Having access to the T14’s OCI was huge. My V10 didn't even interview at my old school.

Of course, school and grades matter less and less as time goes by, but they're crucial for that first job.

I love how conventional that seems to be. I also attended my previous law school with full intention of transferring. I gunned to make sure I could and I successfully transferred to a T14.

As a fellow transfer, please don't take this insight into the law school admission forum to support the kid thinking of going to John Marshall with the intention of transferring (when there's a high chance that they won't)

Nebby wrote:

KunAgnis wrote:

ThrowawayName wrote:Absolutely. I know everyone says to never do this, but I went to my first law school planning to transfer out. Having access to the T14’s OCI was huge. My V10 didn't even interview at my old school.

Of course, school and grades matter less and less as time goes by, but they're crucial for that first job.

I love how conventional that seems to be. I also attended my previous law school with full intention of transferring. I gunned to make sure I could and I successfully transferred to a T14.

As a fellow transfer, please don't take this insight into the law school admission forum to support the kid thinking of going to John Marshall with the intention of transferring (when there's a high chance that they won't)

I agree with you in that it should not be advised, as it is more unlikely than not. But I think it happens each year with enough frequency that it is not impossible, just hard.

I would imagine everyone who does transfer gunned and worked really hard. I'd imagine a lot of people who gunned and worked really hard didn't end up in a position to transfer, too.

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I would imagine everyone who does transfer gunned and worked really hard. I'd imagine a lot of people who gunned and worked really hard didn't end up in a position to transfer, too.

While this is true, there are certain reasons to expect why you might have a better chance than most to do it. For instance, many law students party a lot in law school. Cutting that back or cutting it out entirely give you much more free time to study. If you study smart and don't derail yourself with your own conduct, you will have a pretty good chance of doing well.

Don't get me wrong. I think there is some degree of arbitrariness in law school. But you can cut down on the amount of it by what you do. The whole "don't expect to transfer" trope is overplayed, IMO.

I wouldn't recommend that anyone go to a law school they wouldn't be ok with graduating from, but I don't see the downside in trying to transfer - trying to be at the top of the class will always serve you well. It’s also a bit hypocritical to say this worked out for me, but you shouldn't try it. I gambled, it paid off, and it made a huge positive difference in my life. I had less than stellar undergrad grades (although they trended upwards) and an LSAT score that was the same as my first practice test (I had the flu when I took it and didn't re-take). Nine months of hard work during 1L pretty much wiped the slate clean.

Actually, I'm still benefiting from those 1L grades. I returned to my slacker ways at the T14 and probably finished in the bottom quarter of the class but my firm never asked for 2L/3L grades and my current employer never asked for a transcript.

Agreed w/r/t not trying, but of course, that's the point of law school. Also, I think grades have played less importance in your career path than they might for others. I have never been placed by a recruiter, but based on the conversations I have had, they continue to matter for most of your career. Obviously, though, they'd be trumped by a person's BoB.

run26.2 wrote:

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I would imagine everyone who does transfer gunned and worked really hard. I'd imagine a lot of people who gunned and worked really hard didn't end up in a position to transfer, too.

While this is true, there are certain reasons to expect why you might have a better chance than most to do it. For instance, many law students party a lot in law school. Cutting that back or cutting it out entirely give you much more free time to study. If you study smart and don't derail yourself with your own conduct, you will have a pretty good chance of doing well.

Don't get me wrong. I think there is some degree of arbitrariness in law school. But you can cut down on the amount of it by what you do. The whole "don't expect to transfer" trope is overplayed, IMO.

I don't have a problem with people trying to transfer - like the post above said, there isn't really a downside - but I really don't think the trope is overplayed. Don't something like 95% of a given class *not* transfer? (Unless it's WashU for some reason. ) People who say they could transfer because they were able to outwork other people are operating with a lack of information and pretty severe confirmation bias. (And I don't believe law school grades are arbitrary, I just think they're extremely difficult to predict, because of the curve, because usually you're operating on a fairly narrow LSAT/GPA band, and because you just can't know where you fall among your classmates on exam-taking ability.)

I went to law school for the usual reason of I didn't know what else to do with my life and the practice of law seemed to coincide with things I would like in a career. I went to school with the intention of doing the absolute best I could and adjusted my lifestyle accordingly. I did not know that transferring was a thing until the end of first semester.

There is a part of me that wishes I would have done things the correct way (i.e., actually study for the LSAT), and that is why I try to tell prospective students that they should not go to law school with the assumption that they'll do well enough to transfer to a school worth transferring to. I also think that someone who posts on TLS and says "I'm going to this school with the intention of transferring out" is going to get hit with a Dunning-Kruger reality, and I think it would be a disservice to not tell that person the odds are stacked against them.

run26.2 wrote:Agreed w/r/t not trying, but of course, that's the point of law school. Also, I think grades have played less importance in your career path than they might for others. I have never been placed by a recruiter, but based on the conversations I have had, they continue to matter for most of your career. Obviously, though, they'd be trumped by a person's BoB.

BoB?

ThrowawayName wrote:

run26.2 wrote:Agreed w/r/t not trying, but of course, that's the point of law school. Also, I think grades have played less importance in your career path than they might for others. I have never been placed by a recruiter, but based on the conversations I have had, they continue to matter for most of your career. Obviously, though, they'd be trumped by a person's BoB.

BoB?

Book of Business.

A. Nony Mouse wrote:

run26.2 wrote:

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I would imagine everyone who does transfer gunned and worked really hard. I'd imagine a lot of people who gunned and worked really hard didn't end up in a position to transfer, too.

While this is true, there are certain reasons to expect why you might have a better chance than most to do it. For instance, many law students party a lot in law school. Cutting that back or cutting it out entirely give you much more free time to study. If you study smart and don't derail yourself with your own conduct, you will have a pretty good chance of doing well.

Don't get me wrong. I think there is some degree of arbitrariness in law school. But you can cut down on the amount of it by what you do. The whole "don't expect to transfer" trope is overplayed, IMO.

I don't have a problem with people trying to transfer - like the post above said, there isn't really a downside - but I really don't think the trope is overplayed. Don't something like 95% of a given class *not* transfer? (Unless it's WashU for some reason. ) People who say they could transfer because they were able to outwork other people are operating with a lack of information and pretty severe confirmation bias. (And I don't believe law school grades are arbitrary, I just think they're extremely difficult to predict, because of the curve, because usually you're operating on a fairly narrow LSAT/GPA band, and because you just can't know where you fall among your classmates on exam-taking ability.)

I'm a former transfer as well and I agree with this.

Nebby wrote:There is a part of me that wishes I would have done things the correct way (i.e., actually study for the LSAT), and that is why I try to tell prospective students that they should not go to law school with the assumption that they'll do well enough to transfer to a school worth transferring to. I also think that someone who posts on TLS and says "I'm going to this school with the intention of transferring out" is going to get hit with a Dunning-Kruger reality, and I think it would be a disservice to not tell that person the odds are stacked against them.

Also agree with this.

But getting back to the point of the thread:
- You mentioned that it was difficult to make the move in house. How did you eventually do it successfully? Was it a client of your firm or just general applications? Did you have experience (either prior WE or in biglaw) with the type of company you ended up at?
- Were you corp or lit at the V10?
- How do you like in house? What kind of work do you do? What level did you come in at (both seniority-wise and salary-wise)?

quiver wrote: - You mentioned that it was difficult to make the move in house. How did you eventually do it successfully? Was it a client of your firm or just general applications? Did you have experience (either prior WE or in biglaw) with the type of company you ended up at?
- Were you corp or lit at the V10?
- How do you like in house? What kind of work do you do? What level did you come in at (both seniority-wise and salary-wise)?

I didn't have any useful prior work experience or client ties, so I used online listings to find an in house job. I wouldn't recommend this. It was exhausting to come home after 10 or 12 hours and have to work on job applications after that.

I was a corporate associate and now I do a little bit of everything. It's hard to say where I came in seniority wise - my company is not big on titles and the organization is pretty flat. I'm two levels away from the CEO. I make about a third less than I would be making in biglaw.

It is FANTASTIC. Work life balance has been better than I hoped for and the work is interesting. Most days, I don't feel like I'm a lawyer. This is a plus for me, but probably not for everyone.

As much as I hated biglaw (I expected it to be awful, and it was still far worse than I imagined), it was excellent training, a great resume line, and substantial pay. I'd probably do it again. I graduated without debt, so each year I was at the V10, I threw well over $100k into investments. Keep in mind this was during the financial crisis when all assets were cheaper. I can't even believe how much I amassed during that time.

Can I ask you why it was so awful? Was it the long hours and not knowing when you might get called to the office? Or did you just not find the work interesting?

the problem with threads like this (OP and those similar to OP) is that success stories reinforce the special snowflake syndrome of kids going into law school thinking they'd end up in top 10%. So stop constructing normalcy based on limited anecdotal stories and learn to accept that statistics doesn't discriminate.

perfunctory wrote:Can I ask you why it was so awful? Was it the long hours and not knowing when you might get called to the office? Or did you just not find the work interesting?

I'm fine with boring work (and, to some extent, long hours). The problem with biglaw is that you have no control over your time. You can sit around for weeks with nothing to do, and then be pulled into a deal at 4pm on a Friday and barely sleep for the next 5 weeks. At my old firm, there’s an expectation that when you're working on a deal, you're never more than 20 or so minutes away from your computer. So even if you have a Saturday that seems like it might be free, you're pretty limited in what you can do. I wouldn't watch a movie in a theater while on a deal or try to eat at a restaurant with a significant wait. I cancelled so often on family and friends that eventually I just stopped accepting invitations. There’s also the expectation that you never turn down work. If you have enough work to keep you in the office until 10pm and a partner comes by with another matter to work on, you’re “available” - after all, you'll be done with the first matter at 10, right? Your work product also has to continue to be perfect during periods of little or no sleep. The sheer physical exhaustion was something I hadn't considered. (If I can find one of my old planners, maybe I'll post what a typical week was like.)

When not under a crushing workload, you're simultaneously anxious that you're not billing enough and dreading getting hit with work, which can happen at any moment, day or night. Each chime of the BlackBerry could be the email that means you don't sleep for the next 3 days, or have to cancel your weekend trip. It's hard to describe how it feels to completely lose control of your time. I'll just say I know many people who quit after a year or less, even with significant debt.

Hey!

I actually just transferred from a T4 and applying to jobs now. First Im wondering whether its too late to mass mail? Second, do you think I can still have hopes to get a job now or should I wait to have grades from my new school? Third, what firms would you recommend for me to send my resume to? Ive been contacting those ranked on the 60s because I doubt anything higher would take me. Should I also send a CL to each one?

Thanks!!

I attended a T3 thinking I would transfer. I had the opportunity to attend CCN after my first year and chose not too. I am confident that I am in a better position having not transferred, regardless of the money I saved/will save.

What I am trying to say here is, its not always the right choice to move into the t14, or otherwise.

Also, as has been reiterated on this website, and in this particular thread, this is anecdotal advice so probably not even important.

Se7enChop wrote:I attended a T3 thinking I would transfer. I had the opportunity to attend CCN after my first year and chose not too. I am confident that I am in a better position having not transferred, regardless of the money I saved/will save.

What I am trying to say here is, its not always the right choice to move into the t14, or otherwise.

Also, as has been reiterated on this website, and in this particular thread, this is anecdotal advice so probably not even important.

What is the point of this post? Just telling us for fun? Lol

How were you able to transfer to a t14 without taking on debt?