Top Law Schools

Alright, I'm a 1L, and against all wisdom and worldly advice, I'm paying sticker out of state at a school 30-40. My low GPA meant that my cycle was all over, and I only got scholarship money at Washburn. Yeah.

I'm from Colorado, got dinged at CU, waitlist-admitted at DU. I'd like to practice back in my home state if possible. I'm not horrified by the idea of practicing where my school is, but I'm horrified of the idea of all this debt. I didn't fully comprehend how bad it is until I got here and met 2 and 3Ls, no scholarships, no jobs. Perhaps I became a victim of Special Snowflake Syndrome, and I have no grades, so I might luck out and place in an okay part of my class. Even so, employment prospects here aren't wonderful, and my school is stingy with their money anyway.

Here's my question: would it make any sense at all to transfer to CU? Would they even take me since they rejected me before? My reasoning is that I'm already paying sticker; I might as well pay sticker at in-state rates and live with my parents, and the rankings drop makes it basically a lateral.

Does this idea make sense in any objective reality, or am I on crack? Will the answer depend on rank after 1L year and journal status?

EDIT: CU resident price is 49,000, minus the 12,000 I wouldn't need for rent, utilities, and food, so 37,000 a year. My school is 58,000 a year. So I guess I'd be saving 42,000 if I went back, assuming it's possible to go back.

Makes good sense. If you want to practice in Colorado, you should go to CU. And you'll be saving money.

I know CU enrolls ~10-15 transfers a year. I think most came from TTs/TTTs/TTTTs. But they won't care at all that you were previously rejected. If anything, I could see it being a perk (you REALLY want to go).

Good luck.

I agree with shock that it makes good sense and you should definitely transfer if possible. You will need good grades though, I imagine top 20% at least to make it happen. Anecdotal I know, but I know someone from a mid-west T2 that was in the top 15% and transferred back home to Minnesota.

HTH and good luck. You should spend the rest of your time studying, and not being on this forum!

a11 1n wrote:I agree with shock that it makes good sense and you should definitely transfer if possible. You will need good grades though, I imagine top 20% at least to make it happen. Anecdotal I know, but I know someone from a mid-west T2 that was in the top 15% and transferred back home to Minnesota.

HTH and good luck. You should spend the rest of your time studying, and not being on this forum!

Where will I need to be, in your estimation, to transfer down? It's roughly a 5-spot drop from where I am now to Colorado.

And I'm off to study!

I don't know where you need to be, other than above median (top half). Obviously, the higher, the better. Your strength is that you're a resident of Colorado wanting to return home where you intend to practice. Regardless, Wisconsin's diploma privilege is attractive if willing to stay in the state for awhile after law school. You can still take the Colorado bar exam.

gobuffs10 wrote:

a11 1n wrote:I agree with shock that it makes good sense and you should definitely transfer if possible. You will need good grades though, I imagine top 20% at least to make it happen. Anecdotal I know, but I know someone from a mid-west T2 that was in the top 15% and transferred back home to Minnesota.

HTH and good luck. You should spend the rest of your time studying, and not being on this forum!

Where will I need to be, in your estimation, to transfer down? It's roughly a 5-spot drop from where I am now to Colorado.

And I'm off to study!

It isn't a transfer down. Rankings fluctuate year to year. When I first looked at CU, they were #32. That number was meaninglessly precise. Likewise, the current "rank" of 44 is meaninglessly precise. The rankings just give us rough tiers and some data to go over. Definetly do not say "even though it means going to a lessor ranked school, I really love Colorado and am super-excited about CU."

I bet median is fine, and I think you should transfer. Schools are mopping up transfers now because they don't effect their LSAT/GPA medians and they pay full boat.

BTW why the hell did you pick a out of state T1 and decide to pay full tuition? Just curious, as you said that you'd already been exposed to TLS.

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:

gobuffs10 wrote:

a11 1n wrote:I agree with shock that it makes good sense and you should definitely transfer if possible. You will need good grades though, I imagine top 20% at least to make it happen. Anecdotal I know, but I know someone from a mid-west T2 that was in the top 15% and transferred back home to Minnesota.

HTH and good luck. You should spend the rest of your time studying, and not being on this forum!

Where will I need to be, in your estimation, to transfer down? It's roughly a 5-spot drop from where I am now to Colorado.

And I'm off to study!

It isn't a transfer down. Rankings fluctuate year to year. When I first looked at CU, they were #32. That number was meaninglessly precise. Likewise, the current "rank" of 44 is meaninglessly precise. The rankings just give us rough tiers and some data to go over. Definetly do not say "even though it means going to a lessor ranked school, I really love Colorado and am super-excited about CU."

I bet median is fine, and I think you should transfer. Schools are mopping up transfers now because they don't effect their LSAT/GPA medians and they pay full boat.

BTW why the hell did you pick a out of state T1 and decide to pay full tuition? Just curious, as you said that you'd already been exposed to TLS.

Thanks. I didn't mean to sound like CU is some huge drop off. The rankings are silly, IMO, especially once you start getting between 25-50. I certainly wouldn't mention it in my PS to them. Besides, although I really wanted to go where I currently go, if CU had actually let me in, that's where I'd be. That's where I did my first half of undergrad (hence my user name).

As far as why I left state and paid full tuition, CU dinged me, and out of state tuition where I am is cheaper than DU. And no offense to DU, but I've never been its biggest fan. My options were effectively T4 out of state with pretty good money, DU at sticker (and TBH, I wasn't happy that they waitlist-admitted me when they were giving scholarships to people with lower LSATs; they just didn't want me to affect their GPA stats), a school in the 30-40 range at sticker, a few places in the 65-100 range, all sticker, or I could continue to work retail part-time.

Regarding TLS, this place has some wonderful information. It also has a lot of people who are tremendously hostile to those who, for whatever reason, can't attend T14. It can be hard to gauge who is giving useful advice against who is just going to tell people not to go, regardless of their circumstances. This is the same forum where I saw someone going to UVA talk shit to someone going to Cornell over their supposedly inferior education. It's really hard to take everyone here seriously, and what's more, how do I know if I'm talking to 1L, a 3L, a grad, or just some college junior 0L who lurks and parrots other people's posts? Further, TLS is not representative of law schools or the field in general. Like I said, it's a useful place to get information, but it is not a complete portrait of reality. For every person on here who gets 10 callbacks and 0 offers, despite being ranked pretty high at a T14, there are others, personal friends of mine, with jobs lined up, coming out of law schools I've never even heard of. So many different things go into school, work, etc., that it's hard to read a few threads on a forum and decide they're conclusive.

I began to consider law school at age 20 (so about five years ago), and the damage to my GPA had already been done. I did what I could to salvage it, but there wasn't much left to do. The first time I took the LSAT, I did terrible and sat a cycle. The second time, I saw modest gains, and trying to get high 160s/low 170s meant sitting out another cycle, another year of retail, for similar options (my GPA is THAT bad). I just weighed my options and made a choice. It may not have been the right one, but it's been made. I was attracted to this particular school and its location, and I still am. But with no regional ties, and rising tuition, I'm just not sure I made the best decision. Had I gotten in at CU I would've gone there with no questions asked. Basically, I decided years ago that this is what I want to do, understood that my GPA was going to severely limit my options, and went in with the understanding that I'd be taking a tremendous risk. I had a weird cycle, though; my LSAT should have gotten me in at most schools I applied to, but they all decided to waitlist me first because of my GPA. The school I wound up at, I tried to get in to for two years. They worked with me for two years, gave me advice, and tried to set me up to get in the second time around. I kinda got tunnel vision on this particular school, and I figured SOME people have to be getting jobs. And indeed, some are, even if they aren't Big Law.

If I could do it over, I'd time my LSATs better so that retaking didn't mean a third cycle. However, I'd still go to law school, it'd still cost a tremendous amount, and jobs would still be scarce. If I wasn't here, I'd be trying to get a PhD in history or philosophy (talk about bad job prospects), or working part-time at a bookstore. It's hard to even get full-time retail these days (I was making $7.75 an hour at 24 hours per week, and this after a year of working there). I knew that I wanted to be a lawyer, not an incredibly gifted bookseller. Not to knock retail, but it isn't for me, and I wanted to do something I'd be proud of. People can knock law all they want, and point out that there are a million lawyers nowadays. I still believe that it's an occupation worth choosing, so long as you're fully prepared to take on the challenges.

TL;DR - I want to be a lawyer, but I had an extreme absence of choices; I recognize that my circumstances are my own fault. Part Special Snowflake Syndrome, part major attraction to this school, costs be damned. I made a choice with a lot of risk involved, given the choices available to me, and T1 with slightly better employment seemed preferable to T4 in Topeka, Kansas. At this point, though, if I might have a second shot at CU, a school I love, and it has the bonus of saving a ton of money, I'd be foolish not to consider the switch.

gobuffs10 wrote:

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:

gobuffs10 wrote:

a11 1n wrote:I agree with shock that it makes good sense and you should definitely transfer if possible. You will need good grades though, I imagine top 20% at least to make it happen. Anecdotal I know, but I know someone from a mid-west T2 that was in the top 15% and transferred back home to Minnesota.

HTH and good luck. You should spend the rest of your time studying, and not being on this forum!

Where will I need to be, in your estimation, to transfer down? It's roughly a 5-spot drop from where I am now to Colorado.

And I'm off to study!

It isn't a transfer down. Rankings fluctuate year to year. When I first looked at CU, they were #32. That number was meaninglessly precise. Likewise, the current "rank" of 44 is meaninglessly precise. The rankings just give us rough tiers and some data to go over. Definetly do not say "even though it means going to a lessor ranked school, I really love Colorado and am super-excited about CU."

I bet median is fine, and I think you should transfer. Schools are mopping up transfers now because they don't effect their LSAT/GPA medians and they pay full boat.

BTW why the hell did you pick a out of state T1 and decide to pay full tuition? Just curious, as you said that you'd already been exposed to TLS.

Thanks. I didn't mean to sound like CU is some huge drop off. The rankings are silly, IMO, especially once you start getting between 25-50. I certainly wouldn't mention it in my PS to them. Besides, although I really wanted to go where I currently go, if CU had actually let me in, that's where I'd be. That's where I did my first half of undergrad (hence my user name).

As far as why I left state and paid full tuition, CU dinged me, and out of state tuition where I am is cheaper than DU. And no offense to DU, but I've never been its biggest fan. My options were effectively T4 out of state with pretty good money, DU at sticker (and TBH, I wasn't happy that they waitlist-admitted me when they were giving scholarships to people with lower LSATs; they just didn't want me to affect their GPA stats), a school in the 30-40 range at sticker, a few places in the 65-100 range, all sticker, or I could continue to work retail part-time.

Regarding TLS, this place has some wonderful information. It also has a lot of people who are tremendously hostile to those who, for whatever reason, can't attend T14. It can be hard to gauge who is giving useful advice against who is just going to tell people not to go, regardless of their circumstances. This is the same forum where I saw someone going to UVA talk shit to someone going to Cornell over their supposedly inferior education. It's really hard to take everyone here seriously, and what's more, how do I know if I'm talking to 1L, a 3L, a grad, or just some college junior 0L who lurks and parrots other people's posts? Further, TLS is not representative of law schools or the field in general. Like I said, it's a useful place to get information, but it is not a complete portrait of reality. For every person on here who gets 10 callbacks and 0 offers, despite being ranked pretty high at a T14, there are others, personal friends of mine, with jobs lined up, coming out of law schools I've never even heard of. So many different things go into school, work, etc., that it's hard to read a few threads on a forum and decide they're conclusive.

I began to consider law school at age 20 (so about five years ago), and the damage to my GPA had already been done. I did what I could to salvage it, but there wasn't much left to do. The first time I took the LSAT, I did terrible and sat a cycle. The second time, I saw modest gains, and trying to get high 160s/low 170s meant sitting out another cycle, another year of retail, for similar options (my GPA is THAT bad). I just weighed my options and made a choice. It may not have been the right one, but it's been made. I was attracted to this particular school and its location, and I still am. But with no regional ties, and rising tuition, I'm just not sure I made the best decision. Had I gotten in at CU I would've gone there with no questions asked. Basically, I decided years ago that this is what I want to do, understood that my GPA was going to severely limit my options, and went in with the understanding that I'd be taking a tremendous risk. I had a weird cycle, though; my LSAT should have gotten me in at most schools I applied to, but they all decided to waitlist me first because of my GPA. The school I wound up at, I tried to get in to for two years. They worked with me for two years, gave me advice, and tried to set me up to get in the second time around. I kinda got tunnel vision on this particular school, and I figured SOME people have to be getting jobs. And indeed, some are, even if they aren't Big Law.

If I could do it over, I'd time my LSATs better so that retaking didn't mean a third cycle. However, I'd still go to law school, it'd still cost a tremendous amount, and jobs would still be scarce. If I wasn't here, I'd be trying to get a PhD in history or philosophy (talk about bad job prospects), or working part-time at a bookstore. It's hard to even get full-time retail these days (I was making $7.75 an hour at 24 hours per week, and this after a year of working there). I knew that I wanted to be a lawyer, not an incredibly gifted bookseller. Not to knock retail, but it isn't for me, and I wanted to do something I'd be proud of. People can knock law all they want, and point out that there are a million lawyers nowadays. I still believe that it's an occupation worth choosing, so long as you're fully prepared to take on the challenges.

TL;DR - I want to be a lawyer, but I had an extreme absence of choices; I recognize that my circumstances are my own fault. Part Special Snowflake Syndrome, part major attraction to this school, costs be damned. I made a choice with a lot of risk involved, given the choices available to me, and T1 with slightly better employment seemed preferable to T4 in Topeka, Kansas. At this point, though, if I might have a second shot at CU, a school I love, and it has the bonus of saving a ton of money, I'd be foolish not to consider the switch.

Pretty reasonable. It seems like you have a good idea of the position you were in, and it even seems like you have a good idea about the position you are in now. CU in-state is 31k, and you can also work during the school year if you want (I do, and know others that do to keep costs down). I would plan on transferring. Surely the fact that you went to undergrad here and now have a better GPA from another good school will help you out. Good luck.

EDIT -- love that you are procrastinating studying with that massive post.

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
EDIT -- love that you are procrastinating studying with that massive post.

Haha I've just got Crim tomorrow. We don't learn MPC or old common law, just the revised state statutes. So, we get a packet of made-up statutes and 3-4 hypos, all with word limits so that we don't word vomit. Because the statutes are going to vary from the state's statutes, I have no reason to memorize those. All I really have to know is what's required for intent/agg. recklessness/simple recklessness/negligent crimes, and there will probably be a question or two about the constitutionality of burden-shifting in the made-up statutes. So I need to brush up on Winship, Mullaney, Patterson, etc. The real studying begins after this Crim final tomorrow.

Thanks for the quick reply. Thankfully, the position I'm in now is a lot clearer than the position I was in regarding which school to choose as a 0L.

Unrelated to transferring, but I hear rumors that DU places better in Colorado than CU does. Given the reputation difference, and the fact that I've heard many DU students and grads say terrible things about their school, why is this the case (if it is)? Is it because Denver itself is swarming with DU grads, so they network more easily?

gobuffs10 wrote:

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
EDIT -- love that you are procrastinating studying with that massive post.

Haha I've just got Crim tomorrow. We don't learn MPC or old common law, just the revised state statutes. So, we get a packet of made-up statutes and 3-4 hypos, all with word limits so that we don't word vomit. Because the statutes are going to vary from the state's statutes, I have no reason to memorize those. All I really have to know is what's required for intent/agg. recklessness/simple recklessness/negligent crimes, and there will probably be a question or two about the constitutionality of burden-shifting in the made-up statutes. So I need to brush up on Winship, Mullaney, Patterson, etc. The real studying begins after this Crim final tomorrow.

Thanks for the quick reply. Thankfully, the position I'm in now is a lot clearer than the position I was in regarding which school to choose as a 0L.

Unrelated to transferring, but I hear rumors that DU places better in Colorado than CU does. Given the reputation difference, and the fact that I've heard many DU students and grads say terrible things about their school, why is this the case (if it is)? Is it because Denver itself is swarming with DU grads, so they network more easily?

Don't know what "rumor" you heard, but not true.

Employment info on the two schools in 2009--
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=150681

CU - 30% over 60k or Art. III clerks
DU - 6% over 55k or Art. III clerks

TLS didn't break down 10' the same way, but just eyeing the discrepancy it looks similar. Basically, at least 25%-30% of CU can get a decent job, and the majority of the class can get or does get full-time, JD required work, though some seem to lose their interest in law during school (probably after they realize they will have to work long hours to make 40k-45k..) and take jobs in other fields. DU.. employment is no where close. The difference in the schools is like U of San Fran to Hastings-- not on the same level. What is sad is that, CU and Hastings aren't even close to being good financial decisions. Attendance at DU or San Fran is just setting money on fire.

That DU line about having more attorneys is asinine. Yeah, there are more alums, but there are more students in your class that you have to compete with.... Plus, most of those DU alums are in absolutely no position to help you out-- see above employment info. Its like one of those lines that only makes sense the first time you think about it.

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:

gobuffs10 wrote:

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
EDIT -- love that you are procrastinating studying with that massive post.

Haha I've just got Crim tomorrow. We don't learn MPC or old common law, just the revised state statutes. So, we get a packet of made-up statutes and 3-4 hypos, all with word limits so that we don't word vomit. Because the statutes are going to vary from the state's statutes, I have no reason to memorize those. All I really have to know is what's required for intent/agg. recklessness/simple recklessness/negligent crimes, and there will probably be a question or two about the constitutionality of burden-shifting in the made-up statutes. So I need to brush up on Winship, Mullaney, Patterson, etc. The real studying begins after this Crim final tomorrow.

Thanks for the quick reply. Thankfully, the position I'm in now is a lot clearer than the position I was in regarding which school to choose as a 0L.

Unrelated to transferring, but I hear rumors that DU places better in Colorado than CU does. Given the reputation difference, and the fact that I've heard many DU students and grads say terrible things about their school, why is this the case (if it is)? Is it because Denver itself is swarming with DU grads, so they network more easily?

Don't know what "rumor" you heard, but not true.

Employment info on the two schools in 2009--
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=150681

CU - 30% over 60k or Art. III clerks
DU - 6% over 55k or Art. III clerks

TLS didn't break down 10' the same way, but just eyeing the discrepancy it looks similar. Basically, at least 25%-30% of CU can get a decent job, and the majority of the class can get or does get full-time, JD required work, though some seem to lose their interest in law during school (probably after they realize they will have to work long hours to make 40k-45k..) and take jobs in other fields. DU.. employment is no where close. The difference in the schools is like U of San Fran to Hastings-- not on the same level. What is sad is that, CU and Hastings aren't even close to being good financial decisions. Attendance at DU or San Fran is just setting money on fire.

That DU line about having more attorneys is asinine. Yeah, there are more alums, but there are more students in your class that you have to compete with.... Plus, most of those DU alums are in absolutely no position to help you out-- see above employment info. Its like one of those lines that only makes sense the first time you think about it.

Appreciate the data. Thanks Lord.