What kind of grades needed for a lateral transfer? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I know this sounds bad, but I am a 1L at a t-20 school. I am not happy where I am at and started law school here because I got a good scholarship and didnt have a good job lined up if I wasn't going to go.

All of that aside, what kind of grades would I need to transfer to, say a UCLA, Georgetown, or Northwestern? Without giving away too much information, my current school is ranked just below these, but in the top 20. I just do not like being in the location I am currently in. Thank you.

[DoveBodyWash]

lol if this school is WUSTL, PM me.

You'll need to be top third for GULC and NU. Dunno about UCLA

[sublime]

..

[DoveBodyWash]

lol if this school is WUSTL, PM me.

You'll need to be top third for GULC and NU. Dunno about UCLA

No fucking way. We had people transfer "higher" at median.

I have heard it is really easy to get into NU and GULC, although not worth the cost, imo.

haha i think NU is more selective than Michigan..but yeah i guess you could probably go to GULC at median because they take so many. But NU is a very popular target in the transfer market so i still think u need to be top third for them. Their placement outperforms their "rank", and if you want to practice in Chicago, UChicago and NU are your only real options unless you have ties or something. Whether it's worth the cost is an open question obviously

[Big Dog]

can you withdraw and reapply? If you got money at a T20, you would likely get some from UCLA as a 1L, but zero as a transfer.

if you want to practice in Chicago, UChicago and NU are your only real options unless you have ties or something.

Without ties, Chicago is a tough market even from NU and UChicago.

[Lemurian]

I'm curious about this as well. I'm currently at a pretty good school (just outside T25) and may have to consider a transfer to a similarly ranked school for location reasons, and came here wondering what is usually required in order to achieve that. Most of the topics here seem to be on transferring to a T14 or T20 from a much lower ranked school, without much information on a "lateral" transfer.

[DoveBodyWash]

If we said "median is fine" then would you work just hard enough to get median and then stop? I understand that you want to transfer for location, but the purpose of your grades is to get you a job. Lets say you can lateral transfer to a T30 in your preferred location with median grades, it would be a bad move even if you got in because you're not getting a job out of the new school with median credentials.

The reason you don't see threads discussing "lateral transfers" is because it's generally a useless exercise for those who don't have other options and an irrelevant option for those that have better options. Get the best grades you can get and then look at your transfer options.

[Lemurian]

Fair.

I don't intend on working any less hard, as I intend to be good at what I do, and slacking off to hit the median wouldn't achieve that result. It's just been a weird time lately and mind's been restless about this, so I figured it wouldn't hurt to get details and quiet the storm, so to speak.

[DoveBodyWash]

Fair.

I don't intend on working any less hard, as I intend to be good at what I do, and slacking off to hit the median wouldn't achieve that result. It's just been a weird time lately and mind's been restless about this, so I figured it wouldn't hurt to get details and quiet the storm, so to speak.

well in the interest of quieting the storm, i think top third is probably safe for a lateral transfer unless there's some weird YP situation. If you're coming from a T25 then top third would get u to GULC/NU probably as well.

ETA: Three people from my first school (T20) got into Michigan with median grades. Not sure how much you can extrapolate from that but figured it was worth mentioning

[tuhaybey]

I know this sounds bad, but I am a 1L at a t-20 school. I am not happy where I am at and started law school here because I got a good scholarship and didnt have a good job lined up if I wasn't going to go.

All of that aside, what kind of grades would I need to transfer to, say a UCLA, Georgetown, or Northwestern? Without giving away too much information, my current school is ranked just below these, but in the top 20. I just do not like being in the location I am currently in. Thank you.

I transferred from a T-20 school to top 5 school and I regretted it. I ended up with radically more debt, and basically having the kinds of grades you need to have to transfer at a T-20 school gives you some cool options without having to transfer.

Think of it like this. Say that the job you get from a T-20 with very good grades pays $120k and the job you get from biglaw if you transfer pays $160k. But, say that you take on an extra $120k in debt. That's after taxes and there is interest, so that's like $200k more in income you need. You won't be back to even until you've worked in biglaw for like 5 years. And working in biglaw is sheer hell. IMO, you'll have a much more enjoyable life working somewhere other than biglaw for $120k for those 5 years and by the time you've worked for 5 years, what school you went to is no longer so important, especially if you were T-20 to start with.

Also, life as a transfer kind of sucks. You don't have a section, so that is kind of isolating. Whatever it is that you don't like about your school, the other law schools are probably more like that than you would think too. And, I actually found that the education I got at the lower ranked school was much better. Professors there had books about learning styles and education techniques on their shelves along with their subject area books. They were often passionate about students and got a real kick out of seeing them figure things out. Professors in the top school are often just annoyed that they have to take a break from writing to deal with students at all and they basically just stand in front of the class reading through an outline they wrote up 15 years ago...

Anyways, to answer your question, you need very good grades to transfer up. Probably around an A average or just a smidge below.

Do not actually transfer laterally. The costs of a lateral transfer are significant and the benefits are zero. The advice I got was that in the T-20, you should never transfer unless you move up at least 10 spots in the ranks and frankly I think even then it was a pretty questionable call to do it.

[Lemurian]

Do not actually transfer laterally. The costs of a lateral transfer are significant and the benefits are zero. The advice I got was that in the T-20, you should never transfer unless you move up at least 10 spots in the ranks and frankly I think even then it was a pretty questionable call to do it.

But what about if you have to change location to a different area of the country? Are the chances of finding a job outside your school's regional market good enough to make it a smart choice to stay there?

[tuhaybey]

But what about if you have to change location to a different area of the country? Are the chances of finding a job outside your school's regional market good enough to make it a smart choice to stay there?

That's a fair point. Maybe there are situations where you would want to transfer laterally within the T-20 in order to get into a different regional market.

If you're in a T-14 school, I wouldn't worry about it. If you get good grades, you can go to any region from a T-14 school.

But, jumping regions from some of the schools at the bottom of the T-20 is harder. Like maybe if you're at Vanderbilt or Emory and don't like the south, or at Minnesota and don't like the midwest, you might want to transfer to GW, UCLA or USC or similar for more options region-wise. I could see that.

That said, this all really just comes down to your grades no matter what way you go. Good grades gets you out of the region if you stay and good grades opens up transferring options. Bad grades makes it harder to get out of the region. IMO, once you have your first semester grades, your options will be clearer.

[MarkfromWI]

I transferred from a T-20 school to top 5 school and I regretted it.
...
Also, life as a transfer kind of sucks. You don't have a section, so that is kind of isolating. Whatever it is that you don't like about your school, the other law schools are probably more like that than you would think too. And, I actually found that the education I got at the lower ranked school was much better. Professors there had books about learning styles and education techniques on their shelves along with their subject area books. They were often passionate about students and got a real kick out of seeing them figure things out. Professors in the top school are often just annoyed that they have to take a break from writing to deal with students at all and they basically just stand in front of the class reading through an outline they wrote up 15 years ago...

Anyways, to answer your question, you need very good grades to transfer up. Probably around an A average or just a smidge below.

Do not actually transfer laterally. The costs of a lateral transfer are significant and the benefits are zero. The advice I got was that in the T-20, you should never transfer unless you move up at least 10 spots in the ranks and frankly I think even then it was a pretty questionable call to do it.

Granted, I transferred from a private TTT to my home state flagship so I'm not necessarily qualified to comment on your T-20 lateral move, but for what it's worth I thought I'd chime in to say that I really do have to agree with the bolded above. My experience as a transfer thus far has been isolating. Even if you've never really had a hard time making friends in the past, don't underestimated how difficult it might be to break into the social circles that form during 1L. Also, to echo the teaching point, I've already had a professor in her office refuse to answer a question because she "reserves Tuesdays for research."

Not that making friends and office hours are important criteria when picking a law school...

[DoveBodyWash]

i have not had trouble making friends as a transfer...I get that it varies by school and by year. The transfers at my old school seemed to have trouble assimilating. But thus far I haven't had any trouble...(1) my transfer class is awesome and we're all close (2) the native students have been pretty welcoming and we drink/hangout with them just the same. I transferred to a pretty small school though so everyone knows each other to a degree and you see the same people in your classes so it's not hard to make friends.

I do agree that the professors don't necessarily seem as interested in actually making sure that we understand the material though. Not sure if that's function of the professors or just because there's less hand-holding in general for 2L/3L classes.

[sublime]

..

[tuhaybey]

I transferred to a pretty small school though so everyone knows each other to a degree and you see the same people in your classes

That's interesting. I bet that is the key right there.

[patogordo]

the key is to avoid making friends with other transfers

[Lemurian]

That said, this all really just comes down to your grades no matter what way you go. Good grades gets you out of the region if you stay

Can more people weigh in on this? What I've heard from my CSO is that I'll have no problem going anywhere, and what I've heard here has been very doom-and-gloom (as seems to be the norm) "you'll never find a job outside your region unless you're T14". I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle.

[tuhaybey]

Can more people weigh in on this? What I've heard from my CSO is that I'll have no problem going anywhere, and what I've heard here has been very doom-and-gloom (as seems to be the norm) "you'll never find a job outside your region unless you're T14". I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Just to clarify, I was talking about if you're in a T-20 school. I think I was thinking you were the OP. If you're not in a T-20 school, yes, you need to going to school in the region you're in.

If you are in the T-20, the higher the school is ranked, the lower the bar for your grades if you want to switch regions. At a top 5 school, the bottom 10% of the class can still go to any region. At a T-14 (but not top 5) school, probably the top 50% of the class can change regions. At a T-20 (but not T-14) school, more like the top 20% can switch regions. Then maybe if you're in the next 20 or so schools, you'd better be one of the very top students if you want to change regions.

It is actually a little more nuanced than that though. Some schools have more portability than others despite similar rankings. Also, if the firm has an office in your region and an office in the region you want to go to, that helps because if the firm is talking to graduates of your school, you can potentially interview for a different office. So, being in a school in any major market gives you more options.

That's my impression anyways. Maybe others have different views.

[Lemurian]

Is that in general, or for big law jobs? Would it be easier if I'm not gunning for a big law/high-paying position?

[tuhaybey]

Is that in general, or for big law jobs? Would it be easier if I'm not gunning for a big law/high-paying position?

I'm not really sure. It isn't necessarily the case that there is less competition for lower paying positions. To some extent, the market for biglaw jobs and the market for other legal jobs are totally separate markets and the ratio of applicants to jobs is higher in the latter market.

[MagicMike80]

Lemurian:

The move you're considering - front 25-t30 up to DNCG (or t20) may be a tough one if you don't have phenomenal grades. Not that you won't get in, but your above-average-while-never-piercing-stellar grades will raise some eyebrows at the new school. A transfer from a school the firm has likely heard of showing up that other OCI could lead to the interviewer assessing the merits of your recent (expensive) decision out loud and not understanding cost/benefit analysis the same way. This happened to a friend of mine who went from a T-20 to MVPB. She's currently still looking.

Also consider the market you're leaving and the market you're going to. Whether transferring into the t14 or not, market makes a big difference. Penn told me point blank to go to Berkeley if i wanted a job in Southern (not Northern) California. I also think the willingness to jump markets for law school puts some less secure-feeling firms on notice they are dealing with someone who will rearrange their life when they get the appropriate opportunity. IF those firms are coming from second tier markets and know that you are hedging with New York, could spell trouble.

As to those left behind at your old school....the only consistent destination outside of the region every school can stake a claim to in New York. If you want to work in Big Law and are dead set against new york, transferring is essential, because all the shining beacons of the T20-40 are in the big apple, with a few exceptions.

[Lemurian]

Lemurian:

Also consider the market you're leaving and the market you're going to. Whether transferring into the t14 or not, market makes a big difference. Penn told me point blank to go to Berkeley if i wanted a job in Southern (not Northern) California. I also think the willingness to jump markets for law school puts some less secure-feeling firms on notice they are dealing with someone who will rearrange their life when they get the appropriate opportunity. IF those firms are coming from second tier markets and know that you are hedging with New York, could spell trouble.

As to those left behind at your old school....the only consistent destination outside of the region every school can stake a claim to in New York. If you want to work in Big Law and are dead set against new york, transferring is essential, because all the shining beacons of the T20-40 are in the big apple, with a few exceptions.

Just for some more details on my own situation that could give you a better idea, my willingness to jump markets isn't based on a whim or flight of fancy, it's for personal reasons, and would be long term. I also don't want big law OR New York, so.. there's that I guess.

[ManoftheHour]

I just do not like being in the location I am currently in.

All of that aside, what kind of grades would I need to transfer to, say a UCLA

my current school is ranked just below these, but in the top 20

Watch, OP is at USC.