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Berkeley to S/Y/H?
Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:54 pm
by Anonymous User
Was fortunate to receive an HH in each of my doctrinal courses last semester. Also received at least one AmJur/Prosser, if that matters.
Am interested to know how close I'd need to come to a repeat performance this semester to transfer to Stanford, Yale, or Harvard.
To the extent these factors matter:
I am not a URM; I graduated from a somewhat-prestigious liberal arts college on the West Coast; and I have some combination of a useless graduate degree and/or unimpressive work experience.
TLDR; How many Hs does a Berkeley student need to transfer to Stanford?
Please do not quote. Thank you.
Re: Berkeley to S/Y/H?
Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:03 pm
by WheninLaw
Why would you want to transfer.
Re: Berkeley to S/Y/H?
Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:39 pm
by GFox345
WheninLaw wrote:Why would you want to transfer.
This. Given that you are probably close to the top of your class at Berkeley, you will likely degrade your prospects a little bit by giving up your first year grades and any scholarship that you might currently have at Berkeley just to go to HYS. At Student at the top of the class at Berkeley is going to have at least equal (and very likely superior) prospects as a median student at HYS. Why roll the dice again? You already have a great outcome. Unless you have a very specific reason to want to transfer, I would say stay where you are!
Re: Berkeley to S/Y/H?
Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:51 pm
by gchatbrah
Maybe OP realizes what a fucking cesspool of mediocrity Boalt is.
Why the median assumption for HYS?
Re: Berkeley to S/Y/H?
Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:48 am
by A. Nony Mouse
Because until you get to a school and get grades, you don't know where you'll end up and you should assume median to determine if even a bad outcome is worth it to you.
I tend to think that a tip top student at Berkeley is likely to be higher than median af the top 3, but I also agree that if you're a top student at Berkeley you don't need to transfer anywhere.
Re: Berkeley to S/Y/H?
Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 7:36 am
by jbagelboy
WheninLaw wrote:Why would you want to transfer.
Re: Berkeley to S/Y/H?
Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:48 am
by barkschool
I also agree, POTUS opportunities are slightly better at Y than Berklazy.
Re: Berkeley to S/Y/H?
Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:52 am
by stretchedtoothin
jbagelboy wrote:WheninLaw wrote:Why would you want to transfer.
Re: Berkeley to S/Y/H?
Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:21 pm
by Top20TransferHopeful
stretchedtoothin wrote:jbagelboy wrote:WheninLaw wrote:Why would you want to transfer.
Cause graduating from Harvard sounds a lot better than graduating from Berkeley. Plus, OP is going to have a good outcome either way. By staying at Berkeley, OP will be good. Transferring to Harvard as a top student from Berkeley, OP will still be good.
Graduating from Berkeley raises some eyebrows and people/lawyers will think you're smart or whatever, but people will think you're a genius if you graduate from S/H/Y. I'd do it if there's not a big change in debt.
Re: Berkeley to S/Y/H?
Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:24 pm
by dabigchina
Top20TransferHopeful wrote:stretchedtoothin wrote:jbagelboy wrote:WheninLaw wrote:Why would you want to transfer.
Cause graduating from Harvard sounds a lot better than graduating from Berkeley. Plus, OP is going to have a good outcome either way. By staying at Berkeley, OP will be good. Transferring to Harvard as a top student from Berkeley, OP will still be good.
Graduating from Berkeley raises some eyebrows and people/lawyers will think you're smart or whatever, but people will think you're a genius if you graduate from S/H/Y. I'd do it if there's not a big change in debt.
I don't think I've ever heard of anybody scoffing at somebody from Cal.
Re: Berkeley to S/Y/H?
Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:25 pm
by stretchedtoothin
Top20TransferHopeful wrote:stretchedtoothin wrote:jbagelboy wrote:WheninLaw wrote:Why would you want to transfer.
Cause graduating from Harvard sounds a lot better than graduating from Berkeley. Plus, OP is going to have a good outcome either way. By staying at Berkeley, OP will be good. Transferring to Harvard as a top student from Berkeley, OP will still be good.
Graduating from Berkeley raises some eyebrows and people/lawyers will think you're smart or whatever, but people will think you're a genius if you graduate from S/H/Y. I'd do it if there's not a big change in debt.
being top of your class at a top school is better than being ttransfer at H/Y/S nine times out of ten
Re: Berkeley to S/Y/H?
Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:33 pm
by Top20TransferHopeful
dabigchina wrote:Top20TransferHopeful wrote:stretchedtoothin wrote:jbagelboy wrote:WheninLaw wrote:Why would you want to transfer.
Cause graduating from Harvard sounds a lot better than graduating from Berkeley. Plus, OP is going to have a good outcome either way. By staying at Berkeley, OP will be good. Transferring to Harvard as a top student from Berkeley, OP will still be good.
Graduating from Berkeley raises some eyebrows and people/lawyers will think you're smart or whatever, but people will think you're a genius if you graduate from S/H/Y. I'd do it if there's not a big change in debt.
I don't think I've ever heard of anybody scoffing at somebody from Cal.
I didn't say people scoff at Cal. But Cal certainly doesn't have the same reputation as HYS. At least when I think of Cal it doesn't.
Re: Berkeley to S/Y/H?
Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:54 pm
by run26.2
Top20TransferHopeful wrote:Graduating from Berkeley raises some eyebrows and people/lawyers will think you're smart or whatever, but people will think you're a genius if you graduate from S/H/Y. I'd do it if there's not a big change in debt.
While there is probably a bit of truth to this, after a few years, this stops mattering. And it's easy to dispel others' perceptions. Not a significant factor in making the change, IMO.
Re: Berkeley to S/Y/H?
Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:29 pm
by Biglaw1990
Top20TransferHopeful wrote:dabigchina wrote:Top20TransferHopeful wrote:stretchedtoothin wrote:jbagelboy wrote:WheninLaw wrote:Why would you want to transfer.
Cause graduating from Harvard sounds a lot better than graduating from Berkeley. Plus, OP is going to have a good outcome either way. By staying at Berkeley, OP will be good. Transferring to Harvard as a top student from Berkeley, OP will still be good.
Graduating from Berkeley raises some eyebrows and people/lawyers will think you're smart or whatever, but people will think you're a genius if you graduate from S/H/Y. I'd do it if there's not a big change in debt.
I don't think I've ever heard of anybody scoffing at somebody from Cal.
I didn't say people scoff at Cal. But Cal certainly doesn't have the same reputation as HYS. At least when I think of Cal it doesn't.
Aside from SCOTUS clerkships and academia positions, T14 graduates typically have the same opportunities in the private sector. Does Harvard have more name recognition? Yes. But I guarantee you that Cravath favors CLS or Berkeley grads who bill 2500+ annually to HLS associates who only bill 2200 a year. It really doesn't matter once you start at a firm. I know partners and former partners at firms who have told me that many of the HLS grads were dopes and were given the boot because they were incompetent. Firms care about productivity. More billable hours equates to higher revenue for firms. Going to top schools help you get into the door. Once you're there it is your work ethic and diligence that will help you advance. Your Tinder date might be more impressed with a Harvard degree than a Berkeley degree, but he or she is unlikely to be your employer. Top of the class at Berkeley likely has the same career opportunities as an HYS grad. As other posters have previously mentioned, you'll lose your edge if you transfer. You will be able to get an offer at just about any firm at OCI at Berkeley, whereas you'll be just another HYS student come OCI if you decide to transfer. Just my $.02
Re: Berkeley to S/Y/H?
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:47 am
by jbagelboy
Top20TransferHopeful wrote:stretchedtoothin wrote:jbagelboy wrote:WheninLaw wrote:Why would you want to transfer.
Cause graduating from Harvard sounds a lot better than graduating from Berkeley. Plus, OP is going to have a good outcome either way. By staying at Berkeley, OP will be good. Transferring to Harvard as a top student from Berkeley, OP will still be good.
Graduating from Berkeley raises some eyebrows and people/lawyers will think you're smart or whatever, but people will think you're a genius if you graduate from S/H/Y. I'd do it if there's not a big change in debt.
This is the kind of bad high school-level-reasoning post we used to see in 2007 when tls was a bunch of prestige chasing k-jds. Things have changed.
Lol if you think lawyers graduating from some group of three schools are geniuses or perceived as such as opposed to all the similar other ones. You're in for a rude awakening if you think going to any law school makes you a 'genius'. You're still just a lawyer. Once you start your job, you'll see how little it will matter.
There are good reasons to transfer, but this is not one of them.
Re: Berkeley to S/Y/H?
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:34 am
by GreekOmega12
If OP is paying sticker to attend Berkeley would it then be ok to transfer from the top?
Re: Berkeley to S/Y/H?
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:00 pm
by thricelawyer9
jbagelboy wrote:Top20TransferHopeful wrote:stretchedtoothin wrote:jbagelboy wrote:WheninLaw wrote:Why would you want to transfer.
Cause graduating from Harvard sounds a lot better than graduating from Berkeley. Plus, OP is going to have a good outcome either way. By staying at Berkeley, OP will be good. Transferring to Harvard as a top student from Berkeley, OP will still be good.
Graduating from Berkeley raises some eyebrows and people/lawyers will think you're smart or whatever, but people will think you're a genius if you graduate from S/H/Y. I'd do it if there's not a big change in debt.
This is the kind of bad high school-level-reasoning post we used to see in 2007 when tls was a bunch of prestige chasing k-jds. Things have changed.
Lol if you think lawyers graduating from some group of three schools are geniuses or perceived as such as opposed to all the similar other ones. You're in for a rude awakening if you think going to any law school makes you a 'genius'. You're still just a lawyer. Once you start your job, you'll see how little it will matter.
There are good reasons to transfer, but this is not one of them.
Don't feel bad about yourself cause you've been on TLS since 2007, bagel boy.
There's definitely reasons to transfer. Academia, bringing in clients, etc. And let's face it, prestige does matter in law. I don't think OP is going to have any problems getting any opportunity they want as a transfer. You think that firms are going to think "Oh this guy was top 3% at Cal, but he's a transfer student here so let's not hire him?" I don't think OP is going to lose any edge by transferring because they did so well at Berkeley.
All these arguments about lawyers wanting a high billing lawyer from Cal vs. a lazy student from HYS make no sense. OP is still going to bill the same number of hours regardless of where he goes to school. He's the same person.
Transferring will open more doors in your future than staying at Cal. Period.
Re: Berkeley to S/Y/H?
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:06 pm
by jbagelboy
The doors metaphor is probably the most blasphemous bullshit on these forums.
Fwiw I joined in 2012, I just know my history. Not that it matters. But I do know a lot more about legal hiring than you.
I'm not denying there are specific reasons a transfer makes sense--like wanting to become a legal academic, as you said. There's no generic advantage, however, to being an HLS transfer over a top student at Boalt. Probably the inverse.
Re: Berkeley to S/Y/H?
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:11 pm
by Clemenceau
OP hasn't mentioned anything about their goals that would justify a transfer. Can't even infer a geography argument bc their first pick is clearly Stanford.
Re: Berkeley to S/Y/H?
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:20 pm
by Biglaw1990
thricelawyer9 wrote:jbagelboy wrote:Top20TransferHopeful wrote:stretchedtoothin wrote:jbagelboy wrote:WheninLaw wrote:Why would you want to transfer.
Cause graduating from Harvard sounds a lot better than graduating from Berkeley. Plus, OP is going to have a good outcome either way. By staying at Berkeley, OP will be good. Transferring to Harvard as a top student from Berkeley, OP will still be good.
Graduating from Berkeley raises some eyebrows and people/lawyers will think you're smart or whatever, but people will think you're a genius if you graduate from S/H/Y. I'd do it if there's not a big change in debt.
This is the kind of bad high school-level-reasoning post we used to see in 2007 when tls was a bunch of prestige chasing k-jds. Things have changed.
Lol if you think lawyers graduating from some group of three schools are geniuses or perceived as such as opposed to all the similar other ones. You're in for a rude awakening if you think going to any law school makes you a 'genius'. You're still just a lawyer. Once you start your job, you'll see how little it will matter.
There are good reasons to transfer, but this is not one of them.
Don't feel bad about yourself cause you've been on TLS since 2007, bagel boy.
There's definitely reasons to transfer. Academia, bringing in clients, etc. And let's face it, prestige does matter in law. I don't think OP is going to have any problems getting any opportunity they want as a transfer. You think that firms are going to think "Oh this guy was top 3% at Cal, but he's a transfer student here so let's not hire him?" I don't think OP is going to lose any edge by transferring because they did so well at Berkeley.
All these arguments about lawyers wanting a high billing lawyer from Cal vs. a lazy student from HYS make no sense. OP is still going to bill the same number of hours regardless of where he goes to school. He's the same person.
Transferring will open more doors in your future than staying at Cal. Period.
No one said that OP will bill more hours if he stays at Cal. I was pointing out that billable hours and work product are what firms care about. Berkeley and HYS are both top schools and I highly doubt that HYS grads have an easier time bringing in business. How will transferring to HYS open more doors (aside from the marginal chance of landing a SCOTUS clerkship or academia)? Too many people regurgitate this statement and it is almost entirely unfounded (in terms of private sector employment). I highly suggest they you visit the "So you want to be a NYC corporate associate" and hear a top 10% HLS grad who's a V3 senior associate talk about his or her "special HYS options," or lack thereof.
Re: Berkeley to S/Y/H?
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:43 pm
by stretchedtoothin
GreekOmega12 wrote:If OP is paying sticker to attend Berkeley would it then be ok to transfer from the top?
Yeah, although most elite employers would probably pick top of the class B over a H transfer
Maybe that has more to do with institutional support, who knows
Re: Berkeley to S/Y/H?
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:01 pm
by plurilingue
Twenty comments later and nobody has actually responded to OP.
You can get an H or two and still be in range, but I would advise against it. I think three H is pushing it, though, since H grades are viewed more as B+ than A- on a traditional curve. AmJur helps a bit too since they are A+ grades.
You're clearly at the tippy top of the class at Boalt and these transfers have been done with these grades before. Often there are HYPS undergrads who end up at YHS transferring out of Boalt with these grades. And you will not see degraded opportunities at all with these grades to be clear. At least one such transfer I know ended up at one of the most selective firms in the country doing exactly this. My view is if you were at HLS or YLS you would be viewed as a top 10-15% student.
Re: Berkeley to S/Y/H?
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:07 pm
by thricelawyer9
jbagelboy wrote:The doors metaphor is probably the most blasphemous bullshit on these forums.
Fwiw I joined in 2012, I just know my history. Not that it matters. But I do know a lot more about legal hiring than you.
I'm not denying there are specific reasons a transfer makes sense--like wanting to become a legal academic, as you said. There's no generic advantage, however, to being an HLS transfer over a top student at Boalt. Probably the inverse.
Face it man. HYS >>>>> B. Any day of the week. Especially nationally. Don't settle by staying at some UC school when you have the opportunity to achieve true greatness. This is probably what bagelboy is so mad about.
Re: Berkeley to S/Y/H?
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:26 pm
by SLS_AMG
Top20TransferHopeful wrote:dabigchina wrote:Top20TransferHopeful wrote:stretchedtoothin wrote:jbagelboy wrote:WheninLaw wrote:Why would you want to transfer.
Cause graduating from Harvard sounds a lot better than graduating from Berkeley. Plus, OP is going to have a good outcome either way. By staying at Berkeley, OP will be good. Transferring to Harvard as a top student from Berkeley, OP will still be good.
Graduating from Berkeley raises some eyebrows and people/lawyers will think you're smart or whatever, but people will think you're a genius if you graduate from S/H/Y. I'd do it if there's not a big change in debt.
I don't think I've ever heard of anybody scoffing at somebody from Cal.
I didn't say people scoff at Cal. But Cal certainly doesn't have the same reputation as HYS. At least when I think of Cal it doesn't.
Good. The last thing Cal needs is you thinking highly of it. I love when people who got into none of the above schools try and sully the reputation of one and try and stratify the degrees of intelligence of people that are all worlds more intelligent than the poster him/herself.
Re: Berkeley to S/Y/H?
Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:28 pm
by Biglaw1990
thricelawyer9 wrote:jbagelboy wrote:The doors metaphor is probably the most blasphemous bullshit on these forums.
Fwiw I joined in 2012, I just know my history. Not that it matters. But I do know a lot more about legal hiring than you.
I'm not denying there are specific reasons a transfer makes sense--like wanting to become a legal academic, as you said. There's no generic advantage, however, to being an HLS transfer over a top student at Boalt. Probably the inverse.
Face it man. HYS >>>>> B. Any day of the week. Especially nationally. Don't settle by staying at some UC school when you have the opportunity to achieve true greatness. This is probably what bagelboy is so mad about.
In terms of prestige, yes. But An HYS degree does not lead to better outcomes in the private sector.