HLS Transfer Forum

[Anonymous User]

I'm currently around the 1-3% at my regionally strong T40-50. I've put in for a transfer to HLS. I'm just trying to think through the situation in advance of any decision, however unlikely an acceptance may be. Here are the factors I'm looking at:

-Approx. $75k upon graduation from current school vs. approx. $150k+ if I transfer
-Strong desire to clerk at both Fed. DCt and COA level
-Desire to litigate in BigLaw
-Probably look to move to a litigation boutique later on down the road

I feel like I've placed myself in a good position for BigLaw at my current school. However, clerkships and top lit boutiques seem to be a farther stretch without the pedigree of a T14 school. While I honestly hate the fact that I would probably be doubling my debt with a transfer, it would be hard to walk away from the doors that an HLS degree could open up later on down the road. Any ideas regarding how to evaluate this?

Also, does anybody have an idea as to how much your law school degree matters to clients in private practice? Does it help with marketing and creditability, or do results and experience really just speak for themselves?

Thanks in advance.

[ph14]

I'm currently around the 1-3% at my regionally strong T40-50. I've put in for a transfer to HLS. I'm just trying to think through the situation in advance of any decision, however unlikely an acceptance may be. Here are the factors I'm looking at:

-Approx. $75k upon graduation from current school vs. approx. $150k+ if I transfer
-Strong desire to clerk at both Fed. DCt and COA level
-Desire to litigate in BigLaw
-Probably look to move to a litigation boutique later on down the road

I feel like I've placed myself in a good position for BigLaw at my current school. However, clerkships and top lit boutiques seem to be a farther stretch without the pedigree of a T14 school. While I honestly hate the fact that I would probably be doubling my debt with a transfer, it would be hard to walk away from the doors that an HLS degree could open up later on down the road. Any ideas regarding how to evaluate this?

Also, does anybody have an idea as to how much your law school degree matters to clients in private practice? Does it help with marketing and creditability, or do results and experience really just speak for themselves?

Thanks in advance.

I would say transfer at HLS given your goals and costs:

1. Strong desire to clerk, including both at the district court and COA level. HLS definitely. HLS puts probably 20% of its class into clerkships (maybe more if you are counting a few years out). The placement and network are real and powerful.
2. Strong desire to litigate in biglaw. Virtually everyone who wants biglaw from HLS gets it.
3. Interest in a litigation boutique. HLS has great placement in the very selective boutiques (e.g., Keker & Van Nest, Kellogg Huber, Bartlit Beck. Susman Godfrey) and very selective biglaw litigation-focused shops (e.g., Williams & Connolly, Munger, Tolles & Olson, Irell & Manella).

I would say these are worth an extra $75,000 to about $150,000 in total debt. I think I saw a thread yesterday that the maximum aid from HLS still put your cost of attendance around the $150,000 range, meaning that you are about as well off as anyone paying their own way through HLS.

Disclaimer: HLS 3L, and one with opportunities that I probably would not have had I not gone to HLS (also, see comment in profile).

[Anonymous User]

I'm currently around the 1-3% at my regionally strong T40-50. I've put in for a transfer to HLS. I'm just trying to think through the situation in advance of any decision, however unlikely an acceptance may be. Here are the factors I'm looking at:

-Approx. $75k upon graduation from current school vs. approx. $150k+ if I transfer
-Strong desire to clerk at both Fed. DCt and COA level
-Desire to litigate in BigLaw
-Probably look to move to a litigation boutique later on down the road

I feel like I've placed myself in a good position for BigLaw at my current school. However, clerkships and top lit boutiques seem to be a farther stretch without the pedigree of a T14 school. While I honestly hate the fact that I would probably be doubling my debt with a transfer, it would be hard to walk away from the doors that an HLS degree could open up later on down the road. Any ideas regarding how to evaluate this?

Also, does anybody have an idea as to how much your law school degree matters to clients in private practice? Does it help with marketing and creditability, or do results and experience really just speak for themselves?

Thanks in advance.

I would say transfer at HLS given your goals and costs:

1. Strong desire to clerk, including both at the district court and COA level. HLS definitely. HLS puts probably 20% of its class into clerkships (maybe more if you are counting a few years out). The placement and network are real and powerful.
2. Strong desire to litigate in biglaw. Virtually everyone who wants biglaw from HLS gets it.
3. Interest in a litigation boutique. HLS has great placement in the very selective boutiques (e.g., Keker & Van Nest, Kellogg Huber, Bartlit Beck. Susman Godfrey) and very selective biglaw litigation-focused shops (e.g., Williams & Connolly, Munger, Tolles & Olson, Irell & Manella).

I would say these are worth an extra $75,000 to about $150,000 in total debt. I think I saw a thread yesterday that the maximum aid from HLS still put your cost of attendance around the $150,000 range, meaning that you are about as well off as anyone paying their own way through HLS.

Disclaimer: HLS 3L, and one with opportunities that I probably would not have had I not gone to HLS (also, see comment in profile).

OP here. Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate the profile comment disclosure, haha. However, how does the big debate in this thread (http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=228383) play into your opinion?

[Jchance]

Big difference between:
(1) paying HLS sticker for 3 years.
(2) strong 1L grades as HLS transfer-->guaranteed (?) 2L SA + paying HLS sticker for 2 years.

[ph14]

I generally agree with the point of the thread, but for your goals (elite litigation boutique and COA clerkship) plus the extra security for landing a position, I think the extra $75k is worth it, though keep in mind that I am not intimately familiar with employment statistics at your old school. Getting a HLS degree for $150k is about the best you can possibly do absent personal savings or family help. Your first year at your current school, seemingly on scholarship, means that you are not paying as much for the HLS degree, but you would still be getting the same degree that every HLS student gets.

FWIW I am good friends with someone who transferred from a school ranked in the 20s (I think). While s/he also had personal reasons for transferring, I don't think s/he regrets it and s/he secured employment with a V10 in DC. Now s/he just enjoys being a 2L/3L and the more relaxed grading system. S/he doesn't have the pressure to keep up rank and grades.

[ph14]

Big difference between:
(1) paying HLS sticker for 3 years.
(2) strong 1L grades as HLS transfer-->guaranteed (?) 2L SA + paying HLS sticker for 2 years.

Or to put it more succinctly, this. Though as someone with high enough grades to transfer to HLS you probably have strong odds of getting a 2L SA, though you obviously know more about this than I.

[nonprofit-prophet]

I was accepted as a transfer to HLS a few years ago, but decided to stay at my school (albeit, the difference in ranking between my current school and HLS was less for me than it is for you). One of the biggest reasons was that I wouldn't have had enough time to build relationships with professors for clerkship recommendations (probably more true now with the demise of the plan). So try to figure out if people in the top 1-3% of your class regularly get clerkships. You may be better off for clerkships by staying put.

For credibility: clerking for a COA in one of the top 5 largest cities.

[ph14]

I was accepted as a transfer to HLS a few years ago, but decided to stay at my school (albeit, the difference in ranking between my current school and HLS was less for me than it is for you). One of the biggest reasons was that I wouldn't have enough time to build relationships with professors for clerkship recommendations (probably more true now with the demise of the plan). So try to figure out if the top 1-3% of your class regularly get clerkships. You may be better off for clerkships by staying put.

For credibility: clerking for a COA in one of the top 5 largest cities.

That's a fair point. I think only 2 of my letters of recommendation were 1L professors, but that's still 2 you would be behind in getting to know. I don't think it's insurmountable, though. My best LOR was from a professor who I didn't get to know until 2L.

Plus, this point loses a lot of its power when you consider that you can apply for clerkships as a 3L or alumni. No one is saying you have to have your clerkship secured during fall 2L.

[Jchance]

I was accepted as a transfer to HLS a few years ago, but decided to stay at my school (albeit, the difference in ranking between my current school and HLS was less for me than it is for you). One of the biggest reasons was that I wouldn't have had enough time to build relationships with professors for clerkship recommendations (probably more true now with the demise of the plan). So try to figure out if people in the top 1-3% of your class regularly get clerkships. You may be better off for clerkships by staying put.

For credibility: clerking for a COA in one of the top 5 largest cities.

You can always keep in contact and use your 1L recommenders (for transfer) from your old school for clerkship apps. A lot of the profs understand the situation for transfers given the death of hiring plan.

[Anonymous User]

I generally agree with the point of the thread, but for your goals (elite litigation boutique and COA clerkship) plus the extra security for landing a position, I think the extra $75k is worth it, though keep in mind that I am not intimately familiar with employment statistics at your old school. Getting a HLS degree for $150k is about the best you can possibly do absent personal savings or family help. Your first year at your current school, seemingly on scholarship, means that you are not paying as much for the HLS degree, but you would still be getting the same degree that every HLS student gets.

FWIW I am good friends with someone who transferred from a school ranked in the 20s (I think). While s/he also had personal reasons for transferring, I don't think s/he regrets it and s/he secured employment with a V10 in DC. Now s/he just enjoys being a 2L/3L and the more relaxed grading system. S/he doesn't have the pressure to keep up rank and grades.

OP here. So it seems like a big factor is really debt tolerance and dollar value placed on an HLS degree itself (which implicitly includes the benefits that ph14 mentioned). But if I have already achieved some of those benefits (such as a near lock on BigLaw), then doesn't the value of an HLS degree necessarily drop off of the $150k value to the average incoming HLS 0L? In other words, how does the increased possibility of COA and Lit Boutique alone in my position equal the increased possibility of BigLaw, COA, and Lit Boutiques for any other non-transfer HLS student from a fiscal perspective?
Also, did your friend incur more debt in the transfer? How does the increased pressure of greater long-term debt compare to the decreased short-term pressure of grades/class rank, etc?

Not trying to combative, just trying to think it through. I'm generally debt averse if that's not obvious already. But HLS is also HLS.

[Nelson]

Since you're anon, just say your current school since that makes a pretty big difference.

[Anonymous User]

Since you're anon, just say your current school since that makes a pretty big difference.

OP. SMU/UH.

[BVest]

You can always keep in contact and use your 1L recommenders (for transfer) from your old school for clerkship apps. A lot of the profs understand the situation for transfers given the death of hiring plan.

I got an apparently good clerkship rec from one of my 1L profs at a very similarly situated 1L school. I also had one of my 1L profs turn me down (actually, s/he merely expressed reservations and I thought it best to avoid a letter of ambivalence... admittedly, I had failed to maintain the relationship after the transfer, as I had done with the other).

At my 2L school I started in two classes with well-known/respected profs in the region where I'm seeking to clerk, visited with them throughout the semester, and after grades came out got one to write me a letter of rec, which was a major factor in getting me one of my interviews.

My third letter came from my 1L summer. I haven't needed a 4th yet... I'll cross that bridge if/when I come to it.

And as PH14 says, you can always apply to clerk as a 3L or post-grad; the interview that I got due to my 2L rec ended up going to a 3L at my school.

Given your goals and the small difference in debt you should transfer. Further, given your goals, you may wish to broaden your pool of transfer schools; you need to be at a school with a robust clerkship program and track record, and where you are now simply doesn't have that.

Meanwhile, get off TLS; finals start this week.

[Nelson]

Since you're anon, just say your current school since that makes a pretty big difference.

OP. SMU/UH.

Stay if you want to work in Texas. Probably leave if you want NYC? Depends on the NYC firm presence at your current school's OCI.

[jumpin munkey]

If you are a lock for biglaw from your current school then probably stay. Although like Nelson said if you really want to be in New York, I'm guessing that requires a decent amount of legwork from your school and that could justify going to HLS.

Don't transfer to interview with and get rejected by boutiques. Lol @ ph saying HLS does really well at Munger and Bartlit Beck -- yeah, the kids who get those firms had great grades at Harvard, not great grades at UH/SMU and then transferred to Harvard. OP can stay and mass-mail Williams and Connolly for free if he wants to get the rejection letterhead.

[ph14]

If you are a lock for biglaw from your current school then probably stay. Although like Nelson said if you really want to be in New York, I'm guessing that requires a decent amount of legwork from your school and that could justify going to HLS.

Don't transfer to interview with and get rejected by boutiques. Lol @ ph saying HLS does really well at Munger, Bartlit Beck, and W&C -- yeah, the kids who do well there had great grades from Harvard, not UH/SMU.

There are other ways to get hired besides OCI. Say, coming off a clerkship or two, as OP says he is "strong[ly]" interested in doing.

[jumpin munkey]

Everyone and their mother is interested in clerking. I feel pretty confident saying OP will never work at any of the firms you listed. And that's not a knock on OP, because I feel the same way about myself.

Edit: It does seem true that clerking would be easier from HLS--if your current school only gets a couple percent in federal clerkships, it's probably worth it to give up LR and all that stuff. So if you do want that bad enough, that in combination with general OCI prospects is certainly worth some money. And you obviously *increase your chance* with boutiques. But OP isn't going to get a job with Kellogg Huber or Bartlit Beck, so I have no idea why HLS's alleged "placement" into them would be a factor at all. (I'm pretty sure Bartlit has hardly any people from Harvard.)