Top Law Schools

So I have only gotten 3 grades back (A-, A-, and B+). Assuming I get another B+ then I am in the top 3rd of the class and then assuming an A- is top 25 and A top 15%. Median at my school is 3.3.

I go to a T1 school in the South (UNC, Wake, Georgia, etc.). Do I stand a chance at transferring to either Duke or Penn if I reach top 25 or 15%.

If I don't decide to transfer, is it all over for me in terms of biglaw or other employment that could help finance my debt? I have pretty sizable debt about $80k after law school is done.

Really freaking out right now.

Anonymous User wrote:So I have only gotten 3 grades back (A-, A-, and B+). Assuming I get another B+ then I am in the top 3rd of the class and then assuming an A- is top 25 and A top 15%. Median at my school is 3.3.

I go to a T1 school in the South (UNC, Wake, Georgia, etc.). Do I stand a chance at transferring to either Duke or Penn if I reach top 25 or 15%.

If I don't decide to transfer, is it all over for me in terms of biglaw or other employment that could help finance my debt? I have pretty sizable debt about $80k after law school is done.

Really freaking out right now.

https://law.duke.edu/sites/default/file ... Report.pdf

Duke took 6 transfers last year: one from UNC, Emory, Houston, William & Mary, Washington University and Minnesota.

I don't know why you're freaking out before your second semester even begins. You could end up being at the very top of your class and crushing it at at OCI, or missing the b/l boat and locking up something else down the road to service that manageable debt load. You should probably chill and just relax before next semester

ETA: http://www.abarequireddisclosures.org/ Penn took like 15-16 from all over the place.

It's possible for you to transfer, but I'm not sure why you would. Like the poster above mentioned, you could end up doing well at OCI from your current school. Also, you'll probably end up in more debt if you transfer without a guarantee you'll get a big law job. Wait for all your grades to come out, see what type of 1L summer job you end up getting, and then start thinking about the pros/cons of transferring.

Thanks for all the responses. This is comforting. I feel like the general consensus on TLS is that if you don't go to a t-14 and you're not top 10 then you're screwed out of biglaw. Its nice to know there is still that option there.

Anonymous User wrote:So I have only gotten 3 grades back (A-, A-, and B+). Assuming I get another B+ then I am in the top 3rd of the class and then assuming an A- is top 25 and A top 15%. Median at my school is 3.3.

I go to a T1 school in the South (UNC, Wake, Georgia, etc.). Do I stand a chance at transferring to either Duke or Penn if I reach top 25 or 15%.

If I don't decide to transfer, is it all over for me in terms of biglaw or other employment that could help finance my debt? I have pretty sizable debt about $80k after law school is done.

Really freaking out right now.

Getting Duke or Penn at top 15% will be tough. Possible but not likely. Lower than that, I'd say it's not going to happen.

Anonymous User wrote:Thanks for all the responses. This is comforting. I feel like the general consensus on TLS is that if you don't go to a t-14 and you're not top 10 then you're screwed out of biglaw. Its nice to know there is still that option there.

That is mostly the case, although I would change top 10 to top 15. Also, if you are flexible on location, apply to all the DE firms. I know at least one of the Big 4 has a big pipeline from UNC and Wake and does not require ties.

eastcoast_iub wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Thanks for all the responses. This is comforting. I feel like the general consensus on TLS is that if you don't go to a t-14 and you're not top 10 then you're screwed out of biglaw. Its nice to know there is still that option there.

That is mostly the case, although I would change top 10 to top 15. Also, if you are flexible on location, apply to all the DE firms. I know at least one of the Big 4 has a big pipeline from UNC and Wake and does not require ties.

You don't need to be top 10% or even top 20% to cop biglaw from Vandy, UCLA, Emory . . .

OP also has an entire second semester to fuck up his grades or crush it, so all of this is pretty premature

Duke, yes. Penn, no. Penn is very odd about who they accept. You should try if it is your goal, but don't hold your breath on Penn. Also, try to get in the top 10 percent to lock in Duke. I was accepted to Duke as a transfer, and I was in the top 10 percent from a T1 (but not in the South).

Just keep your head down and focus on grades. I think you have a very good chance at Duke.

cheaptilts wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:So I have only gotten 3 grades back (A-, A-, and B+). Assuming I get another B+ then I am in the top 3rd of the class and then assuming an A- is top 25 and A top 15%. Median at my school is 3.3.

I go to a T1 school in the South (UNC, Wake, Georgia, etc.). Do I stand a chance at transferring to either Duke or Penn if I reach top 25 or 15%.

If I don't decide to transfer, is it all over for me in terms of biglaw or other employment that could help finance my debt? I have pretty sizable debt about $80k after law school is done.

Really freaking out right now.

https://law.duke.edu/sites/default/file ... Report.pdf

Duke took 6 transfers last year: one from UNC, Emory, Houston, William & Mary, Washington University and Minnesota.

I don't know why you're freaking out before your second semester even begins. You could end up being at the very top of your class and crushing it at at OCI, or missing the b/l boat and locking up something else down the road to service that manageable debt load. You should probably chill and just relax before next semester

ETA: http://www.abarequireddisclosures.org/ Penn took like 15-16 from all over the place.

I would like to see how many people were accepted by Duke and did not attend. I think that those who blanket the T14 and get accepted to Duke and others, end up going elsewhere. This is only based on my personal experience and the experience of a few friends. We all blanketed the T10, we were accepted at several schools, and nobody chose Duke. My reason was unique in that my G.I. Bill didn't go far at Duke. Others wanted to be in NYC or out West and chose NYU or Boalt. Both of those schools accept a lot of transfers and are in prime markets. The idea of transferring to Duke is that you are competing for a market to which you aren't close in proximity (NYC or DC), or you want to stay in the South. At the time, I would have chosen Duke over Boalt if they were more accepting of the G.I. Bill. I like NC, but most people don't share my sentiment.

I might be outing myself but I go to school in North Carolina, thus Duke is the best option for me. If I am top 15% or 25% this semester is it possible to sneak into the top 10 after next semester?

Anonymous User wrote:I might be outing myself but I go to school in North Carolina, thus Duke is the best option for me. If I am top 15% or 25% this semester is it possible to sneak into the top 10 after next semester?

Mathematically, if you are at X percentile now, at the very best it is possible to get into the (X/2) percentile after next semester. So you will need to be top 20% at the end of this semester if you want a chance for top 10% after 1L.


Ask a dumb question, get a dumb answer.

eastcoast_iub wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Thanks for all the responses. This is comforting. I feel like the general consensus on TLS is that if you don't go to a t-14 and you're not top 10 then you're screwed out of biglaw. Its nice to know there is still that option there.

That is mostly the case, although I would change top 10 to top 15. Also, if you are flexible on location, apply to all the DE firms. I know at least one of the Big 4 has a big pipeline from UNC and Wake and does not require ties.

I'd add that at UNC not enough people target NYC firms—many seem to limit themselves to one or two markets. If you take advantage of the job fairs that are available (particularly NYC and Texas, also Atlanta) and don't limit yourself by location (applying to places like DE and Birmingham), you can land a decent job. I've even seen some people with similar stats and not on LR get old-line NC firms like Brooks Pierce, but they're definitely the exception, not the rule. It's early yet, and you still haven't even begun second semester, but when it comes time for the journal write-on, don't slack off. Getting LR on your resume is a huge leg up.

Also, if your goal is a good private firm job in NC, I'm not sure how much transferring to Duke will really help you. This should be taken into account alongside of the fact that you'll be taking on significant additional debt, whereas $80k is a pretty manageable debt load.

kartelite wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:I might be outing myself but I go to school in North Carolina, thus Duke is the best option for me. If I am top 15% or 25% this semester is it possible to sneak into the top 10 after next semester?

Mathematically, if you are at X percentile now, at the very best it is possible to get into the (X/2) percentile after next semester. So you will need to be top 20% at the end of this semester if you want a chance for top 10% after 1L.


Ask a dumb question, get a dumb answer.

That may be a dumb answer, but probably not for the reason you thought. It's not mathematically sound; grade distributions aren't linear.

The best OP can do is whatever the class ranking would be for a GPA equal to [(FallGPA*FallHours + 4.0*SpringHours)/total 1L hours]. (Assuming OP's school doesn't have A+ -- but even if it does, OP should probably only count on a possible max of A's in the spring; and really without pulling down an A this semester, can't reasonably count on that). If the spring hours are the same as the fall hours, it's as simple as FallGPA/2 + 2.0.

If OP finishes the fall with a 3.5, assuming an equal number of hours in the spring, OP could have a 3.75 max. Assuming the same number of hours per class, OP has told us that a 3.5 is 25%* and 3.6 is top 15%*. With a distribution like that, a 3.75 would be higher than 12.5%. (According to the MyLSN Class Rank estimator, where a 3.3 is 50% and a 3.5 is 25%, a 3.75 is 6.5%)

ETA: Looking back at the OP, I may have used the wrong grade distributions, but then there were assumptions about grade weight in there as well so odds are my grade distributions wouldn't have been correct anyway. The math, however, stands. Also, speaking from experience, I halved my percentile standing from fall to spring with an approximately A- spring GPA.

When would it make sense to transfer from a T1? So long as that T1 has decent BigLaw placement, at what point should OP consider transferring? Doesn't only HYS make sense?

BVest wrote:That may be a dumb answer, but probably not for the reason you thought. It's not mathematically sound; grade distributions aren't linear.

The best OP can do is whatever the class ranking would be for a GPA equal to [(FallGPA*FallHours + 4.0*SpringHours)/total 1L hours]. (Assuming OP's school doesn't have A+ -- but even if it does, OP should probably only count on a possible max of A's in the spring; and really without pulling down an A this semester, can't reasonably count on that). If the spring hours are the same as the fall hours, it's as simple as FallGPA/2 + 2.0.

If OP finishes the fall with a 3.5, assuming an equal number of hours in the spring, OP could have a 3.75 max. Assuming the same number of hours per class, OP has told us that a 3.5 is 25%* and 3.6 is top 15%*. With a distribution like that, a 3.75 would be higher than 12.5%. (According to the MyLSN Class Rank estimator, where a 3.3 is 50% and a 3.5 is 25%, a 3.75 is 6.5%)

ETA: Looking back at the OP, I may have used the wrong grade distributions, but then there were assumptions about grade weight in there as well so odds are my grade distributions wouldn't have been correct anyway. The math, however, stands. Also, speaking from experience, I halved my percentile standing from fall to spring with an approximately A- spring GPA.

The simplest explanation of it is, as you mentioned, the non-linearity of grade distributions; but it's also driven by regression to the mean, which affects both the non-linearity of semester GPA as compared to distribution within a single course and the GPA needed to hit top 10% after one semester compared to top 10% after two (assuming there is no perfect correlation between student grades in the two semesters, while the "average" GPA is the same, the standard deviation will be smaller).

The strength of correlation of grades between classes, as well as the distribution densities of each numerical grade in a class, will pretty much completely determine the potential to improve one's class rank from one semester to the next (there is obviously some stochasticity but with a large enough class size the effect should be negligible, but in a small class to be accurate you'd actually want to do a multinominal model rather than derive its continuous approximation, so class size would actually be a variable in this case...though the analytic solution could get long quick and there's a range of class (entire class, assuming individual sections are basically the same) sizes that would probably best be done by Monte Carlo simulation. Like if you only have 3 students, you could calculate the entire universe of different outcomes quite easily, but this would be basically impossible with 200 students, but here a continuous approximation would work quite well. But if you had maybe 20 students it could still be computationally too intensive but the approximation may not be great yet either, and so enter Monte Carlo).

Curious what the reason you thought I meant was?

I thought the reason you meant was that the question was overly simplistic and therefore you were going to give an overly simplistic, albeit defensibly correct, answer. I didn't think you knew the answer to be completely wrong but were going to post it anyway just to be obnoxious.

BVest wrote:I thought the reason you meant was that the question was overly simplistic and therefore you were going to give an overly simplistic, albeit defensibly correct, answer. I didn't think you knew the answer to be completely wrong but were going to post it anyway just to be obnoxious.

Well rather than obnoxious let's just call it sardonic, or at least no worse than a lot of the sarcasm on these boards. I mean, the question was just...I don't know, devoid of any understanding of basic math, certainly not befitting someone with good grades at a T1 law school, so it seemed a reply of a similar caliber was warranted. I was pretty sure that was transparent enough not to be taken seriously, but I included the mini-font disclaimer to remove all doubt.

I understand basic math. My question honestly did not ask for any calculations at all...I simply was asking if I stood a good chance at Duke or Penn if I was able to maintain within the top 15-25% of the class at either UNC or Wake.

Thanks though.

.

wolfie_m. wrote:

kartelite wrote:Well rather than obnoxious let's just call it sardonic, or at least no worse than a lot of the sarcasm on these boards. I mean, the question was just...I don't know, devoid of any understanding of basic math, certainly not befitting someone with good grades at a T1 law school, so it seemed a reply of a similar caliber was warranted. I was pretty sure that was transparent enough not to be taken seriously, but I included the mini-font disclaimer to remove all doubt.

lol wut

Three dependent clauses too much for you to follow? Given the apparent scope of your vernacular that doesn't surprise me.

So, got my last grade back which was an A-

Like I said in my first post, that puts me around the top 20% of my class. Any chance of transferring anywhere within the top 10 now? I know that I can't compete with all the As on TLS haha, but still trying to remain hopeful.

Please provide some insight. Trying to gun for biglaw, is that possible if I stay at my current school and keep the same rank next semester?

Cerberaus wrote:Duke, yes. Penn, no. Penn is very odd about who they accept. You should try if it is your goal, but don't hold your breath on Penn. Also, try to get in the top 10 percent to lock in Duke. I was accepted to Duke as a transfer, and I was in the top 10 percent from a T1 (but not in the South).

Just keep your head down and focus on grades. I think you have a very good chance at Duke.

What makes Penn odd about who they accept? Sorry to creepily reply like two months later, but I'm thinking of applying to Penn (to transfer) and am curious about my chances.

I too apologize for replying a month later; I don't really check forums during finals. As for Penn...

Despite the fact that my numbers fit Penn's acceptance and the fact that I went to undergrad in the state, they rejected me without a second thought. Also, I know of individuals who got into higher (Harvard, CHI, NYU, CLS) or closely ranked schools (Duke, Boalt), but were rejected from Penn (apologies if I mentioned this before). Here is what I know about Penn based upon anecdotal evidence and the Standard 509 Reports:

1. Penn accepts a very small, but select group of individuals.
2. All but one student that matriculated was from the East Coast or surrounding Midwest area. Area might trump the school's name given that the schools from where students transferred were neither very high nor very low. Again, we don't know who applied and decided to go elsewhere. Maybe they accepted people from decent CA schools, but those students chose Berkeley or Stanford instead.
3. My impression from Penn when I spoke to their admin was that they had already selected their candidates based upon area. Twice when I called, I was asked why I'd want to move back East.

To lock in Penn, I would advise having both grades and real ties to the state. Granted, I had undergrad; but I also had a ten year break between law school and undergrad without any further dealings in PA. Also, I wonder if they are critical of taking people who applied to several other East Coast or West Coast schools.

Cerberaus wrote:To lock in Penn, I would advise having both grades and real ties to the state. Granted, I had undergrad; but I also had a ten year break between law school and undergrad without any further dealings in PA. Also, I wonder if they are critical of taking people who applied to several other East Coast or West Coast schools.

Having ties is probably the safe bet. Although, to add my own anecdotal experience here, I was accepted to UPenn and I had never stepped foot in the state, nor did I have any ties whatsoever to the east coast. With that said, they do take fewer transfers than their peers and I think the interview is a really important part of their process. So if you're not from the state or have any ties there, be prepared to answer some pretty pointed questions as to Why Penn? if you get the opportunity to interview.