Can you say no to HLS? Forum

[Peeblepop]

I go to a T20 and finished at the tippity top of my class. I'm on close to a full ride. Threw some transfer apps out and got accepted to HLS. I have almost no idea what I want to do with my law degree/life. I'd love to be a prof, but the odds of that are slim no matter what, so I can't rely on it.
Should I stay or should I go now?

[ndirish2010]

Yeah, I'd stay. Though it's not the wrong decision to go, you should get a good job where you are now with a lot less (or almost no) debt. Unless you get need based aid from HLS.

[CreativityKing]

I said no.

Every situation is different, though. Good luck with your decision.

[vanwinkle]

Of course you can say no. And if you like where you are, and you're getting that much in financial aid, there's nothing wrong with doing so.

[Peeblepop]

Yeah, I'd stay. Though it's not the wrong decision to go, you should get a good job where you are now with a lot less (or almost no) debt. Unless you get need based aid from HLS.

I'd get some need based aid from HLS for sure. Either way, I'll be accruing at least 50k in debt over the next 2 years at my current school (CoL+some tuition). That's compared to the 100k I'd build up if I transfer.

edit for math fail

[DoubleChecks]

guess it does depend. how do you like your current geographic market? are you willing to work their post-grad? not sure which T20 you're talking about, so you might be slightly more limited geographically (but maybe not).

how much do you care about intangibles (i.e. networking connections, H-bomb, etc.)?

wait, you'd accrue $150k for the last 2 yrs of law school at HLS? even with some fin aid?

[Peeblepop]

guess it does depend. how do you like your current geographic market? are you willing to work their post-grad? not sure which T20 you're talking about, so you might be slightly more limited geographically (but maybe not).

how much do you care about intangibles (i.e. networking connections, H-bomb, etc.)?

wait, you'd accrue $150k for the last 2 yrs of law school at HLS? even with some fin aid?

Whoops, you're right. Closer to 100k with financial aid. The T20 I'm has some solid mid west options, which I wouldn't hate. Obviously the H-bomb is awesome. Even if i hate being a lawyer and decide to open a fruit stand, which I might... the H-bomb stays with you forever.

[keg411]

guess it does depend. how do you like your current geographic market? are you willing to work their post-grad? not sure which T20 you're talking about, so you might be slightly more limited geographically (but maybe not).

how much do you care about intangibles (i.e. networking connections, H-bomb, etc.)?

wait, you'd accrue $150k for the last 2 yrs of law school at HLS? even with some fin aid?

Whoops, you're right. Closer to 100k with financial aid. The T20 I'm has some solid mid west options, which I wouldn't hate. Obviously the H-bomb is awesome. Even if I hate being a lawyer and decide to open a fruit stand, which I might... the H-bomb stays with you forever.

I'd pick Harvard over the top of the class at WUSTL if you're not from and don't want to stay in the midwest. (I'm guessing WUSTL since you say your school has "solid midwest options"). Also, you should think better for yourself than having options that you "wouldn't hate" .

[cobrachailatte]

I go to a T20 and finished at the tippity top of my class. I'm on close to a full ride. Threw some transfer apps out and got accepted to HLS. I have almost no idea what I want to do with my law degree/life. I'd love to be a prof, but the odds of that are slim no matter what, so I can't rely on it.
Should I stay or should I go now?

If you go there will be trouble, and if you stay it could be double, so come on and let us know, are you prepared for big HLS student loan debt if you go?

[bhan87]

Are you currently located in a market you love? Does your school attract a lot of big firms in the area to OCI? Do you just hate debt? There are plenty of reasons that can compel you to say no, but there are equally plenty of reasons to say yes to HLS. It really depends on your situation and what you value the most.

I personally would go to HLS because graduating with a Harvard degree is something that will stay with you for awhile. And, it's one of the most portable degrees you can get, so you could probably go back to the market you're currently living in.

[D.Wilde]

Are you currently located in a market you love? Does your school attract a lot of big firms in the area to OCI? Do you just hate debt? There are plenty of reasons that can compel you to say no, but there are equally plenty of reasons to say yes to HLS. It really depends on your situation and what you value the most.

I personally would go to HLS because graduating with a Harvard degree is something that will stay with you for awhile. And, it's one of the most portable degrees you can get, so you could probably go back to the market you're currently living in.

This. I recommend transferring. Either way, you shouldn't have a problem paying off the debt, and for the rest of your life every client and potential employer will see that you graduated from Harvard Law School.

[d34d9823]

I voted "yes, you can say no" 'cause you can. There's nothing wrong with that decision. I'd be gone in a heartbeat though.

[Peeblepop]

What about the idea that if I stay, I'm almost guaranteed a COA clerkship and the prestige and future economic value (50k signing bonus plus pick of washigton boutiques) is more than the value of H on it's own. Some might say that I can still clerk from H but it's gonna be harder. At the end of the day, you don't see many academics w/out law review or clerkships, nor do you see many elite litgators.

[wiglaf1228]

You are never 'almost guaranteed' a COA clerkship (or at least, a 'prestigious' one), especially from a school that is not Yale.

[sunynp]

There is another thread where a guy from NYU with LR decided to turn down Harvard. So it is possible to say no, if you are in a better position now then you would be from Harvard.

NYU LR

[of Benito Cereno]

You are never 'almost guaranteed' a COA clerkship (or at least, a 'prestigious' one), especially from a school that is not Yale.

I'd say a student ranked in the top ten at vanderbilt, washu, minnesota, usc, ucla would have very very good chances of getting a COA clerkship on the local COA. Better than a middle of the road HLS student... transfers at H just don't seem to do all that well for clerking. Everyone wants to clerk at harvard but a transfer will not only not be on LR but will likely not have any good faculty relationships and little chance of an editorial board position on a secondary. That being said, lacking LR, tippy top grades, and any real relationships at my school I decided to transfer. But in your position I'd stay.... oh, you're at WUSTL. Yea, then you are in a great position for a COA. I imagine that if you are one of the top 10 students there you stand an amazing chance on the 8th circuit and a really solid chance on the 7th circuit. ugh I wish I could do a COA.

[wiglaf1228]

I guess it depends on what you mean by 'very good chances.' I know at a couple of those schools you mentioned, only about 10-15 graduates/recent grads are able to clerk at all, and the majority at the district court level. And yes, absolutely all are at the local circuit, not the more competitive ones. Maybe that is not true at all Top 20's but it's true of at least a few.

[random5483]

Yes, you can say no.
No, it usually is better not to say no.
In your situation, I don't know what I would do. I would probably lean towards transferring.

[LogosEther]

I vote yes you can say no. Still, I'd go. Once in a lifetime chance, and you won't even have to take out too much $ for it.

Also, I think it depends on if you want to work/live where your T20 is. If you are certain that you do, then that's a big plus for staying. If you will at all benefit from a national reputation, then you should really consider that.

[Fishmouse]

Wasn't the deadline to email JR with a decision yesterday?

[D.Wilde]

You are never 'almost guaranteed' a COA clerkship (or at least, a 'prestigious' one), especially from a school that is not Yale.

Everyone wants to clerk at harvard but a transfer will not only not be on LR but will likely not have any good faculty relationships and little chance of an editorial board position on a secondary. That being said, lacking LR, tippy top grades, and any real relationships at my school I decided to transfer.

Speaking simply from my own experience, my thoughts differ from the above...

First, it is possible (extremely unlikely, but possible) that a transfer can make LR at Harvard. Second, I found it incredibly easy as a transfer to make great relationships with important, prestigious faculty members. Personally, I have two recs going out from "important" HLS profs, one of whom actually recommended that I apply to clerk and volunteered to write my LOR without my even asking. Third, as far as I know almost every transfer from last year's class who wanted to be is an editor of a secondary journal.

[habeas__corpus]

I would say yes you can, depending on your circumstances, but I for one said yes to Harvard (transferring in this fall - T20, top 1%). It is by far the best choice for me and what I want to do. Best of luck to you.

[thelawguy]

I say no you cant say no.

While you may have equal options from your current school if you remain at the tippity top of the class there is no guarantee you will do so. All it takes is one bad class/final and you can ruin yourself. You wouldn't be the first person to get a b- or worse in a class like corporations or tax. Then your whole reason for staying is lost.

Having a HLS degree is immeasurable. It will increase your chances of partnership or if you want to leave big law after a few years it will open doors to in-house opportunities that WUSTL will not.

Two Quick anecdotal stories...

I had a friend who transferred from top-20 (was #1 in his class) to Harvard and he was able to get onto a secondary journal and is now clerking on the west coast.

I transferred from t2 to top20 and have had no problem developing relationships with profs, becoming an RA during the school year, and getting clerkship LORs


I say go... the debt is scary but definitely worth it.

[vanwinkle]

Having a HLS degree is immeasurable. It will increase your chances of partnership

Where does this keep coming from? Is there some particular reason people believe this is true?

[kdw94780]

You are never 'almost guaranteed' a COA clerkship (or at least, a 'prestigious' one), especially from a school that is not Yale.

I'd say a student ranked in the top ten at vanderbilt, washu, minnesota, usc, ucla would have very very good chances of getting a COA clerkship on the local COA. Better than a middle of the road HLS student... transfers at H just don't seem to do all that well for clerking. Everyone wants to clerk at harvard but a transfer will not only not be on LR but will likely not have any good faculty relationships and little chance of an editorial board position on a secondary. That being said, lacking LR, tippy top grades, and any http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/p ... 4e4ffbreal relationships at my school I decided to transfer. But in your position I'd stay.... oh, you're at WUSTL. Yea, then you are in a great position for a COA. I imagine that if you are one of the top 10 students there you stand an amazing chance on the 8th circuit and a really solid chance on the 7th circuit. ugh I wish I could do a COA.

http://law.wustl.edu/news/pages.aspx?id=8269

Geez, at Wustl, grads also obtained COA clerkships at the DC circuit, 10th, 6th, 5th, 9th for this past clerkship year. Nothing compared to HLS but still I get annoyed with people thinking just cuz Wustl is in Stl that it's limited to IL and MO...do your research first before you spat out words of wisdom.