NYU vs. Penn Forum

[mileslibertatis]

So I thought this would be easy. I thought T6 would trump T10 and I could wait on HYS. I am interested in academia and plan to get a DPhil or PhD or something like that at some point after law school. But I do plan to practice law for a time.

So, now, thinking about it, Penn is closer to my family, closer to my wife's family, near where I grew up, and could end up being about $20k less in loans because of my GI benefits. It is also a smaller school (which I like) in a smaller city where I have lots of friends and some family.

Am I being a stupidhead for considering giving up NYU for Penn?

Edit: I should add that my wife and I would like to start having kids (yes, in law school, I know, I know) and being closer to family will be a major advantage for that.

[Doorkeeper]

You're not stupid, but if you're considering academia NYU definitely has the edge over Penn (even more so if you're interested in law and philosophy). NYU placed 16 into academia this year, second behind Harvard. They have two faculty members whose sole administrative duties are to prepare their students and help alums get positions. They also have the Furman Scholarship, which is a specialized program for students specifically interested in academia, pairs them with faculty mentors/research partners, and waives tuition for the year(s) that you're in it. I cannot speak more highly about the efforts NYU is taking to try and position themselves to be a player in legal academia over the past 3-4 years.

I'm a 0L, but I came to this conclusion after speaking with many faculty members (and Deans) at HCCN before I made my decision.

[mileslibertatis]

Thanks for that information. I have been looking at Leiter's reports and it looks like NYU does have a decisive edge over Penn in almost all of them. A recent per capita placement ranking showed Penn competitive, but that was it...

[Doorkeeper]

Thanks for that information. I have been looking at Leiter's reports and it looks like NYU does have a decisive edge over Penn in almost all of them. A recent per capita placement ranking showed Penn competitive, but that was it...

Leiter hasn't updated his shit over the past few years because Chicago has had a couple of shitty placement years and he doesn't want Chicago to slip. They only placed 3 this year and like 4-5 last year. Stanford and NYU have both surpassed them over the past 3 years.

Here's the hiring info for this past year. NYU placed 16 and Penn placed 3. Not as bad on per capita, but not really same league.
http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblaw ... eport.html

Edit- What areas are you interested? I may be able to provide specific faculty info if our areas overlap

[thechee]

For those who want to try and break into academia, Penn has a program to help such folks get started. I don't think I've met anyone who wants to do academia at Penn.

http://www.law.upenn.edu/cf/faculty/fellowships/

[mileslibertatis]

I am interested less in teaching the nuts and bolts of law and more in working and teaching in legal theory and philosophy, constitutional realignment, that sort of thing. Penn is an Ivy league school and the rest of the university (other than the law school) is world-class and from my experience well respected in academic circles. But then, NYU has a better reputation for legal academics.

But then... I want to have a baby and I like Philadelphia and I grew up in South Jersey...

[Doorkeeper]

I am interested less in teaching the nuts and bolts of law and more in working and teaching in legal theory and philosophy, constitutional realignment, that sort of thing. Penn is an Ivy league school and the rest of the university (other than the law school) is world-class and from my experience well respected in academic circles. But then, NYU has a better reputation for legal academics.

But then... I want to have a baby and I like Philadelphia and I grew up in South Jersey...

Well I can't speak to familial constraints. That's totally your call. I will say that Penn isn't too shabby in law and philosophy in terms of its faculty, but NYU is clearly better. You can also take up to 4 classes at NYU Philosophy as a law student. As you may know, NYU has the best philosophy department in the world. It would be highly beneficial to your application for the Philosophy PhD to have 1-2 NYU Philosophy professors to writing recommendations for you, especially if it's Scheffler/Nagel/Dworkin/etc.

Also, get the Ivy league prestige out of your head. If you want legal academia and your care about philosophy, the lay prestige of an Ivy league degree is irrelevant. You should only care about the quality of the law school and the philosophy department. NYU clearly wins here.

Without the family constraints, it would be a no brainer, but only you can weigh how important it is for you to stay close to family. One thing that might help is that you can commute from somewhere over the river in NJ to NYU via Path...so you wouldn't have to raise your baby in Manhattan if that's something you're concerned about.

[mileslibertatis]

We have been looking at housing in Jersey City and Hoboken.

Also... you have 3400 posts as a 0L?!

[Doorkeeper]

We have been looking at housing in Jersey City and Hoboken.

Also... you have 3400 posts as a 0L?!

I was very stressed and I got waitlisted at a few places, which only led to more stress posting.

And my job has been pretty boring of late. haha.

Also, feel free to shoot any specific questions about NYU/Penn or faculty my way via PM if you want, as I did my research while applying and after I was accepted. I'm going to H, so I have no bones to pick about this comparison. As someone interesting in academia and legal philosophy, I just love discussing this topic

[mileslibertatis]

Is that "What is it like to be a bat?" Nagel?

And I think it might be a little much to say NYU has a better philosophy department than Princeton, Oxford, Yale, Notre Dame, Cambridge, and Stanford just in one fell swoop like that!

[Doorkeeper]

Is that "What is it like to be a bat?" Nagel?

And I think it might be a little much to say NYU has a better philosophy department than Princeton, Oxford, Yale, Notre Dame, Cambridge, and Stanford just in one fell swoop like that!

Yea, same Nagel (although he's written a lot more). haha.

No. It's actually pretty well settled that NYU Philosophy is the best in the world right now. Oxford is VERY close, but they don't have the big names that NYU does (Outside of Timothy Williamson). Princeton is definitely Top 5. Yale is around 5-10. Notre Dame has fallen in the past 10 years to be maybe Top 15. Cambridge isn't even Top 15.

Leiter's rankings on philosophy departments are much more even. He doesn't actually do the ranking. He has notable philosophers across the globe to rank each other's schools.
See: http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/overall.asp

[rayiner]

But what school has the best program in underwater basket-weaving?

[mileslibertatis]

Well, I must reveal myself a bit and say that I am not exactly interested in prevailing secular philosophy. So the presence of a Plantinga or a Wolterstorff or even an N. T. Wright is much more my cup of tea. I'll probably do an MAHT before I do a PhD, but that is all after law school and whatnot.

Which is actually somewhat relevant. I think that because I intend to go a slightly different path, the difference between NYU and Penn may matter less.

[Doorkeeper]

Well, I must reveal myself a bit and say that I am not exactly interested in prevailing secular philosophy. So the presence of a Plantinga or a Wolterstorff or even an N. T. Wright is much more my cup of tea. I'll probably do an MAHT before I do a PhD, but that is all after law school and whatnot.

Which is actually somewhat relevant. I think that because I intend to go a slightly different path, the difference between NYU and Penn may matter less.

Yea. If you're not sold on "secular philosophy" as your most avid area of academic study, the difference isn't as wide. NYU still does an overall better job at placing into legal academia, and that's important if you want legal academia, which it sounds like you're not sold on.

[mileslibertatis]

Right, it isn't. So I like the model of someone like Judge McConnell (law professor at Stanford who teaches constitutional history) or Francis Beckwith (juridical studies expert who does church-state studies and philosophy at Baylor).

So I think maybe the fact that Penn is still respectable as an academic training facility makes it okay for me to choose it over NYU. Maye.

[mileslibertatis]

And what the hell, Leiter has an alter ego that is a philosopher? Completely different blog and everything....

[Wholigan]

For those who want to try and break into academia, Penn has a program to help such folks get started. I don't think I've met anyone who wants to do academia at Penn.

http://www.law.upenn.edu/cf/faculty/fellowships/

This is not really correct. The Sharswood fellow program is for those interested in getting their foot in the door in academia, but it is basically like being a visiting associate professor at another school. Last year, neither of the two Sharswood Fellows were Penn Law grads.

[mdfreeman]

But what school has the best program in underwater basket-weaving?

I heard Cooley is #1.

[rayiner]

But what school has the best program in underwater basket-weaving?

I heard Cooley is #1.

I did a Google search for "law and philosophy" assuming I'd get a long list of TTT's like Cooley that were duping their students into enrolling in not one but two useless degrees. Kind of surprised to see the number of legit schools (like Yale) that have law & philosophy programs...

[CanadianWolf]

Not sure, but my impression is that Berkeley may be another.

[mileslibertatis]

I may be re-posting this topic come Friday.