Top Law Schools

I am in a New York-area Tier 2, accepted to Cornell, and debating whether I should transfer:

Facts / Stats:
I want to work at biglaw exclusively in the New York market.
Top 10% at my current school. Law Review / Moot Court
I believe that, if I transfer, I will definitely graduate in at least top 50% at Cornell, probably top 30%, decent possibility for top 10%.
I believe that, if I stay, I will significantly move up to top 5%, or maybe higher.

Issues with my Tier2:
I like my current school, but am afraid of getting lousy job prospects (especially if the market tanks again), both at our OCI and upon graduation.

Issues with Cornell:
Transfers can not participate in August OCI at Cornell (transfers get admitted after the bidding deadline).
It's in the middle of nowhere, in a really small city, and I'm afraid I will go stir-crazy there with nothing to do (no more trips to NYC every weekend).
My housing options are limited to rooms in shoddy run-down Ithaca houses. Not what I'm used to. I'm gonna feel like I'm in sophomore year of undergrad again...
I don't know anybody. I have no friends in / ties to that area.
Transfer stigma?
I am not impressed with their building or administration (considering I will be spending most of my time in that building and dealing with their admins, it is a factor).


Obviously a lot more issues with Cornell since there is a lot more uncertainty - so don't take this as a sign that I have my mind set against it. I'm sure I would have had similar questions about my current school.

Help me out guys? Comments are welcome!

AlvinJames wrote:I am in a New York-area Tier 2, accepted to Cornell, and debating whether I should transfer:

Facts / Stats:
I want to work at biglaw exclusively in the New York market.
Top 10% at my current school. Law Review / Moot Court
I believe that, if I transfer, I will definitely graduate in at least top 50% at Cornell, probably top 30%, decent possibility for top 10%.
I believe that, if I stay, I will significantly move up to top 5%, or maybe higher.

Issues with my Tier2:
I like my current school, but am afraid of getting lousy job prospects (especially if the market tanks again), both at our OCI and upon graduation.

Issues with Cornell:
Transfers can not participate in August OCI at Cornell (transfers get admitted after the bidding deadline).
It's in the middle of nowhere, in a really small city, and I'm afraid I will go stir-crazy there with nothing to do (no more trips to NYC every weekend).
My housing options are limited to rooms in shoddy run-down Ithaca houses. Not what I'm used to. I'm gonna feel like I'm in sophomore year of undergrad again...
I don't know anybody. I have no friends in / ties to that area.
Transfer stigma?
I am not impressed with their building or administration (considering I will be spending most of my time in that building and dealing with their admins, it is a factor).


Obviously a lot more issues with Cornell since there is a lot more uncertainty - so don't take this as a sign that I have my mind set against it. I'm sure I would have had similar questions about my current school.

Help me out guys? Comments are welcome!

if this were any other T14 school besides Cornell, I would probably say suck it up and transfer. However, Cornell has a notorious reputation for treating transfers as second-class citizens, beginning with their refusal to allow them to participate in their main OCI offering. That alone should dissuade you. You're in a decent position at your current school and should be able to land at least SA position at a NYC mid-size firm. I'd stay.

.

I'm not getting a full ride, but I do have a scholarship which is helping me out. Without getting too much into details, the difference in debt between Cornell and current school over the next 2 years will be approximately 50k. However, I'm not really worried about this. 50k is not a huge number when you're comparing that to the rest of your career / life.

crazyblink653 wrote: if this were any other T14 school besides Cornell, I would probably say suck it up and transfer. However, Cornell has a notorious reputation for treating transfers as second-class citizens, beginning with their refusal to allow them to participate in their main OCI offering. That alone should dissuade you. You're in a decent position at your current school and should be able to land at least SA position at a NYC mid-size firm. I'd stay.

Is this true? Kinda of makes sense though that a school wants to protect its own, I mean no offense but when transfers come from significantly inferior schools it seems a little unfair that they should have the same opportunities as the kids who put in the hard work from the start.

elmagic wrote:

crazyblink653 wrote: if this were any other T14 school besides Cornell, I would probably say suck it up and transfer. However, Cornell has a notorious reputation for treating transfers as second-class citizens, beginning with their refusal to allow them to participate in their main OCI offering. That alone should dissuade you. You're in a decent position at your current school and should be able to land at least SA position at a NYC mid-size firm. I'd stay.

Is this true? Kinda of makes sense though that a school wants to protect its own, I mean no offense but when transfers come from significantly inferior schools it seems a little unfair that they should have the same opportunities as the kids who put in the hard work from the start.

this is stupid

Helmholtz wrote:

elmagic wrote:

crazyblink653 wrote: if this were any other T14 school besides Cornell, I would probably say suck it up and transfer. However, Cornell has a notorious reputation for treating transfers as second-class citizens, beginning with their refusal to allow them to participate in their main OCI offering. That alone should dissuade you. You're in a decent position at your current school and should be able to land at least SA position at a NYC mid-size firm. I'd stay.

Is this true? Kinda of makes sense though that a school wants to protect its own, I mean no offense but when transfers come from significantly inferior schools it seems a little unfair that they should have the same opportunities as the kids who put in the hard work from the start.

this is stupid

idk bro, but i think there is an argument that could be made that while a school will allow transfers to graduate with the privilege of a degree from that school, it doesn't necessary mean that people who did well at inferior schools are entitled to the same opportunities as those who were there from the beginning.

elmagic wrote:

Helmholtz wrote:

elmagic wrote:

crazyblink653 wrote: if this were any other T14 school besides Cornell, I would probably say suck it up and transfer. However, Cornell has a notorious reputation for treating transfers as second-class citizens, beginning with their refusal to allow them to participate in their main OCI offering. That alone should dissuade you. You're in a decent position at your current school and should be able to land at least SA position at a NYC mid-size firm. I'd stay.

Is this true? Kinda of makes sense though that a school wants to protect its own, I mean no offense but when transfers come from significantly inferior schools it seems a little unfair that they should have the same opportunities as the kids who put in the hard work from the start.

this is stupid

idk bro, but i think there is an argument that could be made that while a school will allow transfers to graduate with the privilege of a degree from that school, it doesn't necessary mean that people who did well at inferior schools are entitled to the same opportunities as those who were there from the beginning.

You must be a 0L. You speak like one for sure.

elmagic wrote:

Helmholtz wrote:

elmagic wrote:

crazyblink653 wrote: if this were any other T14 school besides Cornell, I would probably say suck it up and transfer. However, Cornell has a notorious reputation for treating transfers as second-class citizens, beginning with their refusal to allow them to participate in their main OCI offering. That alone should dissuade you. You're in a decent position at your current school and should be able to land at least SA position at a NYC mid-size firm. I'd stay.

Is this true? Kinda of makes sense though that a school wants to protect its own, I mean no offense but when transfers come from significantly inferior schools it seems a little unfair that they should have the same opportunities as the kids who put in the hard work from the start.

this is stupid

idk bro, but i think there is an argument that could be made that while a school will allow transfers to graduate with the privilege of a degree from that school, it doesn't necessary mean that people who did well at inferior schools are entitled to the same opportunities as those who were there from the beginning.

People are not transferring for the privilege of having a degree from a better school (or at least they shouldn't be), they're transferring for personal reasons or for better career options. Frankly, the people that I've seen hating on transfers were people who sucked at 1L and want somebody to blame for "taking all the jerbs." Also, if one "put in the hard work from the start," he probably wouldn't be at Cornell (kidding, sort of).

Helmholtz wrote: Also, if one "put in the hard work from the start," he probably wouldn't be at Cornell (kidding, sort of).

Hey now.

I'm also kind of dumbstruck by the idea that somebody who got into a "top school" because of a good undergrad GPA and a decent LSAT score "deserves" anything more than somebody who excelled at actually taking law school exams, albeit at a school that wasn't as highly ranked. I did great on the LSAT, which helped compensate for my meh GPA, and got into a good school. Do I "deserve" a really good legal job more than somebody who was top 5% of their 1L class at a T1 and transferred to my school? Fuck if I know, but I'm not going to act like either one of us is more "deserving."

Bildungsroman wrote:

Helmholtz wrote: Also, if one "put in the hard work from the start," he probably wouldn't be at Cornell (kidding, sort of).

Hey now.

It's all right. There's always a transfer application you can send Columbia-way after you win at 1L. Just remember that they're better than you, show due deference to the homegrown Columbia kids, and you should be fine.

ndirish2010 wrote: You must be a 0L. You speak like one for sure.

Oh yeah d00d def an 0L...

Helmholtz wrote: People are not transferring for the privilege of having a degree from a better school (or at least they shouldn't be), they're transferring for personal reasons or for better career options. Frankly, the people that I've seen hating on transfers were people who sucked at 1L and want somebody to blame for "taking all the jerbs." Also, if one "put in the hard work from the start," he probably wouldn't be at Cornell (kidding, sort of).

Well, the privilege of having a degree from a better school usually brings better career options. I mean all the transfers I met at Yale came from pretty decent schools (mostly T-14) and were all probably within the top 10%. Those kids are obviously legit and any person hating on them is obviously jealous. But when Cornell is taking transfers from places like Brooklyn/Cardozo, I don't think you have to be jealous to think you are more deserving than people who went to inferior schools.

elmagic wrote: Well, the privilege of having a degree from a better school usually brings better career options. I mean all the transfers I met at Yale came from pretty decent schools (mostly T-14) and were all probably within the top 10%. Those kids are obviously legit and any person hating on them is obviously jealous. But when Cornell is taking transfers from places like Brooklyn/Cardozo, I don't think you have to be jealous to think you are more deserving than people who went to inferior schools.

If you did well in 1L, you shouldn't have to worry about them. If employers don't think the transfers are more deserving, fine. I just don't like the Cornell system of automatically locking somebody out because they went somewhere else for 1L.

Why you so mad, bro?

Helmholtz wrote:

elmagic wrote: Well, the privilege of having a degree from a better school usually brings better career options. I mean all the transfers I met at Yale came from pretty decent schools (mostly T-14) and were all probably within the top 10%. Those kids are obviously legit and any person hating on them is obviously jealous. But when Cornell is taking transfers from places like Brooklyn/Cardozo, I don't think you have to be jealous to think you are more deserving than people who went to inferior schools.

If you did well in 1L, you shouldn't have to worry about them. If employers don't think the transfers are more deserving, fine. I just don't like the Cornell system of automatically locking somebody out because they went somewhere else for 1L.

Why you so mad, bro?

i'm not mad bro, i actually don't even care cause i dropped out lol

elmagic wrote:

Helmholtz wrote:

elmagic wrote: Well, the privilege of having a degree from a better school usually brings better career options. I mean all the transfers I met at Yale came from pretty decent schools (mostly T-14) and were all probably within the top 10%. Those kids are obviously legit and any person hating on them is obviously jealous. But when Cornell is taking transfers from places like Brooklyn/Cardozo, I don't think you have to be jealous to think you are more deserving than people who went to inferior schools.

If you did well in 1L, you shouldn't have to worry about them. If employers don't think the transfers are more deserving, fine. I just don't like the Cornell system of automatically locking somebody out because they went somewhere else for 1L.

Why you so mad, bro?

i'm not mad bro, i actually don't even care cause i dropped out lol

So why are you even posting? Why do we have all these people who didn't even finish LS posting in our forum? First MTal and now this person? And frankly, as much as I dislike MTal at least he can spell and use punctuation. Look elmagic... either you dropped out because you weren't good enough to even make it above the bottom 10%, or you were smart enough to drop out because you were below median at a below T14. Either way you have no useful advice to give OP, who is doing very well- well enough to transfer to a T14. Go away.


OP- dude/dudette, if I was in your situation... and I really hope to be someday, I would probably stay where I was. The lockout of OCI chances is bullcrap and I would think your options might be better where you are.

firemed wrote: So why are you even posting? Why do we have all these people who didn't even finish LS posting in our forum? First MTal and now this person? And frankly, as much as I dislike MTal at least he can spell and use punctuation. Look elmagic... either you dropped out because you weren't good enough to even make it above the bottom 10%, or you were smart enough to drop out because you were below median at a below T14. Either way you have no useful advice to give OP, who is doing very well- well enough to transfer to a T14. Go away.


OP- dude/dudette, if I was in your situation... and I really hope to be someday, I would probably stay where I was. The lockout of OCI chances is bullcrap and I would think your options might be better where you are.

lol sorry for posting on your [our] forum... i don't usually like to have e-arguments, but you are being so ridiculous i have to look out for my e-name.

First, I went to Yale. Yep, the best law school in the country. Worked at a V10 this summer. So, put two and two together... I didn't drop out because I wasn't good enough to make it above the bottom 10% (even if Yale ranked), and I obviously didn't go to a non-T14.

so the moral of the story is what useful advice you can give to the OP? oh right, you aren't in law school so you can't give useful advice, AND you don't go to Yale, but I guess you can always fall back on your online degree right?

There is always the possibility that I can still do OCI at my current school and then transfer... so all is not lost in that respect. Since I can't do OCI at Cornell, I will end up doing OCI at current school either way. May be weird, but its my only option.

I thought it was funny when a poster said that people shouldn't transfer for the "name," because that is a big reason I am considering the transfer -- the "name" and T14 status. To be honest I like my current school fine, but its not even a Tier-1. Lets say the market goes south again, demand for new hires goes down, and summer associates at XYZ firm don't get offers. If I stay at current school, I'm screwed, even at top 5%. At that point, I will be kicking myself in the ass for the decision to stay.

Any takers on this?

AlvinJames wrote:There is always the possibility that I can still do OCI at my current school and then transfer... so all is not lost in that respect. Since I can't do OCI at Cornell, I will end up doing OCI at current school either way. May be weird, but its my only option.

I thought it was funny when a poster said that people shouldn't transfer for the "name," because that is a big reason I am considering the transfer -- the "name" and T14 status. To be honest I like my current school fine, but its not even a Tier-1. Lets say the market goes south again, demand for new hires goes down, and summer associates at XYZ firm don't get offers. If I stay at current school, I'm screwed, even at top 5%. At that point, I will be kicking myself in the ass for the decision to stay.

Any takers on this?

If it's gonna cost you more money at your new school, I would not transfer if you can't participate in OCI. If the cost is comparable, it's a toss-up, but I still probably wouldn't do it because of the OCI thing. That's ridiculous that they won't let you participate.

AlvinJames wrote:There is always the possibility that I can still do OCI at my current school and then transfer... so all is not lost in that respect. Since I can't do OCI at Cornell, I will end up doing OCI at current school either way. May be weird, but its my only option.

I thought it was funny when a poster said that people shouldn't transfer for the "name," because that is a big reason I am considering the transfer -- the "name" and T14 status. To be honest I like my current school fine, but its not even a Tier-1. Lets say the market goes south again, demand for new hires goes down, and summer associates at XYZ firm don't get offers. If I stay at current school, I'm screwed, even at top 5%. At that point, I will be kicking myself in the ass for the decision to stay.

Any takers on this?

I'd do this, particularly in light of the fact that you want biglaw and the fact that you aren't concerned about the $50k in incremental tuition.

Sounds like BLS ,Hofstra, or St. Johns, I have a friend who is top 15% at Hofstra and transferring to Cornell this fall. Go with your gut. The name says it all. 10 years from now when someone asks what law school did you go to they won't care that you went for almost free.

Go to Cornell and work your butt off to get a great SA. People shouldn't solely rely on OCI for jobs anyway.

blacklawboss wrote:Sounds like BLS ,Hofstra, or St. Johns, I have a friend who is top 15% at Hofstra and transferring to Cornell this fall. Go with your gut. The name says it all. 10 years from now when someone asks what law school did you go to they won't care that you went for almost free.

Wow. Is cornell easier to get into as a transfer than GULC?

blacklawboss wrote:Sounds like BLS ,Hofstra, or St. Johns, I have a friend who is top 15% at Hofstra and transferring to Cornell this fall. Go with your gut. The name says it all. 10 years from now when someone asks what law school did you go to they won't care that you went for almost free.

Yes and no. It's a proven fact that the value of an elite degree dissipates over time. Essentially, if you do not get a good job immediately (or soon after) graduation (Big Gov, Big Law, Fed Clerk, National Organizations, National Companies), you are in the same boat as people who didn't go to said elite school.

The whole point of transferring is to do OCI. If the OP cannot do the largest OCI session, which contains the most "good job" employers, the added value of transferring really isn't there. If you add that to the fact that the OP is already in the top 10% at an okay school, transferring seems like a bad idea.

If the OP cannot get big law in NYC with top 10% (law review/moot court) from BLS/Hofstra/St. Johns, odds are the OP wouldn't get it from Cornell even if the OP could do the largest OCI session.

I would stay. If you are top 10% at the NY T2 school, you will have at least some big law interview opportunities. Often firms will interview only top 10% candidates at T2 schools. Being shut out of August OCI at Cornell would be a HUGE concern for me in transferring. Not to mention the additional debt that would be incurred. I know as a 0L or a 1L the idea of a Cornell degree is quite sexy and overshadows a lot of other considerations, but OCI is where big firms jobs happen; having to hustle for one after OCI is like swimming against the current. As a former transfer student (but I was T20 -> T14, not T2 -> T14), I certainly understand the allure of graduating from a more highly ranked school, but if you incur significant more debt in the process and get shut out of OCI, it could be a disaster in retrospect. I was able to incur no more debt when I transferred and was able to participate in august OCI, so for me it was a no-brainer. But those two things really shouldn't be brushed aside here. I'm not sure that the majority of posters on this site actually understand the difficulty of getting a big law job outside of the OCI track method, no matter how qualified or personable a candidate you are - there simply aren't spots and the supply of qualified candidates is just so much larger than the demand.