Transferring to T6 schools - it worth it? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I was admitted transfer to some T6 schools. I'm currently ranked 1st at my T40 school, on law review, and on a very significant scholarship (probably won't have any law school debt when I graduate). My school places pretty well into big law in the market I want to work in, I have regional ties, and I'm pretty well networked there. If I transfer, I will be paying a lot more (probably no cost of living increase) and won't have law review. Is it worth the huge cost increase if I'm just interested in big law right now?

[jphiggo]

If your current school already places well in the market you want to work in, it is not a bad decision to forgo transferring (and the debt).

[thesealocust]

That's a tough one. You're very likely to get biglaw without moving, and your school + professors are likely to leverage their connections very strongly for you. Being #1 is huge - employers will be very impressed whether you transfer or not.

Honestly, if you like your current school (profs/geography/social situation) and have money, I would stay put. Transferring doesn't really do any magic except get you more interviews, and those shouldn't be hard to get with your stats. If you don't get the gig you want, it's more likely because you were a bad fit or blew the interview or something - just completing the transfer process is rarely seen as a huge bump in and of itself for the hiring process that will happen before you've done anything at the new school.

If you hate your school, are looking for a different market that a T6 is in, or have very narrow ambitions, transferring could make sense. I really do think being #1 is kind of magic, if you were top 5% or top 10% the calculus might be skewed. Being able to say you were the top of the class is going to open doors.

If you do stay, be sure to mail applications to firms more broadly than you otherwise would. Some excellent firms, like Sullivan & Cromwell, may not normally do OCI at your school - but absolutely love hiring the top of the class even outside of their usual target school range.

[Elston Gunn]

I don't understand why you would even think about transferring in this situation unless you're really unhappy with your school or really want a different market.

[kaiser]

I was admitted transfer to some T6 schools. I'm currently ranked 1st at my T40 school, on law review, and on a very significant scholarship (probably won't have any law school debt when I graduate). My school places pretty well into big law in the market I want to work in, I have regional ties, and I'm pretty well networked there. If I transfer, I will be paying a lot more (probably no cost of living increase) and won't have law review. Is it worth the huge cost increase if I'm just interested in big law right now?

No way should you leave if ranked #1 and on big scholarship. It would be a different story if you were paying sticker or something. You will have your pick of jobs come OCI, your school already places well into your market of choice, you will have pretty much no debt. I mean, could your situation be any more ideal? Not worth the huge cost increase at all given your spot. You "won" the game, now just enjoy the ride.

[TTtop13pct]

grats on #1. Crush OCI, then get your fed clerkship. Those are very likely for you now. Transfer and fed clerkship is up in the air again.

[philepistemer]

I could understand transferring to the top law school, but even going to h or s would be a mistake here IMO. I think #1 at a decent school is special because it can appear to employers and judges that your ability is uncapped, whereas pretty much all transfers to H will be viewed as just another H student at best.

[barkschool]

grats on #1. Crush OCI, then get your fed clerkship. Those are very likely for you now. Transfer and fed clerkship is up in the air again.

[Longtimecoming19]

Let us know if you get into Yale. If so, maybe you should transfer. If not, staying put makes a lot of sense.

[Other25BeforeYou]

I think this can really go either way. Everyone is saying that being number one is a huge deal, and it absolutely is (congrats!), but it's also a potentially fleeting huge deal. There is no guarantee you will still be first in your class when you apply for clerkships if you choose to do so. If something goes awry with the economy or the firm you choose or your summer experience and you get no offered, there's no guarantee you'll still be first in your class at 3L OCI, and a Harvard degree probably goes a lot further than a top 10% T40 degree on the open market. All it takes is getting the flu during one exam period. I know numerous people who dropped from the top 1-2% of the class after 1L year.

Based purely on my experience with lateraling as a third-year associate, it seems that no one knows/cares what your grades or class rank were after your first year, they care about where in the class you were when you graduated. You don't know where you'll be yet. So I think it comes down to whether avoiding the risk that you'll drop and it will impact your career is worth two years of tuition at a T6 (a very, very steep price). I think this can really go either way depending on how comfortable you are with that risk. Good luck!

[DerekZoolander]

I'm thinking it makes more sense in my situation, OP. I'm top 5 percent at my school in T2 and going to go to a T6 school.

It's a different ballgame when you're getting money and are #1 at your T1 school. That's a strong position.

[Gamecockfan]

I think this can really go either way. Everyone is saying that being number one is a huge deal, and it absolutely is (congrats!), but it's also a potentially fleeting huge deal. There is no guarantee you will still be first in your class when you apply for clerkships if you choose to do so. If something goes awry with the economy or the firm you choose or your summer experience and you get no offered, there's no guarantee you'll still be first in your class at 3L OCI, and a Harvard degree probably goes a lot further than a top 10% T40 degree on the open market. All it takes is getting the flu during one exam period. I know numerous people who dropped from the top 1-2% of the class after 1L year.

Based purely on my experience with lateraling as a third-year associate, it seems that no one knows/cares what your grades or class rank were after your first year, they care about where in the class you were when you graduated. You don't know where you'll be yet. So I think it comes down to whether avoiding the risk that you'll drop and it will impact your career is worth two years of tuition at a T6 (a very, very steep price). I think this can really go either way depending on how comfortable you are with that risk. Good luck!

I'll just point out that there are definitely benefits to being a part of the Harvard or Yale club. Check out appoints to the supreme court, CEOs, etc. Most high profile positions are Harvard or Yale.

Doesn't mean you can't live a good life without it. But it's something to consider.

[thesealocust]

I'll just point out that there are definitely benefits to being a part of the Harvard or Yale club. Check out appoints to the supreme court, CEOs, etc. Most high profile positions are Harvard or Yale.

This is a much better (and uncontroversial) argument for going to a T6 school in the first place than it is for transferring to one. By far the biggest impact your law school has on your career comes from its ability to get you the first job out of law school. The name on your diploma means less and less as time goes by - once your boots are on the ground, the school you went to really won't matter. Network matters, but that will be harder to key into as a transfer, and the transfer choice will have little or no impact on your ability to leverage the network from your first jobs out of law school.

[Gamecockfan]

I'll just point out that there are definitely benefits to being a part of the Harvard or Yale club. Check out appoints to the supreme court, CEOs, etc. Most high profile positions are Harvard or Yale.

This is a much better (and uncontroversial) argument for going to a T6 school in the first place than it is for transferring to one. By far the biggest impact your law school has on your career comes from its ability to get you the first job out of law school. The name on your diploma means less and less as time goes by - once your boots are on the ground, the school you went to really won't matter. Network matters, but that will be harder to key into as a transfer, and the transfer choice will have little or no impact on your ability to leverage the network from your first jobs out of law school.

I feel like there is very little risk in transferring to HYS. You don't even need a network because you are automatically at the top of the heap for every job. He is going to be showing #1 from I am going to guess Fordham because he said COL won't go up. He should have absolutely no trouble getting a big law job from HYS. Further, his long-term prospects increase exponentially. If he repeats what he has done and does close to as well at HYS, then he will be infinitely more set then he would have been at his old school. He will have judicial, academic, and business opportunities that he otherwise wouldn't have. The only real issue here is debt. If he has the tolerance for the debt to obtain those intangible benefits of flexibility, then he should do it. If he doesn't, then he should stay. Of course, people can do everything I said from any school. But the law of averages favors the move to HYS over staying to achieve those things.

[thesealocust]

I feel like there is very little risk in transferring to HYS.

I agree.

He should have absolutely no trouble getting a big law job from HYS.

Well, the 1L performance won't hold him back. It's not all about grades; every year some people with better credentials struggle. I take your point though.

Further, his long-term prospects increase exponentially.

False. Bullshit.

If he repeats what he has done and does close to as well at HYS, then he will be infinitely more set then he would have been at his old school. He will have judicial, academic, and business opportunities that he otherwise wouldn't have.

False. Not quite bullshit, because certainly it will be a different set of opportunities, but "infinitely more"? Nope.

I've been an attorney for three years, I've worked with people from a pretty big mix of schools, and seen a lot of career trajectories. Once you've nabbed your first job, the name on the diploma really doesn't push you places you couldn't have gotten based on your work and your network. I'm sure there are exceptions (especially for clerking, academia, and some government positions), but the appeal of attending a top school largely boils down to how well you have to perform as a 1L to get a good first job. Once you've walked across the stage three years later, it shouldn't be shocking that your abilities as an attorney, your work experience, and the way you connect with other attorneys and clients winds up shaping your career path.

Put another way: the people I worked with from "lesser" schools weren't having doors slammed in their face, and the people I worked with from HYS weren't being propelled through their careers on the force of the name of their law school.

[Gamecockfan]

I feel like there is very little risk in transferring to HYS.

I agree.

He should have absolutely no trouble getting a big law job from HYS.

Well, the 1L performance won't hold him back. It's not all about grades; every year some people with better credentials struggle. I take your point though.

Further, his long-term prospects increase exponentially.

False. Bullshit.

If he repeats what he has done and does close to as well at HYS, then he will be infinitely more set then he would have been at his old school. He will have judicial, academic, and business opportunities that he otherwise wouldn't have.

False. Not quite bullshit, because certainly it will be a different set of opportunities, but "infinitely more"? Nope.

I've been an attorney for three years, I've worked with people from a pretty big mix of schools, and seen a lot of career trajectories. Once you've nabbed your first job, the name on the diploma really doesn't push you places you couldn't have gotten based on your work and your network. I'm sure there are exceptions (especially for clerking, academia, and some government positions), but the appeal of attending a top school largely boils down to how well you have to perform as a 1L to get a good first job. Once you've walked across the stage three years later, it shouldn't be shocking that your abilities as an attorney, your work experience, and the way you connect with other attorneys and clients winds up shaping your career path.

Put another way: the people I worked with from "lesser" schools weren't having doors slammed in their face, and the people I worked with from HYS weren't being propelled through their careers on the force of the name of their law school.

9 presidents and 6 Vice Presidents went to Harvard or Yale. Everyone on the Supreme Court went to Harvard or Yale. I can't find the exact stat anymore, but I believe I saw that Goldman Sachs last five CEOs came from Harvard. I'm sure there are a ton of examples of this kind of thing.

In the legal world it may not make a difference, but it will if he wants to do anything outside the legal world. The flexibility is something that makes it worth considering.

[thesealocust]

9 presidents and 6 Vice Presidents went to Harvard or Yale. Everyone on the Supreme Court went to Harvard or Yale.

Holy shit I had no idea -- thanks for enlightening myself and everyone else reading

Since Obama's class, something like 13,000 others have graduated from Harvard law. Maybe they'll take solace in the fact that they have better odds at the Supreme Court?

Harvard (and Yale and Stanford) are fabulous schools that produce tremendous alumni - nobody is arguing there. The question is much narrower though: what benefits accrue to somebody in OP's position by transferring to one of those schools vs. staying put? All the evidence I've seen suggests the answer is little if any.

Tremendous people go to the best schools and then do tremendous things - to the extent the school or its network makes those results more likely, it's not nearly as much of a factor once the first year is done. The people that I know who have transferred to HYS have by and large gone on to careers totally predictable by their performance at their original school, and often paid through the nose for that privilege.

[CanadianWolf]

OP: This is a very significant decision that calls for more than just guessing at which is your current law school & to which T-6 law schools you have been accepted.

P.S. I doubt that you are a student at Fordham since you referenced "regional ties" in your original post in this thread. If you are at BC or BU & have been accepted to Chicago & Columbia, I'll bet that the responses so far would likely change based upon that information. Also, financial aid comes into play with the top 3 law schools, so that you're acceptances are probably Columbia & either Chicago or NYU. Just guessing, however, because not enough information has been shared. Your current law school is aware of your transfer applications, so why not share more specifics ? But I think a safe guess is that Harvard, Yale & Stanford are not among your transfer options at this time.

[Anonymous User]

OP here - I'm considering leaving to H, but I don't think I would qualify for much financial aid there, and I can't find out before I make a choice.

[Gamecockfan]

OP here - I'm considering leaving to H, but I don't think I would qualify for much financial aid there, and I can't find out before I make a choice.

Need the school you're coming from. As Canadianwolf said it changes the responses.